Who really won World War II?

Sophia Loren would pulverize just about any "hottie" out there today, she oozes class and sensuality.

Strangely enough I ave been to Germany. By your response I have to turn that question around, have you ever been to Italy?

Lies!

I thought people that age oozed things that certainly couldn't be called class and sensuality

Oh puhleaze, do you really want to go there? You don't need to go to Italy to get an idea, just drop by Zegna at Funfhoffen (sp?!) and drool.

Yes, I have. I love how people dress over there. really creative.

She's no spring chicken, but I would take her in her prime over 99% of what's out there today.

USA couldn't win a cuddly toy.

Def USSR/Brit combo.

p.s. belgium might have been a funny answer though.

It's like a baby seal walking towards the big bearded blokes with the clubs and saying "Hello, did you come here to play with me?". I can't watch.

Although Italians, very much like Germans, are VERY prone to wearing fuck ugly glasses. Granted, glasses never look good, but in Italy (and here) people wear monstrosities upon their noses.

I think what you see here in shops to what the peeps in Italy wear is not comparable

They (9/10) look fucking ricockulus

If Italians aren't good dressers then who is?

@keydeck
Don't underestimate my ninjaesque abilities. Especially when it comes to fashion

@timmeh
...seriously, do you know anything about fashion???

Oooh 4 minutes past 6. Time to go home. It's been fun y'all, have a good night!

Yup

Timmeh, I presume you are male - and you claim to know about fashion. Means you suck dicks mate. No straight bloke has any fucking clue.

Italy in penalty kicks.

USA [ 11 ] ** [25.58%]
United Kingdom [ 7 ] ** [16.28%]
Soviet Union [ 10 ] ** [23.26%]
Germany [ 3 ] ** [6.98%]
Japan [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
China [ 2 ] ** [4.65%]
Italy [ 1 ] ** [2.33%]
Switzerland [ 4 ] ** [9.30%]
France (if you click this please post so you can be identified) [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Boutros Boutros Gali [ 5 ] ** [11.63%]

8pm, polls over and we have a winner!

Who's fuckin' stupid idea was this then? Where was the "Nobody" option?

@Eurovol, we are loosing ground. Call up the reserves!

USA [ 12 ] ** [24.00%]
United Kingdom [ 9 ] ** [18.00%]
Soviet Union [ 12 ] ** [24.00%]
Germany [ 3 ] ** [6.00%]
Japan [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
China [ 2 ] ** [4.00%]
Italy [ 1 ] ** [2.00%]
Switzerland [ 6 ] ** [12.00%]
France (if you click this please post so you can be identified) [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Boutros Boutros Gali [ 5 ] ** [10.00%]

Right. I'm voting Japan because they look a bit left out on zero. Absurd fuckin' idea Jimbo. Lawyers???

I'm surprised Canada is not even on the list, without Canada the war might have been over before the Yanks ever showed up...

Wikipedia:
Between the fall of France in June 1940 and the German invasion of the USSR in June 1941, Canada was Great Britain's most important ally in the war, supplying Britain with urgently needed food, weapons, and war materials by naval convoys and airlifts, as well as pilots and planes who fought in the Battle of Britain and The Blitz.

Wikipedia:
Canadian forces had fought in almost every theatre of war and had made major contributions to the Battle of the Atlantic, the Combined Bomber Offensive, to the invasions of Sicily, Italy, Normandy, and to the subsequent liberation of Holland. Canadian production of war materiel, foodstuffs, and raw materials had been indispensable to the Commonwealth's war effort, as had been the Commonwealth Air Training Plan (still the largest air force training program in history).

Just sayin...

Can't. They are all in Iraq.

Too bad all wars can't be fought and won via popular poll.

I think society could learn something from the Eurovision Song Contest.

WHAT??? And let the Scandinavians actually win something that mattered??? Oh, goodness, no...

If only water pistols were allowed at the Eurovision Song Contest...

Hmm, can you say "the US won" if they're still fighting? Someone should tell us it's over!

Or by playing footie. Oh! No! Wait! I'm English.


What? That being deaf has its advantages.

I asked the same thing back a few pages!

Will this go to penalties ?

I put United Kingdom and should have put UK and her Dominions - though not strictly speaking a Dominion in 1939 I don't think, she was as good as. Voting for UK = a vote for Canada as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, anybody who voted anything other than Soviet Union is wrong - the Russians won it and that's that.

The Soviet Union is now ahead in the polls, and I haven't seen anyone give any kind of reason that they could be considered to have won.

umm history ?
Compare German casualties on Eastern Front with Western front - more than 10 to 1.
What's notable here is the lack of Russian members and STILL the USSR is coming out on top. Wonder how many non US votes voted US. Call a freekin apple an apple.

I'd bet if Israel was up there it'd have at least 2 votes as well.

EDIT: sine im using the britboard.de version of this site I can'T do a search to dig up the old links I had compiled from a US military statistician demonstrating conclusively that the war was almost exclusively a straight up USSR/Germany deal.

Argentina won 4:3 in extra-time.

500,000 dead Americans (388,000 Brits) does not tend to lend credence that the war was almost over by the time we got there.

Jan 26, 1942 - First American forces arrive in Great Britain.
July 9, 1942 - Germans begin a drive toward Stalingrad in the USSR.
Feb 2, 1943 - Germans surrender at Stalingrad in the first big defeat of Hitler's armies.
July 22, 1943 - Americans capture Palermo, Sicily.
Aug 23, 1943 - Soviet troops recapture Kharkov.
Aug 15, 1944 - Operation Dragoon begins (the Allied invasion of Southern France).
Jan 16, 1945 - U.S. 1st and 3rd Armies link up after a month long separation during the Battle of the Bulge.
Jan 17, 1945 - Soviet troops capture Warsaw.
Feb 13/14, 1945 - Dresden is destroyed by a firestorm after Allied bombing raids.
Aug 6, 1945 - First atomic bomb dropped, on Hiroshima, Japan.
Aug 8, 1945 - Soviets declare war on Japan and invade Manchuria.

Doesn't look like the Russians were winning either before the Americans got there. It took nearly a year of Americans fighting along side of the allied forces to do the needed damage. The Soviets did however follow Americas success with a shameless landgrab ploy!

Not one member of the Allied Forces could have done it alone, but without America, it wouldn't of happened either.

Bombing of Dresden - Should the Queen apologise?


So, I guess Hitler won it by losing it.

source please 500,000 US dead ???
And they call Goebbels the minister for propoganda...

Well look at the estimated casualties on the Eastern Front. If the Eastern Front had never of happened the war on the Western front would probably have been over before the Americans even joined in in force. Nothing can compare to the sheer brutality and ferocity of the fighting that went on there. An interesting and very disturbing read is Stalingrad by Anthony Beavers. Anyone who thinks that Britain and or America won the war really should go away and do some serious reading.

Casualties
The fighting involved millions of German and Soviet troops along a broad front. It was by far the deadliest single theatre of war in World War II, with over 5 million deaths on the Axis Forces, Soviet military deaths were about 10.6 million (out of which 2.6 million Soviets died in German captivity), and civilian deaths were about 14 to 17 million. The genocidal death toll was attributed to several factors, including brutal mistreatment of POWs and captured partisans by both sides, multiple atrocities by the Germans and the Soviets against the civilian population and each other, the wholesale use of weaponry on the battlefield against huge masses of infantry. The multiple battles, and most of all, the use of scorched earth tactics destroyed agricultural land, infrastructure, and whole towns, leaving much of the population homeless and without food.

Taken from Eastern Front

Eurovol. Interesting make reference to the "Battle of the Bulge". After one of the American flanks completely collapsed and they did a runner, Eisenhower sacked his U.S general and put Montgomery in charge of the whole lot. The US general was livid and threatned to resign (but didn't), Montgomery and his hand-picked officers pulled the US forces together and the day was saved.

I will quote a former American WWII combatant that I saw being interviewed on a documentary about the war.

"Well, we showed up and showed the Brits, God Bless 'em, how to parachute into the theatre, they showed us how to survive in combat (he then laughed), I sure as hell know who was teaching who the most valuable lesson...any idiot can jump out of plane but surviving in combat is a skill" .

So, there you have it. "Battle of the Bulge" fact that was ignored by Hollywood (but it was a good film) and testimony of an American chap that was actually a participant in WWII expressing who he thought had the most valuable role in the war.

Wibble. I chatted to my wifes uncle about Stalingrad as he was there from start to finish. It was quite fascinating!

I believe that figure includes the Pacific theater.

Considering he'd fucked up Market Garden and should've secured Antwerp in September, it was the least he could do, though some would say that German supply problems and an improvement in weather which allowed the US to take advantage of its air superiority and pick apart the Germans on the ground were the real reasons things turned around in the Ardennes.

P.S. I don't think that anyone can dispute the brutality and savagery on the Eastern front, however had the Germans been able to fight one on one against the Soviets, they would've probably kicked their asses too. Why could they not do that? Because they were being tied down on other fronts by the Allies.

Actually 1867, the first 4 provinces were formed into Canada, by the early 1900's almost all of Canada had joined confederation. Newfoundland was the last province in 1949.
Eventhough we are still in the Commonwealth, I still would not consider a vote for the UK as a vote for Canada- Canada lost many in both Wars supporting Britian.

Erm... beautiful list, but didn't u miss something like D-Day? Or maybe the Battle of Kursk (german-russian though, but was the critical battle towards the end). The low point of the american campaign is also missing: Ardennen.

The Soviets did the deal, they paid in blood. The soviets would have easily won without any military help of america (material support was vital for the first year though). Erverything else is historical misrepresentation and gloryfication. D-Day in it's succes was only possible since most of the experienced troops and material were bound on east front. The only one to blame about the landgrab ploy is the american government and especially Roosevelt in Jalta 1945, since he didn't have the balls to face Stalin and draw the line where he should have in Europe... and for the soviets taking advantage on the Japanese the last minute about some uninteresting islands... who cares?

I believe he is absolutely full of the brown stuff. and knows it.


You're right Jules , the Germans had been fearing all along the incredible might of the Western Allies and were therefore not committed to the Eastern Front.

How absolutely pathetic of the US members of this board to engage in such revisionism - of course it's shamefully and blatantly displayed in every US WW2 movie made.

http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html

German KIA, the West to 5.31.44: 20,000+
German MIA, the West to 5.31.44: 1,700+
German WIA, the West to 5.31.44: ??

German KIA, the West 6.06.44 - 11.30.44: 66,266
German MIA, the West 6.06.44 - 11.30.44: 338,933
German WIA, the West 6.06.44 - 11.30.44: 399,860

German KIA, Eastern Front 1941 - 11.30.44: 1,419,728
German MIA, Eastern Front 1941 - 11.30.44: 997.056
German WIA, Eastern Front 1941 - 11.30.44: 3,498,060

EDIT: As always least the Brits have no truck with such rubbish.

OK: where were the crack SS Panzer divisions - on the Western front or the Eastern?
And where were the numpty divisions (reserves)?

And as I said in my other post, Germany could've beaten Russia had it not been hampered by the war in the west.


That's one way of looking at it, anoter is that if the Germans had moved their panzers south from Calais to repel the attacks in Normandy D-Day would've possibly failed, without the aid of any experienced Ostfront troops.



Roosevelt was half-dead and unfortunately didn't trust Churchill's judgement on what had to be done with the Soviet Union.


Drawing the line? As if Stalin would've cared! Do you think he would've given a shit about sacrificing a few more million people in a war against the West in order to secure the empire he aspired to?

The point I am making is that had the Germans been able to unleash their full military might from day one exclusively on the Eastern front, things may have taken a very different turn.

But there wasn't much of a Western front when they attacked Russia, was there? The fighting was over, certainly for the tanks. There was some fighting in Africa & Norway (I think).

I was making an overall observation/comment, not something which was chronological (i.e. what the German order of battle on various fronts was in June '41). Again, this is all conjecture, including what I'm saying - I just wonder if things would not have turned out differently had the Germans been able to focus 100% on Russia.

Considering the majority of the Axis forces in the European Theatre were commited to the Eastern Front along with most of the experienced troops do you honestly think the Axis would have won if the Western Front hadn't happened? It certainly would have taken longer but I still think that a Russian victory would have happened eventually albeit at an even heavier cost to the people of Russia.

One of the reasons the Eastern Front failed was the Russian winter which the Germans were ill equipped to deal with. A severe lack of winter clothing meant many Germans died from the cold. When Paulus and the 6th Army held the whole of Stalingrad up to the Volga they were convinced they had pretty much won the battle for the city.

What they were not prepared for was the sheer number of Russian troops that had been amassed across the river. Along with this, the winter conditions, the lack of supplies, the fact that many German weapons, for example the MP40 barely worked in the winter conditions and that they were often forced to try and scavenge Russian weapons and clothing.

They were also having problems keeping supply routes open due to partisan activity behind German lines blowing up roads and railroads. Again the winter caused major supply problems.

Once the Russians started deploying and extensively using the Katyusha they were also far superior to the Germans in terms of artillery. Although not accurate they were good for saturation bombardment. They also had a far greater reserve of oil and military production rates were higher than those of Germany.

The Russians also used a scorched earth policy that made bringing in supplies even more crucial to the Germans.

@ JW

But the Germans ran into trouble straight away when there was no Western front. They simply didn't take enough ground in the first few months, giving the Russians the chance to move their production lines back behind the Urals.