England fans held by riot police

Well, you are halfway there on your prediction.

200 England fans detained in Stuttgart

Why?


Have to agree with that. What the hell are they meant to say, that they are not going there to win, just to have a kick about for fun. Why is it English fans are seen as arrogant etc for supporting their own Country. Of course there are always trouble makers but they are not real football fans and every Country has them, it is just that the newspaper highlight it more when English "fans" make trouble, helps them sell I suppose.

As I remember over 200 German fans and 200 Polish fans were arrested after the Poland Germany game. Although that was only a 2 second announcement on the radio, and was then very quickly forgotten about.

This is the kind of reporting that makes me laugh -


Same article but first paragraph says the English fans started it, last paragraph practically says the German fans did. But then maybe I am reading it wrong because of cause taunting is a lot worse that chanting!!!

BBC is saying it started with a chair being thrown by an England supporter.

According to an article in the BBC up to 250 English fans have been detained after trouble started in Stuttgart (Article here)

Accroding to Stuttgart Police "It all changed when the English fans arrived. The atmosphere changed"

Why is there always a portion of English fans who have to get invovled with fighting around major football events? I know they are perhaps not the only nation but they seem to be the most reliable when it comes to this.

Also I have not read many reports on this so either its being kept low key or 250 are an insignificant number or the injuries were not that news worthy...

Anyway this behaviour continues to baffle me. I bet you some of these guys had tickets and now they will miss the game...and for what!

this is so depressing. Have any other national fans been arrested this year or is it just English fans who have been causing trouble?

According to the figures 4,000 fans all together have been arrested, but of course it does not seem to mention from which Countries, seems to me that you only get an acutal number when it is English fans getting arrested.

For example -


but it does not actually say which fans were arrested does it. But I bet if it was mostly English fans it would say!!

exactly! Depressing is the word for it. A load of Germans were also arrested before the Polish game as far as I know. According to the BBC up to 4000 have been arrested so far.

Seems like a lot to me but I guess its not commercially good to have this highlighted a lot (god I am being very cynical today)

OH MY GOD!!! Do you mean that the press is reporting every single arrest regarding english fans but "forgetting" to report about the other nationalities? OH MY GOD!!!

Now. I find it a real shame that, despite all of the good work by the police and other authorities, there are stll some brainless idiots out there who feel the need to start trouble...

However, 4000 arrests and AT LEAST 350 of those have been Germans with a futher few hundred Polish. YOu have to look long and hard for those though.

Well, this very tight scrutiny is to be expected I suppose.

well it *is* the BBC so I guess it is more likely to highlight the English

what are the German papers saying?

well the article I refer to was in the BBC and I do think that you can say that English fans are being victimised! I mean there is a certain tradition here...

On top of that any German violence or trouble has also been as well (or poorly) highlighted.

The question is not about the English but why would a person in general get involved in this. Especially if you have spent the money to travel...I just dont get it

Der Spiegel has reported most of the incidents. Not just the English ones but also German and apparently a few Swedes gots arrested also...there are a few articles on it.

A percentage of the people being arrested have not actually done anything. However, if there is a crowd of 200 English and a handful are scrapping then they are just rounding them up and arresting the lot of them. I have just read an article that says 2 reporters were arrested with the 122 English fans the other night, however they were released eventually when they stated who they were.

Crawlie -

Not true at all. Do you read German media? If so the troubles involving Germans BEFORE and DURING the world cup are well documented.

What is not true?

Sorry, but the English arrests and violence get reported much more widely than anything else. As andrea said, most of those fans will be released without charge as the police just round up a load of people that were near the violence just in case

Crawlie post saying that you have to look long and hard for reports of trouble by other nations i.e. the Germans and the Poles. This was well highlighted.

Sorry I thought I had quoted

Thanks Neil...was up to early this morning, concentration levels are not as they should be!

Just found this article -


Obviously these figure were before the last 200 were arrested apparently, but it still is not as bad as the press seems to make out.

IMO the press just seems to make matters worse, I tend to think that other fans are more likely to start trouble with the English fans as they are aware now that it is more than likely that it will be the English ones that will get arrested.

I think you could be right here. However I want to point out that I didnt start the thread to bash the English (ok I should have given the thread another title then) but more to see if anybody has an idea what motivates people to travel all the way here (from any nation), spend loads of money getting here and on tickets and then start kicking the crap out of each other when the MUST KNOW that they are going to end up in a cell!?!
EDIT by mod: Earlier posts were merged with this thread, MN did start the original one.

Most have been banned from the public viewing area but will be allowed to watch the game. Some 80-odd are being held until Monday.


Violent fans were pinpointed by plain-clothes policemen and arrested.
(source: Sky News)
German coverage is extensive. Yes, they are saying that most of the arrested fans were English, and that most of them were drunk.

I am used to a bit of English bashing. I lived in Scotland for 7 years, Germany for 6 and am now in Wales...one of these days I will get back home to watch a World Cup on home ground

I would presume a small percentage of fans have gone out to specifically cause trouble. And IMO I can see how the real fans sometimes end up in trouble, emotions are how, adrenalin is pumping, got a few crates of beer under your belt and it just takes one taunt I suppose to start a fight. Of couse I do not agree with it but can see why it happens.


Yes that is correct, but there are also people being arrested that have not done anything. I suppose it makes it easier to arrest all rather than try and get a handful out of a crowd.

my mom wrote me an sms asking if i was okay. she said she saw the fight on t.v. and i thought what fight?
EDIT: mom is in the u.s.

It's not true that the German media barely mentioned the violence between German and Polish scumbags. The fecking commentator was on about it while the GER-POL game was in progress, and at half time it was first on the news. When the game resumed the commentator talked about a policeman who was paralysed by German scumbags a few years ago, as the camera showed the man watching the match in the stadium. Coverage in all the main papers over the next day or two.

The English scumbags deserve the treatment they get! Along with their playmates of what-fucking-ever nationality! A scumbag is a scumbag is a scumbag.

I have met(and gotten drunk) with some of the best people in the world in the last few weeks, alot of them English. But not one of them was wearing a fucking Crusader outfit, I just saw that on T.V., not one of them was violent, I just saw that on T.V.
I was hoping England would play Germany here in Munich to see what would happen. Then I wouldn't need a T.V. to see for myself what it's all about.

how can one say that the media is NOT mentioninig the trouble with english fans...the fighting between german and polish fans was reported in lenghth...at least in the german and internation media which i read and watch...though, i can understand why most english fans are pissed off with being in the spotlight so often...the majority of them is peaceful and all nations have their fair share of idiots...BUT: there is a significant difference, based on my experience. the group of english fans causing trouble is often more aggressive than their counterparts...most football fans worldwide would probably agree that the english have some of the best fans in the world, but that their image suffers from a extremely aggressive small group...in lived in madrid for a couple of years, so due to the champions league competiton we had many foreign fans comining into town...and the english fans were by the far the most feared...and the same seems to be true now in germany...but then, what can you do? the english authorities are really trying to tackle the problem and the huge majority of english fans is not a problem at all...you probably can't solve every problem...there will be always some idiots and so far it has been a very relaxed world cup.

I guess the main problem is that as soon as trouble is caused by English fans then we get a sense of "oh no, not again" and that does come across in the press to a certain extent. THere was widespread reports about German and Polish hooligans prior to the World Cup and the match probably passed off quieter than was feared. Nevertheless, an awful lot less was made of that incident abroad than incidents involving english fans. Indeed, the German authorities have gone to great lengths to inform us that the age of the english hooligan is over and the fans have been among the best they have witnessed so far...

I suppose it is obvious that such an incident will be reported on this website and at least if gives one certain person in particular cause to have his little rant, but we should not forget that the problem is now very very isolated, thanks to some very very hard work over the past years.

That makes 400. Schotte's prediction has now been fulfilled.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_obje...-name_page.html


I guess that that is the beautiful game of life. I think that they all deserve the yellow and red cards they get. We also shouldn't interrupt the game of life with stupid things like video evidence or questioning the police or the judges. If they get something wrong then hey that is just the way it goes. The English fans should know that the police are going to penalize such behavior. There are rules.

My mind drifts back to September 1st 2001, Munich.

I was actually in the Olympiastadium, so I didn't see any trouble at all. However, my brother-in-law (a German) was arriving at München Hbf. on the train from Landshut (this comes in on one of the platforms over by the Arnulfstr. side of the station). He was at the back of the train and had to walk the length of the platform. He told me that over to his left was a strangely cordoned-off area, where men clad in Germany and England shirts were fighting. Behind the battlelines were a row of photographers (presumably from the British and German tabloid press). He thought it both strange and amusing that the tabloids would go to such lengths to stage a mock hooligan encounter.

Things are often not what they seem.

I am afraid to say it a case of ' Give a dog a bad name' it's hard work trying to rebuild an image from what has happened over the years. The Scots have done after the England game at Wembley in the 70's and now seen as a party crowd just like everybody else. England fans have tried (Portugal 2004) and all the games up to now in Germany. But Stuttgart has sent us back (the English) to square one again and where ever you go in the world and not just Germany, people will just take the piss by calling you a hooligan and many more might want to start a fight with you. Trouble is we keep blaiming the people at the bottom of society like everything else but when the late Tory MP Alan Clark says 'It's England' Martial Spirit' when talking about England fans causing trouble at France 98 and with the Media Barons spreading more diversionary garbage you know where the real problem lies!

With the Tory Party?

New headline:
500 England fans detained in Stuttgart
Reuters

Do you also know that the majority of these fans are being held on drunk and disorderly charges and will be released after the game. Others have been released and told they are banned from Stuttgart city centre. As has already been mentioned, a lot of these arrests were on people who were nearby and had nothing to do with the "trouble"... I am not condoning the idiots that are there to fight but more is being made of it than it actually is...

I'm reading Reuters latest update and it doesn't say 500 England fans detained. It says:So that's approximately 200 fans from 'tens of thousands'. If we say ONLY 20,000, then that is a mere 0.01% and then:
...suggesting that arrests were made for prevention, and not necessarily for any crimes committed. Furthermore:
The article does not say that all, or even any of those 122 arrested on Friday were English (although one should expect some to be), and quite clearly states that "Under German law police can detain individuals for threatening behaviour or if they suspect they are likely to commit a crime and it does not constitute a full arrest.".

The whole report has been attributed (which gives gravity to any reporting), by Stuttgart police spokesman Stefan Kielbach (beware of phrases like "An official spokesman said" - no name = patchy truth with lashings of conjecture, and goes for any reporting on any subject).

in the weekend's incidents i think 12 germans were arrested, almost 400 english.


and told not to go into the town centre during the match. like the smoking ban, fuck knows how they police this

I was at the England game and must say I came away from the game not being very impressed with the England fans. I've been at many games so far, and the atmosphere has been great at every game except this one. The English fans just seemed to be angry the entire time and ready to stir things up.

I can't believe they're still singing cheers like "10 German Bombers". Get over it guys ... the war is over!
That one I found the most offensive, but other cheers like "We'll fuck you in Berlin" and "You're shit and you know you are" also just instill the image of an angry mob.

From the German fans, the most aggressive cheers I've heard are "Ihr könnt nach Hause fahren" and "Ihr seid nur ein Möbel lieferant" ... hardly as nasty and much more clever.

you seem surprised! To be honest I was (pleasantly) surprised there hadn't been mouch trouble at earlier games


pretty nasty not to use Sie

Funny you mention this. I was on the S-Bahn the other day and a group of Germans behind me were singing "There were 10 Swedish Bombers in the air!"

Ah.. Good change of post there B_R. Very clever.. However, please explain why you expected trouble? Still living in the past are we?

Er no Sin, that is 1%

Anyway, the worry I would have is that this trouble has occurred before England have even lost a game!

Bugger

that was the attitude of the locals in Stuttgart too. the hope that England would win just so the rioting happens in a different city.
apart of course from those who spent all day singing "god shave the queen" and were just hoping to be nicely provoking.

I think people should define what the trouble actually was. It certainly wasnt another Charleroi with running battles and water cannons! Credit to the Police in how they handled it, they contained the people they wanted to arrest in to one area and kept them there.

The real worry would be if we go out on Saturday, drunk English fans leaving after a defeat is not a good recipe.

change??


I didn't expect major trouble a la 80's but I would have thought hot weather, lots of beer, world cup near home and a possibly over enthusiastic polizei could have at least led to a few scuffles - but the apparent absolute lack of anything at all was really nice I thought. I like the way the polizei have brought over police from other countries.

Probably daft putting this here to fuel the debate but i would imagine that the German Police and the good people of Gelsenkirchen are delighted that Holland were eliminated and England are playing Portugal instead.

With an estimated 80,000 - 100,000 England supporters following their team and 50,000+ Dutch fans all in the same city it had a potential for huge problems.

I've heard of British coppers being on the beat here in Germany. Must be a bit weird to be confronted by a dodgy geezer with a tit on his head in a foreign land.

just talked to a colleague who was there. he obviously wasnt impressed by any of the actions. but just so tthat the usual baiting can be put in perspective i'd like to add the police we're picking up everybody, including nearly two people stood next to him who we're doing nothing. only there protestations (naturaly in german) could stop them being taken away. i personaly am not worried about this little incident. the numbers mean nothing. the police are wipping everybody out of an area pdq, and i dont see any media bias. obviously there are stirring shits and neo-liberals who will nteprt this in another fashion, but they know little about german law and police tactics. pictures i've seen show both side being prats, as realy anybody who does this sort of shit is.

please do read the link btw. important quote

"He said both sets of fans had been to blame for the violence." maybe they should just ban anybody who is not in a family group from the wm ;-)

yep sin, colleague said he had to look twice when he saw all the bobbies...

Not that your comment was serious Sin, but the ones I saw were of the flat-cap variety (by which I don't mean ee-oop-lad)

And here is what Die Welt Kompakt had to say on the matter:

"300 German and 300 English fans were involved in fighting at Schlossplatz. However, it was mostly english fans that were arrested..."

So, if you speak German then you are fine then

If we win on sat that means semi final here in Munich...

Why do I get a mental picture of Police dog handlers with whippets?