Munich plans ban of highly pollutive vehicles

You can't do odd/even or 12345 etc schemes as would contravene EU law on free movement.

Canaryman, you ever done an objective test on the real cost of driving into Munich compared to the train?
You might be surprised...

Look dude, its nothing to do with me - blame DrivinWest. NASA have blatantly reverse engineered loads of cool alien shit, one of which is a pollution free energy source.
Mind you, they also have wicked super-advanced TV technology which would put you right out of business, so ita a bit of a double edged sword I'm afraid.

I for one am pretty shocked that they allow ANY car to pass the TÜV thingy without a catalytic converter! Isn't Germany supposed to be all super environmentally conscious? Catalytic converters have been mandatory in California for at least the last 20 years, and you won't get a smog certificate (or renewed registration) without one. The only exception being cars considered "classics" which I belíeve is pre-1975.

The Council has passed the motion, no, I repeat, NO exceptions are planned.

America, especially California were way ahead of Europe with car pollution controls. The cat was developed because of US emission laws. A positive by-product of this was the ending of Leaded petrol, because it damages the cat. The Germans were probably the first Europeans to adopt cats, although the Swedes had some sort of emission regulations in the early 80's. The cars they are talking about banning are old,built before 1992. This wouldn't have been a problem 20 years ago as cars didn't last 14 years! but modern cars go on for ever!

The last car I sold, six years ago, was 30 years old.

Anyone know if motorcycles are affected by the new rules?

There's always an exception, but really how many 1970's Ford Cortinas, (Taunus over here) do you see?

The typical design for hybrid cars are not the bubble concepts you've seen. They look fine to me...


Honda Accord Hybrid


Honda Civic Hybrid


Honda Civic Natural Gas Vehicle


Toyota Prius

There's been quite a wait time in the States for these vehicles (6 months to a year at dealerships). Worldwide, Americans are consuming 60% of Prius' produced. Bit of a status symbol to drive one around. These 4-door, 5 passenger hybrids compare quite well against the Smart cars and other 'tiny' vehicles in terms of fuel effieciency (50-60 MPG) and emissions output. Not shabby at all.

Hi,

Is there a web page that has information about the various EURO xx standards? I have a 1994 Lexus that has cats, and it is classified as a EURO I.

Thanks,

Ken

I worked for Toyota and they were always behind on emissions. The last Supra was not made for Europe because the cats were not clean enough so they said the costs of including the cats for Europe were too expensive etc etc. I will see if I can find a site for you

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22...le+Search&meta=

I really don't know, they weren't mentioned in any of the articles in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (my main source of info).
@ Ken:
Yep, right there in the first post, just click on the link:

interesting to see my own work ( the first graphic) being used on this website!

You're welcome, noisette (inserts friendly smilie).
The FDP is already clamoring for a "generous" catalogue of exceptions such as commercial trucks, oldtimers, handicapped persons' cars and cars belonging to low-income wage-earners who need a car to get to work. Sheeeeesh, I never thought much of the FDP but they're outdoing themselves now.

Like when has the FDP "Partei der besserverdiener" ever given a flying frig about people on low incomes!

What they are trying to do is prepare the ground for when the rules get tougher and tougher on cars generally. Then they can be clamouring that lawyers and immobilien maklers need a special exception to drive Porches down the Kaufingerstrasse!

Bloody nora. Are these like Mobile Homes?

They can make the laws as tough as they like, I will still drive a car of my choice. Take the UK for example. One of your heroes, Mr Prescott, told everyone that they should be driving smaller cars whilst having a government 4.0l Jag and a his own private 4.0l Jag. My car does more mpg, gives less emission but he hates me because it is an SUV. The fact is that I can afford one, afford to run it, like driving it and it is practical for me and my family. If he and other politicians led by example, more people might follow. The situation is just like the last DE government. The battle cry before they were elected was "never a Mercedes" and as soon they got into power, "where is my "S Class".

Instead of 60,000 vehicles up to 80,000 may be subject to the ban (German link). A list published by the Ministry for Trafic on Monday puts various vehicles equipped with a first generation catalysor into the most harmful category, increasing the number of vehicles prohibited to enter the city by one third.
Munich now faces a challenge: Discard the plans for the protective zone (an impossiblity in view of the Europe-wide debate on particulate matter) or exclude up to 100,000 vehicles (including those from the Munich environs) from the inner city. Exceptions will be made for fire engines, ambulances, deliveries to the Market Halls in Thalkirchen, low-income drivers who rely on their vehicles to earn a living and all motorcycles. A decision regarding oldtimers has not been reached yet.
Vehicles not subject to the ban must bear a sticker on their windshields; the red, yellow and green stickers will be available from the KVR from March 2007 on.

Fine by me.

Why should (often car-less) residents of inner Munich suffer emissions?
The EU annual limits are already breached by something like May!

Any driver that can REALLY claim to live in Knackerhausen with no public transport, why not drive to the various P+R stations around Munich.

I just followed that link from Sarabyrd and found:

"Ganz schlecht sieht es demnach für die Schlüsselnummern 00 bis 13, aber auch die 15 und 17 aus."

After looking at my Fahrzeugbrief I see the schlüsselnr. as a 4 digit number.
Can anyone enlighten me as to how I interpret this, or am I looking in the wrong place?

MT

Was your car first registered after October 2005? They changed the Fahrzeugschein about then.
new:

old:

MT, from what I can see the rule effects the following:

Benziner ohne geregelten Katalysator = Petrol cars without cat

Diesel unterhalb der Euro-2-Nor = Diesels with Euro 2 or below

(the Euro value will be on your car papers - Schlüsselnummern relate to the Euro norm: http://www.steuerlexikon-online.de/Kraftfa..._EuroNorm.html)

From the same artikel: "Sonderrechte genießen Motorradfahrer, die explizit von der Plakettenverordnung des Bundes ausgenommen sind."

So Motorbikes are OK

So the old Fahrzeugschein had a 6 digit Schlüsselnummer and the new have a 4, but the ones mentioned in the article are 2 digits:

"Ganz schlecht sieht es demnach für die Schlüsselnummern 00 bis 13, aber auch die 15 und 17 aus."

Any idea idea how these 2 digit numbers relate to the 4 or 6 digit number on the Fahrzeugschein?

Oh yeah, and why have they not decided about oldtimers yet? Surely these will be amongst the worst poluters?

@ MunichMag: Here you go - wiki - it's the last two digits of Schlüsselnummer zu 1 on your Kfz-Schein.

Afaik it's becasue although they are amongst the worst polluters, they are very small in number and have some "cultural value".

According to German wiki "oldtimers" must be at least 30 years old, i.e. first registered in 1976. I cannot see very many of them being driving into town on a daily basis, maybe that's why Munich hasn't bothered to ban them. Also, they can be quite an attraction when staging a rallye that might lead through town, and Munich doesn't want to forbid such publicity.

Thanks, sarabyrd, good to know my car's ok.

Yes it seems that they haven't agreed what to do here - Although I struggle to understand the logic (as well as the logic of people that assume that older cars are more environmentally unfriendly), a Porsche Cayenne that weighs 3 tons and drinks 25 litres is ok but a VW beetle not

Anything to reduce cars in the city centre is a good idea. They should introduce the conjection charge just like they did in London into Munich. City centres should be as car free as possible.

it is not about how much gas the car uses, but what comes out in the exhaust...

And am I correct in thinking that diesels give out far more of the "particulate matter" than petrols? I only wonder because *loads* of people seem to drive diesels here.

Yes Diesel does give out more particulate matter.By the way would it also not be better to make cars lighter so not as much petrol or diesel would needed to be used to get around?

The diesel vehicles are the biggest problem, especially small vans and trucks. Newer vehicles have a special filter, enabling them to fulfill the stricter norms.

Mine is a 22 year old diesel VW camper bus. TÃœV runs out in April. Seems a bit pointless renewing the TÃœV if this is true.

The new common rail diesels are very clean.

My old VW camper is also a worry if this is true. It's a petroleum distilate propelled vehicle, not a diesel but it is 25 years old and not exacery squeaky clean

MD exactly my view - Fuel consumption and vehicle size are increasing not decreasing despite what the car industry tries to pretend.

sarabyrd The "Russ" filter that your referring to is only fitted to some newer cars (and not all) however the govt has agreed to pay a One off payment for those who retro fit (around 50% off the cost) plus you get a different Euro class so pay less Tax

MAM - such bans will only be applied to the City Centre of selected City's - so I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm waiting for the day when the govt tells me I can't use my 2 stroke motorbike then I can be 100% sure that the lunatics have taken over the asylum

*likes the idea of filtering Russians*
We have a Rußfilter in our car, sure, it cost extra but now I'm getting the kick-back regarding taxes.

Motorcycles are exempt. Period.

Hutch, as for a congestion charge, roughly ALL of Munich within the Mittlerer will become chargeable for parking on the street after 2008. About €1 an hour IIRC.

Thanks for the information about the new and old Schlüsselnr. representation.

I was originally looking at the Fahrzeugbrief not fahrzeugschein.

I have now checked my fahrzeugschein and have indeed a 6 digit number: 010230

So from what people say, it looks like this is OK.

I know I have a CAT and the car was first regsitered in 2000 so I thought it would be OK, now it does look that way.

Thanks,
MT

For a new one for mine.Try www.reifendirekt.de and click on the Katylisator.They are not as expensive as you think.€ 190 for a new one for mine.
A certain car company is now looking of ways of burning the particulate waste in exhaust fumes within the engine.

Hi Mik,
I will be needing a new exhaust soon (not sure about the Cat - but maybe that too) so I checked that site but they don't have my model listed.

You'd think so, but the trend is totally in the other direction. People want their cars to be safer and have more "stuff", so there's no hope really.

Sorry Sgb27 but the new Xk 150 is aluminium the A8 is and the new Xj`s are as well.B.M.W. are going in to Aluminium and Mercedes too.Just as safe as Steel, which i could not believe myself.And a lot easier to recycle.bTW its all weldable aluminium normally W.I.G. or laser weldable.The new XK 150 actually won the Top Gear award this year

ADAC have a fairly clear PDF showing which cars can get which stickers.

To summarise messages already posted, the two digits you need to look for are on you Fahrzeugschein:

Old Fahrzeugschein (up to about Oct 2005):
Last two digits of six-digit Schlüsselnummer under 1.

New Fahrzeugschein (from about Oct 2005):
Last two digits of four-digit number under 14.1.

The law takes effect from 1.3.2007, but the bans may not happen immediately - Munich and Düsseldorf are expected in October 2007, Stuttgart and Karlsruhe in January 2008 and Berlin, Cologne, Frankfurt at some unspecified point.

FWIW, the ADAC is against it, as it doesn't address things like lorries and vans properly, and unfairly penalises older petrol-driven cars, which don't even produce the micro-particles they're trying to prevent.

Update: And the law is already hitting further problems. In contrast to the proposed smoking ban, this one is being sent back to the Federal Government for modification, as the cities/states feel their competencies are exceeded. Additionally, Munich wants an exemption for old G-KAT petrol-driven cars, for the same reason as the ADAC. The Federal Government, however, has no wish to rediscuss a law it's only just finished. Sueddeutsche article here (German).

Damn, our car has 0401 under section 14.1 . It HAS a cat though.

Does this mean I will not be able to drive it to our apartment (200m inside mittlerer ring) come October??? That pisses me off!

Sounds like you have one of the cars that Munich would like to exempt from the ban. Under current regulations, once a ban came in, you could be hit with €40 and a point on your licence each time you got caught in the designated zone, even if you live there.

According to my husband, who's german and has a better grasp of what the rule actually says than I do, our car, although it might originally fall under the ban, has a cat which puts it into the class that they're not planning on banning until 2010 (by which point we'll need a better car, anyway). We live just inside Mittlerer Ring, too, so it was a matter of some concern...

If I could point out the following sentence in the ADAC pdf: "Bei erfolgreicher Nachrüstung des Fahrzeuges können Autofahrer die Eingruppierung in eine bessere Schadstoffgruppe erreichen." If I understand it correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, it says that cars can be retrofitted in a way that improves their class. This seems to be what my husbands car had done to it some time ago. Somewhere on the paperwork it says the actual class of the car (Euro 2, IIRC), but I don't have the paperwork to look at at the moment to tell you where.

It's a classic coty v federal issue. Neither wants to get blames by people like Tom 17.