New Yorker thinking of moving to Munich

I'm a born and bred New Yorker married to a German citizen with 2 boys (4 and 8). My husband has an opportunity to work in the Munich area. The attraction for me is that I could quit my fairly stressful job as a lawyer and spend more time with my kids since living costs are so much less than in Manhattan. Do you think a city girl could enjoy the area? Is the MIS the best option for kids with just some German (they understand everything though) Is there a particular neighborhood that has more street life?

The kids will probably be fine - even in the German system, they will pick it up fairly quickly.
Can you deal with the loss of career, the housewife mentality that prevails here and the chance that your husband will "revert" to some German traits that you may not have had to deal with before?
Other than that - great beer, great weather, better and cheaper wine, better skiing, safe city, multicultural (for German standards), night life - well, everyone finds it different, this weekend is the weekend of street parties.

What do you mean by German traits? About the career I do think it may be difficult in terms of the shift in the relationship. While I think I would find a lot to keep me occupied and interesting I'm a little concerned that my stature would fall in my husband's eyes.

I didn't marry a German (German men and I just don't mix well, very explosive combination there) but I have seen, well, situations very similiar. Even with my mother when she married a really nice English guy. Now that they live in England and she is not working, their relationship has shifted. If you're worried about your stature in his eyes, then you may be suspecting something.
Darn it - I am not trying to freak anyone out or say not to come here - I doubt he will grow horns or anything, and there is lots to do here. I just get annoyed with the surprised look on people's faces when I am with my boys (just a year older than yours) and they find out I work full time, much less work at all. Gets on my nerves.
It's probably less of a change than moving from Manhattan to San Diego in a lot of ways. If that makes any sense...
(And no, I'm not even drinking wine tonight, just procrastinating on a job I have due in the morning...)

Ah, at least I am not alone!

Moving to another country, whether it be your husbands' homeland or not will change the dinamics of your relationship greatly. i worked until I moved here and now I am a stay at home mom. At first I wasn't sure I would like it but besides being lonely from time to time I do really like it. I like the feeling of safety Germany offers. It is a much slower paced life but it gives you time to enjoy your children and husband all that much more.
I would think the children would be fine in a state school. My son hardly spoke any German when we moved here and after two years is one of the top kids in is class . Mind you we don't live right in Munich but an hour away in a much smaller town. There was a thread on international students in the state school system you might want to have a look at.
Good luck with your decision.

I think that you'd find the jump from busy lawyer to stay at home mother a difficult one. Why not consider working here? Part-time perhaps? There is work to be found if you look.

Regarding schools, international schools are expensive and not located centrally so bear that in mind. There are many good centrally located schools and kindergartens. There are also several bilingual kindergartens. Where I live (Glockenbachviertal) we have a high ratio of kindergartens and an award winning primary school. Its a lively entertainment area but has loads of young families. In my buiding there are 7 kids, including three other four years old boys for my four year old boy to play with. It's paradise for him.

I wouldn't be a stay at home mother in Germany for the world. But that's my personal preference. As for city life, well Munich is a city. There are no skyscrapers but you'll find plenty of shopping, entertainment, variety of people (not to compare with NY of course) etc. On the plus side its incredibly safe and green and if you use TT to kickstart your social life, you'll not be bored.

I totally agree with Tara regarding the exciting shopping and entertainment that you would find here in Munich. I am married with a German and recently shifted my wellness business to Belgium and TRUST ME "Munich" is a place where i could live and work (as employer) even not able to pronounce A to Z in German So you could imagine how international Munich can be. Of course it is always a PLUS learning and communicating with local language.

Now that i just left for two weeks, i am already missing the nice bus and wonderful subway service in Munich. The bus driver here smokes while driving and with 36 degrees celsius with no AC. I find that much more comfortable being someone who do not love driving living in munich!

Even now that the place that i live is a english speaking upper class area with private golf club and also castle size of houses. It is just not the same

@Chino--i definitely believe that Munich will be the RIGHT place for you and your family

Om Suasti Astu (Peace in your heart & in the world)

Munich: full of nutters. Compared to NY hardly any crime. Love it here (big city boy speaking - London).

Hmmm... Don't you find that people in Belgium speak English a lot more than they do in Munich?

Just do it. There are enough girls nights out and other ways to vent and deal with the 'expat solution' than many say.

I moved here to be with my German wife 5 years ago, and dont plan on going back. Aside from finding a new apartment right now, I'd say the first year will be difficult, but afterwards, it's all cake.

I agree, not to mention the rest of Western Europe. Actually, I think even in Eastern Europe people speak more English than here.

Well when I saw the topic title I was going to simply reply 'do it'. I'm not quite so sure now though. I only have limited experience of Manhatten but it's very very different from Munich. You are right of course about having more quality time with the kids though and Munich and the surroundings really are great.

It would change the dynamics though, and you'll probably get frustrated by learning German. And I'm sure your husband wouldn't change much but of course it could be frustrating for you when he is gabbling in German to everyone and you don't know what the hell is going on. Also, do you think of how things could be 10 years down the line? I mean now it would probably be great to have lots of quality time to spend with the kids but when they are older will you be frustrated if you can't get back into the work market?


Is the shopping great in Munich by the way?

In general terms though I can't recommend Munich enough. Horses for courses though I suppose.

It would be a great experience for you and the family but it could be nice to have a get out clause probably (I guess a transfer in the opposite direction wouldn't be impossible)


surely the first two words there are superfluous?

Can your kids speak German?

@Jules Winnfield & Verbatim-Yes it is true that people here speaks more english than in Munich but bear in mind Belgium is a more complicated country as there are three official languages namely, Flemish, French and German.

The place that i am living "Overijse" which is outside of Brussel is an Expat living town so english speaking in our town is common. However just 5 mins drive and you will be in another french area that you would experience difficulty communicating with them. In Brussels, you do not have problem speaking english but once you meet a french then the problem arise

The locals here also warn me about there are lots of people in Brussel who also refuse to speak english at all!

Germany's ok, but you should watch out concerning Munichers.

The locals in Munich have a history of handling serious situations where the result is a foreignor losing their life.

For a testament to this, just consider the Israeli Olympic team or Milli Vanilli.

Anyway, maybe things will be different for you.

Good luck.

You forgot WWII.

Forget that, they'll learn - can you speak German? Dunno what the 'dynamic' is in your relationship, but your husband is gonna have to do everything (all the admin crap, and dealing with amts and shit) if you don't.
Do you value convenience? You won't get alot of that in Germany; the service industry is appaling. You will NOT enjoy the supermarkets. If you are froma big city, or even a small city, Munich will seem like a remote village in comparison. I personally do not think its an 'international' place atall, and don't get it when people say they can get by with English, because my experience says that ain't so.
Somebody posted above that the weather here is great - depends what you think of as great. Sure its sunny right now, but we had 4 months of snow on the ground not so long ago. I myself like that, because I enjoy both winter and summer, but each to his own.
Shopping in Munich is bloody awful, I have no idea how anyone could think otherwise. Maybe they've never been to London.
Seriously, I would at the very least take a holiday here first before making any decision. Moving to a completely unknown foriegn country is fraught with potential problems I reckon. Place I used to work at spent a fortune getting an American guy to come and work here, and he left after 2 months, because the place dorve his wife insane. Her expectations just did not match to reality, although in fairness, she moaned about petty stuff like "the roads are too narrow".

agree with don there on certain points, particularily about needing to speak the lingo to get a satisfactory level of enjoyment out of the place. without it, you can feel excluded, alienated and resentful. however, you can begin to enjoy it with a relatively low level of german but at least you can interact with people and then develop from there.

you need a very open-minded attitude as this is an entirely different and sometimes shocking culture. that's where Toytown comes in handy as you can come and have a good moan about ze bloody germans. however, if you choose to move here, remember, that's your choice, so choose to integrate as much as possible.

the vast majority of Toytowners love living here, for some it was instant and for others it perhaps took a bit of time (months, perhaps years) and they come from all over the globe and all sorts of backgrounds. it's essentially about how adaptable you are to seeing and getting the most out of a place and this is a place with a huge amount to offer.

I have been to London many times and i don't really enjoy shopping there as things are more expensive in London in average (Not necessarily branded costly stuffs) As for men's clothings it is great for prices in London if i am looking for paul smith or other branded english clothes. I know there are alot of second hand shops there but i just do not feel comfortable wearing strangers clothes

good advice from don_riina
have you ever been to Munich? if not, then get your husband's company to pay for a long-weekend for the two of you (plus kids if you like)

Tara is probably right that Glockenbachviertel would be best for you.
Munich is pretty international (something like 25% of the people who live here don't have a German passport), it's just different nationalities than you might be used to (Turkish, Italian, former-Yugo, Kurdish etc) and they tend to congregate in pockets.

Some people love it, some hate it.
It's a *lot* more slow-paced than New York.
And if you go out to work, then there will be a sizeable group of people who will think you're a bad mother and won't hold back on telling you so. Screw them, though. None of their sodding business.

and yes - definitely learn German
switch to speaking only German in your family right now, starting tonight
chuck yourself in the deep-end, it's the way I learned and I can only recommend it

Munich was pretty standard German boilerplate on that example.

But Munich proved you can score a hit single with only six words:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Convention
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/54vol2/flyrobinfly.htm

generally speaking, also, there are not too many drugs (or indeed crime in general) around in Munich

although clearly some users have found a rich vein of crack

I thought that was the fenooks quarter?

I don't watch the Sopranos, so had to look that up

Yeah, there are a few gay bars in the area, some mixed bars, some predominantly straight places. It's not one thing or the other, it's a mix of all kinds of people. It's the closest you'll get to a New York kind of feel in Munich, though, I reckon (although "close" is a relative term, obv )

I'm only messing abaaat innit Topsy.

GBV is certainly very lively, but I reckon with 2 kinds, I'd wanna stay outside of town a bit. That said, I think I'd go nuts in Manhatten in about 3 days, but I'm more of a country boy. Need my 500m personal space at all times.

Good call to try and get the company to pay for a visit though. With the amount of cash thats spent on employing and relocating somebody, the effort that goes into some sort of "cultural training" (for want of a better phrase) is really low. A weekend would be a bit too short I reckon, particularly with flying that far. I would not stay in a hotel either - get an apartment for a wek, so you can get a closer feel of actually living here. I'd offer to be a guide, but my version of Munich starts and ends in Schwabing, and I only even go there about twice a year.

So damned if she do and damned if she don't? German isn't the easiest language to learn, but once you have a few nouns and verbs you can get by and keep on learning.
Don't let the language keep you away, even if you only stay here for a few years the experience will be invaluable for the kids.

chino, i cannot say anything regarding how your family relationships would change given a move to munich - but that seems well covered by others. I will add, however, that Munich can be ... how to say this ... boring. Now before everyone jumps on me for that comment, bear in mind that IMHO Munich is not a "big city", the pace of life here is very relaxed (can be read as "slow" - i.e. the people walk really really slowly), language is a near constant barrier for some foreigners (like myself), the night life opportunities are quite limited (especially if you lack the language fluency), the near complete lack of crime is refreshing at first, but can become like a sedative (think "Eloy" as in Eloy and Morlocks). And I know that Chicago is no New York, so your experience will be different than mine. With this, it would be a good idea for you to spend some time here (as a non-tourist) before commiting to a move.

that said, there are some great aspects to Munich. for instance, it is a really good place to raise a family and very safe, the public transit is fantastic. so the kids can have a social life without you worrying that bad things would happen to them. there are many public swimming pools which are of very high quality. and the travel opportunities from here are really good. oh, and the multitude of bike routes is fantastic! So, there are many aspects of Munich that I wish I had had as a kid.

also, if you do come for a visit, could you bring me a pastrami on rye? PLEASE!!!

Thanks for all your responses. Fortunately I do know German -- I actually studied German in college years before I met my husband for some reason which is totally lost to me now. My German isn't that good - I can't read too well and make tons of mistakes but I can get around and join in conversations. We travel to Germany twice a year to visit my inlaws near Pforzheim (where I certainly could not live) and also to vacation in the mountains in Austria (I love skiing and hiking). We also spent 2 days in Munich last summer staying with friends in Bogenhausen (which I didn't really like-too much because you don't see anyone outside). We have lived in Tribeca NYC for the last 10 years and I like the neighborhood feel within a big city -- not just the shops and restaurants but mostly always running into friends or acqaintances and getting together spontaneously. I have never worried about safety either. Also my kids are in a great small school and are very happy here. I just don't get enough time with them.

I always enjoy coming to Germany but as someone pointed out it's very different when you are a tourist.

I appreciate the suggestions about the Glockenbachviertel - I will check it out in August.

by the way -- I never tasted pastrami!

BLASHPEMY! Get thee to Katz' Deli (Bowery, Houton at Ave. A) quickly!

Strangely enough, I'm going to pretty much agree with don_riina. I moved here from NYC and there will be a few things that hit you quickly:
1) No one is good at "hurry". What they're good at is preventing you from moving when you're in one.
2) Public transport is good but it actually closes. Every night. And on Sundays it's weak and slow.
3) It's real white here. There are a lot of minorities here but nothing like NYC or London. If you're not white, prepare for stares -- they're rarely malicious.
4) Shops close at 8pm (some earlier) and almost everything is closed -- by law -- on Sunday.
5) Restaurant selection is limited although there are better curry houses here than on 6th between 1st and 2nd. The people on Toytown know exactly which ones, too. Check the Wiki.
6) Damn, this list is getting longer than I thought.
7) Taxis are expensive.
8) There are only one or two brands of beer available in most bars and restaurants (though there are at least five types). Most bars have about 1/10 the number of bottles that any self-respecting place in the US has. You don't order gin by brand, for example, you take the house brand which may be Gordons or may be Finsbury's but may well be dime-store swill.
9) If you're uptight about nekkididity, this is the wrong place. Naked tits are on the front page of crap newspapers, on ad posters in the U-Bahn, even in daytime TV ads. Saunas are mixed and you drop the towel.

If you learned German before and you're living here full-time, you'll pick it back up pretty quickly, and there are very cheap, gov't-sponsored courses along with language schools of varying and sometimes dubious quality.

The biggest concern seems to be that you won't be able to work and that your social life will be pretty limited. You're unlikely to be hanging out with the parents of your kids' friends if you can't talk to them. Can you deal with what may well feel like isolation? Are you willing to watch crappy TV and practice your German everyday so that you can break out of that? If so, then you shouldn't worry too much. If you're the tough NY broad type, you'll get used to the quirks and the silliness of cops harrassing bicyclists and expensive taxis and enjoy your time here. You might evn want to stay longer.

You'll miss a lot of stuff but on the other hand, there's a lot here that I miss when I'm away.

woof.

From 'ayes???

I too am a native NYer...and I have to say that if you LOVE the NYC lifestyle, then Munich is probably a great place to visit, but not a great place to be long-term.

I am often frustrated by the lack of diversity and culture (arts).

I have learned after 6 years here to LOVE the outdoors and the safety and cleaness of Munich.

We are actually trying to get out of here to London.

That said, It could be a great place to slow down a bit and focus on being a mom.

When I saw the topic title I was just going to say "no"...and I read some posts and I still say "no". I have only been to NY for a visit but am from San Francisco, and even then I found Munuch just completely bland and boring - I don't care how "international" or "cosmopolitan" or "great for shopping" people think it is. It is not. I had a very vibrant life in SF - day and night...Munich did nothing for me. I moved to Berlin a month ago and I love it, as a matter of fact I hardly ever think of my 1.5 years in Bavaria, aside from pretty nature and the convenient location to other countries. (although I do check out TT every now and then, just a nice habit i guess, but I have less time to read all the posts since there is actually a life happening outside my door now).

What I mean is if you are a self-descirbed "city girl" this just may be a very huge change, particularly as you will have to quit your job - any move changes the dynamic in the couple, but there may be too much on your plate too suddenly. I spoke no german when my (German)boyfriend and I came here, which made him very stressed the first few months as he had to deal with all the beurocracies of settling, and that is withOUT children. It may sound nice to be able to spend time with kids, but accompanied with all the other details, I am not so sure. But then again you say you would like to live in the suburbs, which made me think that perhaps if you thought about it, may be you are rather prepared. And Munich together with being bland, is rather safe, seems more kid-friendly, and that may be a big factor for you. But if it was just you and your husnabd I would defintely say NO. You really should come and visit for a few days first to get an idea...

in what way is she 'damned if she don't'?

spontaneously! Mmmmmm, in my experience in germany the rules of german friends are nothing so spontaenous. Not sure what it's like in NY but in Frankfurt (smaller than Munich) most of my german friends were shocked that we (the international crowd) would knock on each other doors when passing without a prior phone call!!! Also most of my german friend were pretty slow to invite people into their houses and one when asked said why should I do that when we can meet-up in a Cafe!!! Maybe it was just my set of german friends!!!

How many TTers get regular invite round to their German Friend's houses/apartments???

Just thought I'd add that to the mix since how you relate to friends (i.e. the rules and boundaries) does change a lot in a different cultures...

It is so interesting theses debate...I didn't like NY to much but loved London - a friend of mine's NY girlfriend hated London but loves NY. I now dislike London (it's too big and fast for middle aged me) but like Munich and don't hate Manchester any more (since I'm getting older and nostalgic for chips, curry and rice!)...

Stanford - a slag when it comes to cities.

PS. Don't be fooled by Munich is international..depends what you term international. Frankfurt was more International and outward looking but even that wasn't a patch on the mix (nationalities and ethnic mix) of New York or London...

I wouldn't say regularly, but fairly often. In fact I have to get out my big book of excuses sometimes to fight them off!!

@Boomtown_Rat,

Maybe it was just me...no one wanted me in their house/apartment!!!

Fcukers...they use to use my apartment like a club/bar...

I too am a native NYer. I just moved here 2 months ago from an awesome apartment on the UWS of Manhattan. I LOVE NY! And I do agree with the other NYers about the slower pace and many differences to get used to in Munich. That said, I have no regrets about moving here, and in general I'd have to say my quality of life and overall happiness have improved dramatically. The stress and chaos and angst of my daily life have almost completely vanished, and for the first time I am experiencing the concept of relaxation and life outside of work. Okay, it's true, my heart will always belong to NY and I'm not sure I'll ever feel completely at home here. However for me it wasn't so much of a risk because I came here alone and I know I can always go back to NY at any time, whether it be for a visit or permanently.

The issue regarding the transition from full-time work to stay-at-home mom is an entirely different one. Depending on the kind of person you are, this could be the best move of your life or it could be your demise. I think this is a tough decision to make, but would be equally difficult regardless of where you were living. Also, couldn't it be an option to work over here? Or try out the stay at home thing for a while, and if you're truly unhappy you could always get a job at a later time. I think if you try to find different options and have a plan B available, you will avoid the potential of being trapped in a shitty situation, and as a result this move won't seem so risky. Good luck!

Seconded.
Pleasant, safe, relaxing - yes, but the three things listed above definitely not.

isn't comparing new york with munich similar to apple with orange? i have only lived in london (my big city experience) and i don't compare the two as i find they are two totally different places ie people, culture, language and karma...

yes, but it seems fairly relevant if you are considering moving from one to the other

I disagree with people who say that Munich is not cosmopolitan and does not have good shopping.

I'm with BR and planetmoni. Munich isn't a national capital. It's not Paris or London or NYC (which is cultural capital of the US.) But for a provincial capital, it's got a lot. Certainly more than Austin or Springfield or Madison or Denver, capitals of states where I've lived.

How can a city with 20% of its population NOT native, not be cosmopolitan?

Is there a major design house not represented on Maximilianstrasse or Theatinerstrasse? What about the Fuenf Hoefe? There are three shopping malls besides the huge pedestrian area downtown. I admit, the loss of The GAP a couple of years ago was a blow, but come on! Munich has great shopping.

So there we are, if your idea of great shopping is GAP, then Munich has great shopping, even though it does not have a GAP. If your children like toys that are all made of wood, they will also think munihc has great shopping. If they like Star Wars figures however, they are going to cry. Like I do, every day.

Just for the sake of argument if 20% of that population came from the same place would that still make it cosmospolitan!!!

For me, It's the range and mix and depths of that cosmospolitan that matters...when those cultures stamp something on the town...I see Munich as being German with a Turkish flavour maybe ...but other than that when have you last heard someone with a sounds system outside their house/apartment door or Window blasting out some Reggie or Blues as I heard the other week when hanging out in Moss Side.(Manchester)...

Here's to blasting out music into the street...

PS. Is there a Chinese New Year's festival or a Carribean street carnival...or a Brazilian one for that matter...maybe there is but I've not seen them.

Not saying this is bad or anything but Munich is Bavarian and German...init!!! Compare that to NY with the different quarters and different flavours...China Town, Little Italy, Queens, Bronx. Some of you veterans can tell me if I've missed something but where are the different ethnic and cultural flavours to Munich. They don't shout out at me at least...

I know it's that pesky Russian Disco - init... !!!

I think whether somewhere is cosmopolitan or not is based entirely on what your reference material is (ie where are you comparing it with).

this is probably the biggest issue, but she'll get this no matter if she moved from NYC to Topeka, Kansas & gave up her job. there are also lots of TT mom's here, so no worries about making friends. she will also become acquainted with the parents of her kids schoolmates too.

the children are half german and i think they would appreciate being able to live and learn about their & fathers culture. i know if i ever married a german, i would insist on living in the u.s. for a few years to expose my kids to the culture because my cultural awareness of the states ended in about 2000 -- no t.v., limited american movie releases here, u.s books i can find at the hauptbahnhof... think about how excited i was to get to watch dave shapel on mtv!

if anything, they deserve to know that and since kids get out of school at a ridiculously early hour, you'll get enough time for them. maybe more than you wanted

thanks man. correction made!

Never. Hence the reason Munich is better than Manchester.