Dual citizenship rules in Germany

New to these boards, but definitely not to Germany and the culture.

My mother was born in German ('51) to German citizens, but immigrated to Canada in 1953. Nobody applied for dual citizenship at the time and she became a Canadian citizen at age 6.

She would like to reclaim her citizenship - and I've been told that this is possible because she was not only born there, but both her parents were married citizens at the time. She did not voluntarily give up her citizenship (how could she know at age 6) - but I don't know if this changes anything.

I have then been told that I too could claim citizenship through "blood right" once my mother is a citizen. I was born in 1980, and my father is Canadian.

Is any of this possible? I've tried going to our local honorary consulate in Winnipeg, and they've said flat out that it's not possible at all - and then people in my German classes say it is.

Any advice would be helpful.

-- Kristine

Kristine, I am in almost the exact same position as yourself. I'd be interested in hearing more about your efforts as I'm about to start the same process.

My father was born in Germany to German parents. They emigrated to Australia in 1961 when my father was two years old. They were subsequently naturalized in 1967.

Unlike your mother, my father has no intention of reclaiming his former citizenship as it would mean losing Australian citizenship. I, on the other hand, would be prepared to give up my Australian passport. I'm sure you are aware by now that dual citizenship is simply out of the question.

I had actually given up hope of being eligible for German citizenship period until I stumbled upon the following little snippet...

Case 2: Repatriation as German citizen

The scenario includes cases, in which the German citizenship hat existed at one point, was however forfeited through the naturalization in Canada/USA. There are many reasons for this situation. Your parents may have immigrated to Canada/USA when you were still a child. When your parents applied for the Canadian/American citizenship, they included you in their application, and you became a Canadian/American citizen. Or perhaps you immigrated to Canada/USA as an adult for professional reasons and gave your German citizenship up in order to become a Canadian/American because you were not aware of the fact that you might keep your German citizenship. This would for instance also apply when your parents or grandparents were German citizens who lost their citizenship in the process of their naturalization in Canada/USA. You were born in Canada/USA and possess only the Canadian/American citizenship. Consequently, it is not a prerequisite for the repatriation that you personally had at some point the German citizenship. It suffices that you are a descendant, i.e. a child or grandchild) of a former German citizen.

http://www.liebrecht.com/en/services/index...ice=citizenship

I also received a letter from the German embassy confirming it was possible to aquire citizenship based on descent from a former citizen. However, you need to be able to prove your connections to Germany, have a sufficient knowledge of the German language, and be able to support yourself once in Germany.

Hope this helps.

This may sound insane at a first glance. However, being able to retain German citizenship when taking on another (non-EU) citizenship is really not that difficult, as long as you do your homework and do some research on the subject of "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung". I've been through the process myself with regards to Canadian citizenship. It essentially boils down to being able to find several job postings that match your qualifications/background that clearly indicate that Aussie citizenship is either required or preferred. If you specifically search for these types of job offers, usually they are not that difficult to find. However, once you give up Aussie citizenship to take on German one, you'd likely have to go through the whole immigration process again before you can apply for Oz citizenship and that would certainly suck for someone who used to be a citizen before. (I don't know if it's any easier for ex-citizens to gain permanent residency in Oz.)

I think in practice, there is little difference between German and British citizenships. One of the benefits of German citizenship though is that it's fairly easy to pass onto a number of subsequent generations even when you live abroad whereas the rules for inheriting British citizenship are much stricter and limited to 1 or 2 generations (from what I recall).

To those with german Mother and born before 1975 (also my case), please see the following link:

http://www.servat.unibe.ch/dfr/bv037217.html

Last April, the issue about the nationality of children of german mother and foreign father born before 1975 was discussed on “die Zeit� online and on ARD-Magazin Panorama. A couple of sad cases resulting from the application of the Nationality Law (RuStaG) valid until 1974 were presented. Please see here below the abstract and the link to the website.

Unerwünscht im Mutterland
Von Stefan Buchen | © ZEIT online 17.4.2008 - 13:42 Uhr
Wie die Behörden mit Hochmut, Ignoranz und frechen Lügen Kinder deutscher Mütter und ausländischer Väter noch immer als unliebsame Fremde abstempeln – späte Folge eines frauenfeindlichen Gesetzes aus der Kaiserzeit
Ein Fernsehbeitrag des Autors zu dem Thema läuft an diesem Donnerstagabend um 21.45 Uhr im ARD-Magazin Panorama

http://www.zeit.de/online/2008/16/unerwuenscht_im_mutterland?page=all

As I mentioned in previous post, I’m also son of german mother and foreign father. Originally, I come from Latinamerica but lived several years and went to the University in Germany. Currently, I live in USA. My mother didn’t know about the window opened between 1.1.1975 and 31.12.1977 to submit a petition for the nationality, so I couldn’t take advantage of that opportunity. Some years ago, my application for the nationality (submitted after 1977) was rejected. Although the authorities say that their decision is lawful, I still think it is unconstitutional and believe there must be a way to serve justice.

In a parallel case, in 2006, after more than 50 years and multiple legal battles, the BGH ruled in favor of descendants of german mother and foreign father who had lost the german nationality by “legitimation�. There is only a very thin line separating this case and cases like mine (also fabmuc, lupo and other forum members). The difference is that these children were born to unmarried german mother and we were born to married german women. As such they received the nationality by birth and lost it when the mother married; while we didn’t get it because the mother was already married. The common factor is the foreign father.
Based on the aforementioned BGH precedent, I’m hopeful that something can still be done to amend the law if enough persons get their message across to politicians and/or a strong, well-supported case can be submitted to the court.

I would be interested to hear comments/ideas/infos/opinions on the subject.

Thanks in advance!

Lenkahn, in the article you attached it mentions that approx. 200.000 people were in a similar situation. You and I are two of them...
If someone had the know-how and stamina to locate a couple of thousands of those affected and launch a major law-suit against the German government?? (or ??) and/ or to bring it up again in the press...? Maybe we'd have a chance?

I would look at the possibility of achieving your goal via the legislative process unless an attorney specialized in the area can identify a constitutional issue in your situation. Just a layman's thought.

That's a very interesting article. If you read a story like that, it becomes fairly clear that you'll run into a brick wall. Apparently it has already been challenged before the BVerfG, and the position was upheld. But I am similarly astounded that it is not considered unconstitutional to deny a group of persons a right that is otherwise guaranteed to everyone under the constitution!

The official view is that this rule serves "Rechtssicherheit" in that they put it in place so they could know excactly how many Germans there are, i.e. you wouldn't have children of those naughty German mothers turning up decades later to claim citizenship. Of course, this is utter bullshit, because random children of German fathers can still turn up whenever they want, so the Rechtssicherheit they claim to be protecting doesn't exist anyway. The whole thing is farcical.

I can tell you I did write to these people: http://www.einbuergerung.de/index2.htm because I found the slogan "Fair, gerecht, tolerant" somewhat mocking givn the circumstances. I received quite a friendly reply actually, the key passage of which reads as follows:

"Bei der 1974 getroffenen Übergangsregelung für eheliche Kinder
deutscher Mütter und ausländischer Väter ging der Gesetzgeber seinerzeit
davon aus, dass ein erhebliches Interesse daran bestand, einen
möglichen staatsangehörigkeitsrechtlichen Schwebezustand innerhalb eines
überschaubaren Zeitraumes zu beenden. Deshalb wurde das Erklärungsrecht
grundsätzlich auf drei Jahre befristet. Diese Regelung wurde auch vom
Bundesverfassungsgericht in seiner Entscheidung am 22.1.1999 (2 BvR
729/96) bestätigt. Im Rahmen einer Ermessenseinbürgerung kann jedoch die
Abstammung von einer deutschen Mutter, wenn auch nicht im Sinne eines
generellen Wohlwollensgebotes, positiv berücksichtigt werden. Hierzu
müssten Sie sich ggf. an die für Sie örtlich zuständige
Einbürgerungsbehörde wenden."

In other words, the Germans - and I now regard them very much as "the Germans", and not my own people or the country in which my family has lived for over 400 years - will not be swayed on this point.

In real terms, the best chance would probably lie in the topic being further picked up in the media until it is something that attracts attention at the highest level. I don't know whether token efforts like letters to the Bundespresident achieve anything whatsoever. All I know is that if I were an excellent footballer, I would get (dual) citizenship tomorrow, as that is a more bona fide contribution to society than the one I am making now.

If anyone has any good ideas let me know, as this still burns with me.

Hi Germanybound,

I like to think that there is still a chance. Here below is the link to the video from PANORAMA. In the video you will hear the opinion of a Lawyer from Lüneburg and a former CDU Representative that back in 1974 opposed the bill. Also there is the link to the Forum about the TV program; there you will see how many people react outraged to the issue and express support for the affected persons. There is even a Lawyer from Freiburg i. Breisgau that offered free legal services to the persons affected by this unfair law. There is a couple of neutral/negative comments but that is to expect.



http://daserste.ndr.de/panorama/archiv/2008/panoramastaatsangehoerigkeit2.html



If we were able to locate more cases like ours we could coordinate efforts to raise awareness in the population (media, website, etc) and get government’s interest. Frau Merkel is a woman and may listen to our voices. Also, our mothers still have the right to vote and 100,000 votes (say half of the 200,000 in the article) would always draw politician’s attention.



I think we should be able to find the stamina to drive the issue; however, the know-how and legal expertise may be a problem. I’ve been looking in the internet for a Lawyer expert in constitutional issues, but no luck so far. From abroad it is always more difficult, perhaps somebody living in Germany volunteers for the search. Maybe one starting point is the Lawyer speaking in Panorama’s video.



After all, they have already denied our mother’s right to transmit their german citizenship and our right to get it; therefore, the situation cannot get worse. Any change will be a win and I believe it’s worth to fight for it.

Hi fabmuc,

I think that in 1974, the Court declared unconstitutional Art 4 of the Nationality Law/Ru.StaG (the article that gives the nationality to children of german father only), which was the basis for the 3-year window to obtain the nationality by “declaration� (Please see my Post #55 in this forum). However, in my opinion (and in agreement with you) the solution was (is) equally unconstitutional. Here is the way I see the issue:

Article 3 of the Constitution from 1949 (Grundgesetz or GG) establishes that men and women have equal rights (see excerpt below). At the same time, Article 117(1) specifies that any law conflicting with article 3 remains in place until modified in agreement with the constitution but not beyond march 31, 1953 (see excerpt below). However, the government did not modify the Nationality Act until 1974, about 21 years after the date indicated by the constitution! On that basis, for the 1975 Nationality Act to be consistent with the Constitution, it had to be in place since April 1, 1953. Knowingly, the government applied for more that two decades a clearly invalid law. Also, for the 1974 amendment to be consistent with the constitution, the right to the nationality for the affected children of german women had to be without restrictions or limitations, just as it is (or was) for the children of german men, because men and women are equal. That’s why I think this is unconstitutional.



Article 3 (Equality before the law). (1) All persons are equal before the law. (2) Men and women have equal rights. (3) No one may be prejudiced or favored because of his sex, his parentage, his race, his language, his homeland and origin, his faith or his religious or political opinions.



[font="Times New Roman"]Article 117 (1) Law which conflicts with Article 3, paragraph 2, remains in force until adapted to this provision of the Basic Law, but not beyond March 31, 1953. (2) Laws which restrict the right of freedom of movement in view of the present housing shortage remain in force until repealed by Federal legislation.

The official view is that this rule serves "Rechtssicherheit" in that they put it in place so they could know excactly how many Germans there are, i.e. you wouldn't have children of those naughty German mothers turning up decades later to claim citizenship. Of course, this is utter bullshit, because random children of German fathers can still turn up whenever they want, so the Rechtssicherheit they claim to be protecting doesn't exist anyway. The whole thing is farcical.

Good Point!


"...Im Rahmen einer Ermessenseinbürgerung kann jedoch die
Abstammung von einer deutschen Mutter, wenn auch nicht im Sinne eines
generellen Wohlwollensgebotes, positiv berücksichtigt werden. Hierzu
müssten Sie sich ggf. an die für Sie örtlich zuständige
wenden."

In my experience, the Einbürgerungsbehörde reviewing application for naturalization (at least nowadays) don't care if you are german descendant or not. As you very well said, an excellent sport player is a much heavier factor and makes up for "public interest" in your naturalization.

In real terms, the best chance would probably lie in the topic being further picked up in the media until it is something that attracts attention at the highest level. I don't know whether token efforts like letters to the Bundespresident achieve anything whatsoever. All I know is that if I were an excellent footballer, I would get (dual) citizenship tomorrow, as that is a more bona fide contribution to society than the one I am making now.

I think it would be tough to make them move, but I like to think it's not impossible. I agree on that the best and fastest chance may be raising public awareness of the issue in the media. Perhaps, talking to the reporters that worked on the Panorama program may open new avenues.

If anyone has any good ideas let me know,

Perhaps other options to bring the issue up are the European Court or even the UN High Commisioner for Human Rights. I believe that in one occasion the European Court ruled over the german goverment (or court?) on the right of women in the Bundeswehr to take part in combat. Also, I know that the UN puts pressure on some middle east and african countries that even today don't allow women to keep their nationality and pass it to their children. That case is not very different that our case. I believe it would be good to have an expert opinion on the issue from a specialist in constitutional and/or international law.

...as this still burns with me.

same here.

Fabmuc, lenkahn and others affected by this situation,

Here might be our chance: The attorney Werner Krempels (see below) wrote "gegen dieses Relikt fuehren wir eine Verfassungsbeschwerde".

He wrote the following in the Panorama discussion:

============
ES IST ZU BEGRÜSSEN;DASS SICH DIE PRESSE DES SEIT LANGEM SCHWELENDEN PROBLEM ANNIMMT.IBIS DATO HABEN DEUTSCHE BEHÖRDEN VIELEN DEN SCHUTZ VERWEIGERT.ES IST SOGAR ZU AUSWEISUNGEN GEKOMMEN.WEIL ES SICH ABER BISLOANG UM AUSSIEDLER ODER DEUTSCHE AUS DEN NEUEN BUNDESLÄNDERN GEHANDELT HAT ;IST ES NIEMANDEM AUFGEFALLEN.GEGEN DIESES RELIKT FÜHREN WIER EINE VERVASSUNGSBESCHWERDW.AUCH INDIESEM FALL KÖNNTE GEHOLFEN WEWRDEN.AUS HUMANITÄREN GRÜNDEN BIETE ICH DIE HILFE KOSTENLOS AN.

MIT FREUNDLICHEN GRÃœSSEN;
RA WERNER KREMPELS;FREIBURG I.BR
==========

Contact info:
Werner Krempels
Friedrichstr. 15
79098 Freiburg im Breisgau
Deutschland

Kontaktdaten
Telefon: (0761) 34521, (0761)
Telefax: (0761) 39604
--
-------------------
would you be interested in discussing this topic further somewhere else, perhaps in a Yahoogroup?

germanybound,

I would be interested to discuss the issue further. I would appreciate directions.

Thanks!

Yes I would be interested, although I'm a bit concerned about the number of spelling mistakes in the RA's text

I'm on vacation for the next two weeks, but would certainly be interested in further updates...

Germanybound, Fabmuc and other interested on this issue,

Here is another case related to the unconstitutional Nationality Law that (before 1975) deprived German women to pass their german nationality to their children:

http://www.zeit.de/2007/40/Deutsch-Irakerin?page=1

If you already have dual citizenship and were to attempt to gain German citizenship through naturalization, could you not just relinquish the citizenship you used to enter Germany and just keep hush about your other one? Or is there some wording in the naturalization papers saying you must relinquish any and all prior citizenships and failure to do so will cause your German passport to be revoked? But really, how would they ever find out you already have another passport? Perhaps highly unethical (maybe illegal), but just a scenario I wondered about.