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Rape of a 38 year old on Tengstrasse in Schwabing

6.20am Saturday 05.Aug.2006

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > South Germany > Munich > Munich news
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tigress
Here is the press release from the police web site: 38-jährige Münchner von einem unbekannten Mann vergewaltigt

Thought I would post it here as it was not far from The Arc, and at that time of day I'm guessing there might have been a few TTers on their way home who might have seen or noticed something. At the time it may have meant nothing but could actually be of help in catching this guy.

The attacker is a German male and described as 30/40 years old and slim. She was attacked from behind and so couldn't tell anything more about him. The attack took place on Tengstrasse in the playground of the Alten Nördlichen Friedhof - the cemetery round the corner from The Arc.

If you saw or remember anything that could help please tell the police.
UrbanAngel
*meeps*
bern
Hits a bit close to home...I've walked home from the Arc many times at stupid o'clock. Didn't think rape was something I really had to worry about here...Back home, sure, but here...?
Eleanor Rigby
I think that unfortunately these kinds of things are kept fairly hush-hush. The papers may cover it but you really have to dig. A good friend of my coworker shot her 4 year old son and then jumped off a building about a month ago right in taufkirchen and because of the shocking nature of the story I expected to find it splashed all over the papers the next day. I barely found mention of it.

So don't kid yourself into thinking crime doesn't happen here. It does, it just tends not to get the press coverage that it does in other cities.
UrbanAngel
Shit, I read about that! It was in 2 different papers I read, with pictures of the building et al.
Owain Glyndwr
Rape and other crime certainly happens here in Munich. ER is right, they certainly keep it low key in reporting but also the actual crime rates are much lower than in comparibaly sized cities elsewhere in the world. The two combined give you a sense of security that nothing can possibly happen, which is perhaps dangerous because people stop being carefull.
parnell
@ ER :
Um why did she do it ?
An ex gf's Dad committed suicide in a Cathedral long time ago (shooting) cos her Mom was having an affair with one of his workers - was splashed all over Bild - they weren't very happy about it.

The Brandt & Mewes case is an example which I feel should not have got exposure - such luridity just encourages society to get more fucked up.
Eleanor Rigby
As far as we know it had something to do with being in too much debt. Apparently they were coming to evict her or collect on some big payment that day.
canuck
Shite. That's one block away from where I used to live. I walked back from the Arc countless times through the cemetery late at night, and it always felt a bit creepy.
Inflatablewoman
QUOTE (bern @ Aug 8 2006, 11:03 am) *
Back home, sure, but here...?

QUOTE (Eleanor Rigby @ Aug 8 2006, 11:07 am) *
I think that unfortunately these kinds of things are kept fairly hush-hush.

Of course it happens. I guess its a good example of the culture of fear that is persistent in the US that you think its a LOT more likely back there. This shit unfortunately happens everywhere.

Rape crime statistics for US and Germany
Bubble Gum
I walked past that playground and graveyard two weeks at around midnight, alone. Scary shit. unsure.gif
Owain Glyndwr
QUOTE (Inflatablewoman @ Aug 8 2006, 11:18 am) *

if i read that correctly, there are three times as many rapes per 1.000 people in the US than in Germany.
tigress
I know, I live just round the corner from the arc and I always walk home alone at night/stupid o'clock am from wherever Ive been, M.Freiheit, schwabing, centre of town.

Always feel safe but am also still on my guard as to if there is anyone else around, are they walking in my direction, how far away are they, are they catching up etc. But still, you just never know and hearing about this being so close to home ... It wont stop me from walking home alone at night but might just stop me wearing stoopid shoes I couldnt run in if needed!
PapaLazarou
QUOTE (Eleanor Rigby @ Aug 8 2006, 11:07 am) *
The papers may cover it but you really have to dig.

Think that depends what newspaper one reads. The SZ is a good all-round paper; newspapers like the BILD are just full of shitty celeb stories and nude people. (Good for sport though)

No place is absolutely crime-free so whilst crime is certainly lower in Munich, one is never completely free from risk of any crime.
sarabyrd
QUOTE (Eleanor Rigby @ Aug 8 2006, 10:07 am) *
A good friend of my coworker shot her 4 year old son and then jumped off a building about a month ago right in taufkirchen and because of the shocking nature of the story I expected to find it splashed all over the papers the next day. I barely found mention of it.

It did. The Süddeutsche Zeitung reported on it for two days, withholding her first name in the first article and then referring to her as Silvia W. Just yesterday a psychologist criticized the events leading up to her suicide and how offering help to people in debt is not enough, you have to contact them personally. He also demanded that the bailiff should be in touch with a social worker before the date of the eviction so that such scenes can be avoided in future. (Sorry, it's long and German but interesting reading. I can't link to it either.)

QUOTE
Selbstmord als ¸¸Kollateralschaden"
Der Psychologe Daniel Bove kritisiert das Vorgehen bei Wohnungsräumungen

Am Morgen des 26. Juni steht Silvia W. auf einer Balkonbrüstung im achten Stock eines Hochhauses in Taufkirchen. Vor den Augen von Rettungskräften, Nachbarn und der Gerichtsvollzieherin springt die 39-Jährige in die Tiefe. Am Abend zuvor hatte sie ihren dreijährigen Sohn getötet. Die Frau war allein erziehend, hatte Probleme mit dem gewalttätigen Vater des Kindes, sie war arbeitslos, finanziell am Ende und sollte zwangsgeräumt werden. ¸¸Wir haben versucht, ihr zu helfen, aber sie hat auf keine Angebote reagiert", hieß es damals von Seiten der Gemeinde. Eine Aussage, die den Münchner Psychologen Daniel Bove auf die Palme bringt. Er wirft den Behörden vor, derartige Vorkommnisse ¸¸als Kollateralschäden unseres Justizsystems in Kauf zu nehmen" und fordert effektivere Hilfsmaßnahmen. Amtsgerichtspräsident Gerhard Zierl findet derartige Kritik ¸¸unangemessen". Derweilen schlagen Beratungsstellen Alarm: Die Schwelle zur Armut sei niedriger geworden. Immer mehr Frauen seien vom sozialen Abstieg bedroht.

Der Tod von Silvia W. und die Reaktionen im Anschluss hatten Daniel Bove, Facharzt für Psychiatrie und Psychotherapie, ¸¸richtig geärgert". In einem Brief wandte er sich an den Münchner Amtsgerichtspräsidenten Gerhard Zierl. ¸¸Ein Mensch, der jede Hilfe ablehnt (...) ist per se immer psychiatrisch erkrankt", argumentiert er. In solchen Fällen sollte man schon im Vorfeld einen Psychiater hinzuziehen, ¸¸statt nach der Tat überflüssigerweise drei Kriseninterventionsteams mit der Betreuung von Zeugen zu beschäftigen". Wenn man wirklich wolle, ¸¸dann kommt man auch an die Leute ran", sagt Bove. Da reiche es nicht aus, einen Zettel mit einem Hilfsangebot in den Briefkasten zu werfen. Ein Depressiver könne in seinem Gefühl der völligen Ausweglosigkeit gar nicht mehr reagieren. ¸¸Man muss diese Leute an die Hand nehmen - auch wenn sie nicht wollen." Wenn beispielsweise ein Straftäter vor Gericht erscheinen sollte, dann werden sämtliche Hebel in Bewegung gesetzt, um an den Menschen ranzukommen. Gehe es darum, einem psychisch kranken Menschen zu helfen, ¸¸dann sind wir zu zurückhaltend".

¸¸Angekündigte Hinrichtung"

Deshalb schlug Bove dem Amtsgerichtspräsidenten vor, in derartigen Fällen ¸¸frühzeitig, regelhaft und gegebenenfalls auch notfallmäßig einen Psychiater und einen Sozialarbeiter hinzuzuziehen". Schon bevor der Gerichtsvollzieher an der Tür klingle (¸¸für Silvia W. war das wie eine angekündigte Hinrichtung", so Bove), solle man betreuungsrechtliche oder unterbringungsrechtliche Schritte erwägen. ¸¸Bitte diskutieren Sie den Fall doch noch einmal im zuständigen Kreise", bat Facharzt Bove.

Zierls Antwort darauf war kurz und knapp: Man habe vor der Räumung Mitteilung an die Sozialbehörden gemacht, die sich um Unterstützungsmaßnahmen bemüht hätten. Die Annahme, man würde derart tragische Vorfälle als ¸¸Kollateralschaden in Kauf nehmen", sei unangemessen. Und: ¸¸Mit vorzüglicher Hochachtung."

Bove hat Zierl nicht mehr geantwortet. Er hätte ihm noch schreiben können, dass er durch psychologische Hilfe vor kurzem eine Münchner Familie vor einem ähnlichen Schicksal bewahren konnte. Dass sie den Weg zu ihm fanden, war vermutlich schon ein Kraftakt. Denn wer einmal in der sozialen Spirale auf dem Weg nach unten ist, der tue sich schwer, ¸¸die Scham zu überwinden und um Hilfe zu bitten", sagt Roswitha Kufler vom Sozialdienst Katholischer Frauen in München. Der Verein gilt als Anlaufstelle für Frauen in Notsituationen. Für Frauen, die Angst haben, ihre Wohnung zu verlieren, oder bereits obdachlos sind. Und das sind nach den Worten von Kufler immer mehr Frauen. Der Verein vermittelt kurzfristig Wohnungen, berät und klärt beispielsweise auch, wie eventuell Mietschulden übernommen werden können.

¸¸Die finanzielle Notlage der Frauen ist meist groß", sagt Roswitha Kufler. Hinzu komme oft, dass die Frauen allein erziehend sind, keine Arbeit haben und auch keine bekommen, weil sich Kinderbetreuungs- und Arbeitszeit nicht organisieren ließen. Dann gebe es noch Schwierigkeiten, den Unterhalt vom Vater zu erhalten. ¸¸Die Alltagsbewältigung wird für diese Frauen immens schwierig. Gleichzeitig werden die gesetzlichen Hilfen immer weniger." Früher, so erzählt sie, habe es beispielsweise einmalige Hilfen in Höhe von 100 bis 200 Euro für Schulbedarf und Kleidung gegeben. Jetzt werde das in einer monatlichen Pauschale von 30 Euro abgegolten. ¸¸Das führt völlig am Alltag vorbei", sagt Kufler, ¸¸allein schon, wenn man an die Lebenshaltungskosten seit der Euro-Umstellung denkt."

Eine Alleinerziehende mit einem Kind erhalte nach Hartz IV 676 Euro im Monat. Davon muss sie die laufenden Kosten wie zum Beispiel Strom, Telefon, Fahrtgeld, Kleidung und Lebensmittel bezahlen. Zudem werden die 676 Euro auch noch auf das Kindergeld und die Unterhaltszahlungen angerechnet. Kaffeetrinken, ins Kino gehen - derartige Freizeitvergnügen geraten zum Luxus. ¸¸Wer sich das nicht mehr leisten kann, verliert schnell die sozialen Kontakte, zieht sich zurück." Die Frauen vereinsamen, die Freunde sind hilflos. ¸¸Und heutzutage muss eh jeder schauen, wo er selbst bleibt."

Einzelfälle? Bei weitem nicht. Im letzten Jahr kümmerte sich der Sozialdienst um 400 Frauen in München. Tendenz: steigend. Es sind Frauen, die aus sozial schwachem Milieu stammen, aber auch solche, die einen tollen Job hatten und durch Krankheit oder Trennung die Fahrt nach unten angetreten haben. ¸¸So ein Schicksal", sagt Roswitha Kufler, ¸¸kann heute wirklich jeden treffen." Susi Wimmer

Quelle: Süddeutsche Zeitung
Nr.180, Montag, den 07. August 2006 , Seite 53
Inflatablewoman
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Aug 8 2006, 11:28 am) *
if i read that correctly, there are three times as many rapes per 1.000 people in the US than in Germany.

You could read it that way. Also you could read it as...

Rapes (per capita)
US - 0.0003 per person
German - 0.0001 per person

Not much of a difference when you look at it that way. mellow.gif
UrbanAngel
QUOTE (UrbanAngel @ Aug 8 2006, 11:08 am) *
Shit, I read about that! It was in 2 different papers I read, with pictures of the building et al.

iirc I saw it on the back of someone's Bild in the SBahn, and the other paper was the AZ I *thinK*.
Eleanor Rigby
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Aug 8 2006, 11:42 am) *
It did. The Süddeutsche Zeitung reported on it for two days, withholding her first name in the first article and then referring to her as Silvia W. Just yesterday a psychologist criticized the events leading up to her suicide and how offering help to people in debt is not enough, you have to contact them personally. He also demanded that the bailiff should be in touch with a social worker before the date of the eviction so that such scenes can be avoided in future. (Sorry, it's long and German but interesting reading. I can't link to it either.)

I didn't say it wasn't mentioned, I just expected there to be a lot more uproar about it. A tragedy of that magnitude and I had to search to find information about it.
cinzia
QUOTE (Inflatablewoman @ Aug 8 2006, 11:45 am) *
You could read it that way. Also you could read it as...

Rapes (per capita)
US - 0.0003 per person
German - 0.0001 per person

It seems the numbers would be higher if you went with "per female person."
Owain Glyndwr
yes then it would 0,0006 and 0,0002 rapes per woman.
UrbanAngel
So you're disregarding male rape, Cinzia?
hams
ER - I heard about it at the time and just thought it was so tragic.

I have been rather remiss since living in Munich, also of the impression that I could let my guard down, whereas in London I'm aware of everything that's going on around me with re. to my personal safety. I guess it's time to get the antennae out again.
Kay
QUOTE (Inflatablewoman @ Aug 8 2006, 11:45 am) *
Rapes (per capita)
US - 0.0003 per person
German - 0.0001 per person

If it's per 1,000 inhabitants, shouldn't that be 0.003 and 0.001? unsure.gif
Owain Glyndwr
no. 0.301318 divided by 1.000 = 0.000301318 or 0.0003.

Obviousoly your maths aren't as good as your English grammar skills
Kay
Still better than your spelling. wink.gif
arshoo
just saw the link there and am surprised to find so many "developed" countries that are high on the list. Oz, Canada, US, UK...

I would have imagined more african nations there (SA was no surprise)
Owain Glyndwr
i don't claim to be the world's expert though Kay.

What i found astounding was the rape stats of Canada v US. I always imagined crime to be lower in Canada, especially for violent crime but they have well over twice as many rapes per 1.000 than the US and five times as many as Germany!
Owain Glyndwr
I think if you included stats for rapes that go unreported the countries might even up considerably.
Bell the cat
QUOTE (arshoo @ Aug 8 2006, 12:03 pm) *
just saw the link there and am surprised to find so many "developed" countries that are high on the list. Oz, Canada, US, UK...

I would have imagined more african nations there (SA was no surprise)

I think that it is extremely difficult to compare statistics like these between societies with effective police forces and generally feminist principles prevailing in society and countries with corrupt or ineffective police and women brutally discriminated against.
Inflatablewoman
QUOTE (arshoo @ Aug 8 2006, 12:03 pm) *
just saw the link there and am surprised to find so many "developed" countries that are high on the list. Oz, Canada, US, UK...

I would have imagined more african nations there (SA was no surprise)

As nationmaster mentions...

QUOTE
DEFINITION: Total recorded rapes. Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population.
hams
Slight tangent, but this whole thing has got me thinking in my London frame of mind and so I ask whether anyone knows of whether Rohypnol i.e. the date rape drug has reared its ugly head in Munich or Germany as a whole?

I would do a search but don't think my German would be up to understanding any of the relevant articles.
Eleanor Rigby
Sorry guys, but I don't think you can get too excited about any of your statistics on rape. These statistics only reflect how many people per thousand reported rape and the majority of rapes that occur in any country do not get reported. The statistics are in no way an accurate reflection of actual incidence of rape.
Sin
QUOTE (Owain Glyndwr @ Aug 8 2006, 11:55 am) *
yes then it would 0,0006 and 0,0002 rapes per woman.

Unless men rape more men in the US.
julia
I thought München was a "Toytown" and such things do not happen here... sad.gif

Exactly in the area of the Arc! Nah, great.
Hm, but I am sure there must be at least one gun shop somewhere in München... hopefully they have those little tiny gas sprays... it fits even into a small bag or into the pocket of one's coat - very much lady-like stuff... I used to carry one all the time with me, in Bucharest (never used it, thank God).
Well, just an idea for scared ladies who cannot do Karate. wink.gif

As of date rape drugs... one easy, preventive solution here: don't drink!
MajorBummer
Wow! South Africa actually made it to #1! We are truly world-class! dry.gif
I guess we should blame that on the Apartheid as well.
sarabyrd
1 rape per woman is 1 too many.
cinzia
QUOTE (UrbanAngel @ Aug 8 2006, 11:55 am) *
So you're disregarding male rape, Cinzia?

Um, just to set the record straight, no.

But I do think it's considerably rarer than male/female rape. And probably also reported less, and we're talking about statistics of reported rapes.
profundo
QUOTE (julia @ Aug 8 2006, 1:00 pm) *
I thought München was a "Toytown" and such things do not happen here...

Actually, there is just good litter awareness here. The rest is false press reporting only sunshine and candy apple smiles. In fact, we should delete this thread, right? ph34r.gif That way, everyone will be lulled back into their lack of awareness that crap could happen to you.

QUOTE
Exactly in the area of the ol Arc! Nah, great.

Tengstr. is the exact location of a former TT hang out. I have stumbled home late many times on that exact street, under the cover of darkness inducing trees and have witnessed nice figured ladies with no regard to a hulking drunkards behind them fish in their purses for keys to their dimly lit doorways.

In otherwords, the street needs a bit more light. And ladies should walk with a friend when possible.
bucket06
Statistics are like words; reading them in isolation tells you nothing.

The numbers in the nationmaster list are low. You have as much chance of winning the lottery as of being raped on the street by a stranger (it's more likely at home by someone you know). Not the nicest way of putting it. One is extreme fortune and one is extreme misfortune.

The numbers for countries like Australia, Canada and New Zealand are relatively higher, but, as has been mentioned, this reflects that rapes in these countries are more likely to be reported. That's a good thing as it means the unfortunate victims of rape are not silent victims, but re-establish control of their lives by not being afraid to tell their stories and confront their attackers. People such as Tegan Wagner should be put on a pedastal for all to admire.

On the other hand, people such as Letterio Silvestri should be dragged through the gutter and humiliated.

Lastly, IW quoted the "culture of fear". While I find Michael Moore, Chomsky etc not to be the most balanced of reads, I can recommend (and lend) the book Cutlure of Fear by the more balanced Frank Furedi. In short, he argues that we worry about things that are unlikley to happen and by doing this we actually have an adverse affect on our lives. For example, driving your kids to school every day to avoid that 1 in 10 million chance of a paedophile taking them, instead of letting them get the 15 minutes healthy exercise, is an incorrect judgement of a risk balance.

Sympathise with the victim, but don't let your irrational fears get the better of you.
PapaLazarou
QUOTE (julia @ Aug 8 2006, 1:00 pm) *
I thought München was a "Toytown" and such things do not happen here...

Get the rose-coloured glasses off, crime is everywhere and you are always at risk. More rapes have been recorded this year in Munich (so far) than last year.
GreenTea
According to an article in last Thursday's TZ, police have now caught the rapist - a 44-year-old homeless man who was already known to them. He was identified as the rapist from a DNA analysis. He was arrested in the Nordendstrasse early last Monday evening.
Bart
Hope they cut his balls off.
DDBug
The scary thing for me is this is my "hood" - I've lived here (just on the other side of Hohenzollernplatz from where it happened and where they found him) for over 12 years now (longest I've lived anywhere, come to think of it) - and have had the odd night walking home from leopold strasse late, going out way before the sun came up, or just being out after dark.
I moved here because it felt safer than my previous places on Goethe platz and Implerstrasse.
Just goes to show - you have to be carefull no matter where you are I guess.
mere
yeah you have to be careful everywhere, but it's important to remember Rape can happen anywhere and just because it has happened one place doesn't mean it will there again. People are probably just worried and perhaps a bit shocked with the news, but things need to be kept in perspective. Rape can happen on a street, pub, or even in your parents basement.
bw3ttt
I just wonder if the US totals include male on male prison rape .. also, what's going on in Canada??
sarabyrd
With a heavy heart I must announce the verdict in the trial with ended last week: The man was acquitted. (story in Süddeutsche Zeitung, internet subscribers only)
This was seemingly an open-shut case, the victim told a straight forward story, the evidence was consistent with it, a term in jail was certain. The defendant's case was that the intercourse was consensual, he knew the victim's boyfriend and had a slight acquaintance with the victim herself.

QUOTE
Die Frau hatte behauptet, dass ein Mann sie am Tattag von hinten umfasst habe, als sie von einer Party nach Hause kam. Dann habe er sie in die kleine Parkanlage gedrängt und versucht, sie zu vergewaltigen. Allerdings war die Frau zu diesem Zeitpunkt schwer betrunken - 1,85 Promille ergaben spätere Bluttests. Stefan H. hingegen hatte eingeräumt, sexuellen Kontakt mit der Frau gehabt zu haben, jedoch mit ihrem Einverständnis

But two days into the trial a surprise witness contacted the defendant's lawyer: A paper carrier, who was coming home from his round, was walking his dog through the graveyard when he heard sounds and, coming around the corner, saw a couple engaged in intercourse. If he had had the impression that it was a rape situation he would have sicced his dog on the man, but the woman was moaning and saying, "Ja, das ist gut!"

QUOTE
Der Weg führte ihn auch durch die Parkanlage, in der der angebliche Tatort liegt. Der Zeuge berichtet auch in der Hauptverhandlung, er habe komische Geräusche gehört, und als er um die Ecke gebogen sei, lag da ein Mann mit entblößtem Hinterteil auf einer Frau am Boden. Aber nein, nach Vergewaltigung habe ihm das nicht ausgesehen, vielmehr habe die Frau lustvoll gestöhnt und gerufen "Ja, das ist gut".

He knew neither of the parties involved and had no reason to lie.
The DA rested the case, the defendant's lawyer supported the victim in believing that she was telling her subjective view of the incident, the judge stated that he would rather see 10 guilty culprits set free than jail one innocent man, true to the principle of in dubio pro reo.

QUOTE
So kam es gestern bei den Plädoyers zu einer absurden Situation: Der Staatsanwalt beantragte Freispruch - und Anwältin von Stetten verteidigte das angebliche Opfer. Sie glaube, sagte von Stetten, dass die Frau die Wahrheit sage. Allerdings ihre eigene, subjektive Wahrheit. Dann zerlegte die Verteidigerin die Aussage der Frau, machte auf Widersprüche und eine Spurenlage aufmerksam, die nicht zur Aussage passte. Dem schloss sich das Gericht zwar nicht an, aber weil die Beweise am Ende nicht ausreichten und Zweifel blieben, wurde Stefan H. freigesprochen. "Lieber zehn Schuldige laufen lassen", sagte Richter Noll später, "als einen Unschuldigen einsperren."

I know I am opening a can of worms, I am not happy with the whole constellation, I just wanted to tell the end of the story. The advocates of "See, she wanted it all the time!" and the "She was drunk and didn't know what she was doing!" faction can gladly get at each others' throats again, I wash my hands of the whole argument.
Owain Glyndwr
did you read the whole trial transcript or just the article from the SZ?
Small Town Boy
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Feb 4 2007, 11:21 am) *
the woman was moaning and saying, "Ja, das ist gut!"

This is why sex is better with English speakers.

On a more serious note, this highlights once again the problem with rape trials - it is so often the word of one person against the word of the other. Add in the fact that (in the UK) 80% of women reporting rape knew their attacker, and it's not surprising that the conviction rate for reported rapes is just 5%. This issue was raised just this week in Prime Minister's Questions.
Kay
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Feb 4 2007, 11:21 am) *
This was seemingly an open-shut case, the victim told a straight forward story, the evidence was consistent with it (...)

So did they just throw out all the evidence?
Hazza
So maybe then the guy was innocent and the sex was actually consentual and luckily for him, someone happened to pass by and verify this.

If that is the case, then why are you reporting the verdict 'with a heavy heart', Sarabyrd? Maybe she was drunk, maybe she regretted the whole incident in the morning. However if she consented at the time, the bloke didn't nothing wrong.
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