England fans held by riot police

It certainly seemed to make the process of getting through security into the Fan Fest enclosure a bit easier.

You added bits to your original post

it isnt fair i agree, but the police must be applauded for first having given warnings and then doing their job.


relax, this is exactly the sort of irrational bullchit which the media USED to pump like crazy. believe me, i'm not wearing my england shirt when germany are playing because i'm worried about the german fans! especialy after the polish flag incident. there are idiots everywhere. the police have now taken a few more of em out of circulation. ;-)

Ya big Jessy

totaly big time. but alchohol-youth-patriotism are a bad mix for any country.

Guys,

Are they any people in the forum who grew-up in the 70s and 80s? I was a kid but remember the football hooligan culture quite strong in north Manchester. The coolest kids on the block were those that belong to the Red Army or the Manchester City hooligan group (forgot their name). Even as a 9 to 13 year old kids I knew that the Manchester City Group use to steam the other fans and beat them up and leave a calling card!!!

Anyhow, I wanted to ask some of those more experience than me (I go to footie matchs once every few years), if the culture has changed. Since in my humble experience the football hooligan culture of the 70s and 80s is gone. The media and foreigners don’t realise or play-up to the idea but largely this culture ended.

I have heard that there are still pockets of problems in the lower divisions and will 100% admit that English fans can be very boorish in their behaviour (the way they drink) and the songs they sing. And this boorish behaviour can, especially in Southern Europe, come across as aggressive. (I.e. when I lived in Barcelona I was ashamed to say I was English after Champion Leagues matches). But in comparison to the 70s and 80s were really are talking about a small % of knobs who like to fight on a Saturday anyway!!!

Anyhow, I wanted to solicit the opinion of some of the more experienced TTers….

I totally agree with you here. The only signs of trouble I have seen are from the little kiddies who have had one cola-weizen too many, going around antagonising anyone not wearing the German colours as well as U-Bahn drivers... Apparently German kids find it very amusing to block the doorson the U-Bahn for as long as possible before diving off, whacking the window of the driver cabin and giving him the bird whilst telling him to fuck off...

Let me just get this straight- do the English not like to fight when they are drunk? I always thought it was common knowledge- oh and Australians too.

That would be The Man City Guvnors, so i'm led to believe . .

I thought I was being a big girls blouse for not wanting to trek through town in an England shirt through hordes of pished up agressive Germans but if macho daddy Gideon is thinking the same...

Being white / speaking good German / being German is always going to be an advantage if you have the bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

@ stanford I agree 100% with you that the hooligan problem in English football is now a shadow of what it was in the 70's and 80's thank god.

Unfortunately the rest of the world and the media in particular remember all too well how bad we were and it will probably take decades more for those memories and pre suppositions of English fan behaviour to decrease.

At the end of the day we earned the reputation and it is up to all of us to try and earn a better reputation for being fanatical supporters whilst not operating a scorched earth policy wherever we go.

agree pretty much with stanford and bd.

I think the English do have a bit of a tendency to get beered up and a bit aggressive though sometimes (as can be seen on your average English high street on Friday night) and this can sometimes get out of hand a bit even if it starts of as 'a bit of a laugh'. Not comparable with previous 'scorched earth' but still quite intimidating/unpleasant if, for example, you take a young family to watch the football.

Yes, I went to school with quite a few apparent members of the Inter City Firm (ICF).
I don't go to as many matches these days (I'll try to get to a Boro game in the UK when I can, but never go to see the Hammers these days). It's calmed down a lot since then but you're still going to get some glory boys from anywhere (there were also many many firms outside of England - they English ones just had the publicity) but still it isn't anywhere near 5% of previously.
So far I've seen no real trouble from England supporters - just some being a bit loud and lairy chucking a stuffed monkey toy around at people sitting in the Englischer Garten biergarten. More embarassing than trouble (it was making me cringe, sorry, someone acting like a knob is still a knob no matter what shirt they are wearing).
I hope the lack of real trouble from all (so-called) fans continues.
Seems that the Police is doing really well on intel and co-operation with other forces.


Ach, you're making me feel ancient!

That the one!! It's funny how as soon as I heard the name - I remembered it...

There was one local (Moston/Blackley etc) lad (who was) allegedly quite big in the firm and was idolised/feared by the local kids... It was a weird time then!!! The mindless violence and glorification of it.

Sorry I meant more experienced in going to footie matches at home...since I'm more of an Armchair supporter!!!

The violence in the english domestic game is not really a major problem any more. But correct me if I am wrong in saying that the first finals in a long time that england have been involved in and their fans not caused trouble was Japan 2002 and Portugal 2004.

The figures initially looked worse over here, as the cops are just cordoning off the entire area and arresting en masse.

I really hope they do behave themselves if they get knocked out, but throwing tables and chairs and chanting songs about nazis when they are pissed up does not exactly give one all that much hope that they will.

Boomtown,

That was one of the first things I noticed going to a match in Barcelona the atmosphere was less charged...there was more kids and women than the average match I'd seen in the UK. But having said that Man U is now very mixed...there are so many tourists (Japs, Chinese, Irish etc), kids and women that the aggressive atmosphere has largely gone... (i.e. days of standing in the Terraces - we scallies from Moston use to gib in behind the turnstiles!!).

I did (1999/2000) live near West Hams ground and was surprised about how boorish those lot can be...it was the last tme I saw police on horse back charging the fans, helicopters flying above. Funnily enuff they were playing Man U that day - I was so scared that they'd work out I was Manc (even though I was just walking home).

WeeMun,

You may be right but the 90s violence was a over hang from the 80s - there was still many experienced holigans from the old style firms - going on holiday to see England abroad and living off past fighting glories. And then they would return to their day jobs - postmen, bankers and their wives and kids.

Someone can correct me - but I do believe that you willn't have found too many young thugs come thru then...as in the 80s kids would be skooled by the older more experienced holigans...

No mate the ICF are the West Ham firm.

As i said earlier the Man City firm are called the City Guvnors.

You lived near Upton Park back then, stanford? You poor man.

Stand corrected...as I said I was only 10!!! I hated city anyhow - and wanted to be in the Red Army!!!

Blimey! Everybody's shoutin' about a few drunk fans chantin'.

I can remember goin' on the train to Old Trafford to watch my schoolboy heroes Stevie Coppell, Sammy McIlroy, Joe Jordan and Lou Macari and there'd be a war zone. Cars upside down on fire. Bottles, bricks, stones and lumps of wood in the air. Blood on the streets. Baghdad would seem tranquil by comparison. As a young teenager it was best to hide the red, white and black scarf away and slink off towards The Stretford End down the back streets. I can remember being confronted once in a street near Highbury by a big gang of Gooners in bloodstained butcher's coats and leggin' it for my life.

They dun'alf make a load of fuss about relatively little nowadays. Why didn't they just water down the beer in Stuttgart like they do in England?

Thinkin' about it, why don't they arrest the editorial staff of The Sun, The Star, The Mirror and The News of The World for incitement? It would probably have a much quicker effect.

Must have been a bloody hard childhood for you living in Moston then, that's an almost solid blue area.

The amount of money that there is in the game today, as well as sanctions for misbehavior which can be extremely harsh, have made things much different to the way they were twenty years ago. There's much more at stake for anyone involved from your run of the mill fan to the people actually running things.

Getting into trouble abroad was possibly the last avenue left for real hooligans to get involved and even that is slowly but surely becoming impossible.

"Thinkin' about it, why don't they arrest the editorial staff of The Sun, The Star, The Mirror and The News of The World for incitement? It would probably have a much quicker effect."

Bloody good idea that is mate

The Rangers crew in glasgow were also the ICF.

There were quite a few which had similar names

csc
ccf
cff

(One lot even causing global warming I have heard )

Hibs had about the worst lot in Scotland. Real scumbags I think they were the ccf (capital city firm) You can read about this lot in a few of Irvine Welsh's novels.

Used to go to school with some of the Dunfermline lads. I think by that time it was turning into who could wear the most Stone Island or CP company labels at one time rather than looking for a good old dust up. Most of them were chicken shit and would only go looking for a fight if they heavily outnumbered whoever they were picking on.

Wee Mun is correct, but the Hammers one might have been first? I'm not sure though.
Did rave culture kill casuals?

Rangers and West ham had a link in some way. Loads used to go to each others games for some reason. Maybe that is why their hooligans had the same names??

I guy I know from Glasgow said he would let his kids go to any away match apart from Hibs as they had the most violent fans in Scotland.

Rave culture definitely killed casuals in Scotland. They were mostly school kids organised to some degree by the older school hooligan. They found it was much more fun to pop a pill or a tab and go dancing.

The police have done well up to now and are the single biggest factor in whether a minor scuffle erupts into mass violence or not. Previous tournaments have shown this to be the case. Hooligan Link.

About 1985 or so, for the Hibs lot just think about Begbie in Trainspotting and multiply by 500!!!

They used to go through to Glasgow and fight Celtic and Rangers casuals on their own patch!!

Fankyoo Treacle

apologies that I haven't had time to read all the posts on this thread. but just to say I was there. I don't know how someone got a bloody face, maybe they got hit by something. But I don't think there was any actual fighting. I went and stood with the English fans just before the start of the game and they were basically just a bunch of pr***s. Some old men, some scrawny teenagers and even some kids as young as 11, 12 probably with their dads. Just thick people getting drunk in the sun who've got a mental age of 10 and thought it was funny to chant at the locals and try and intimidate them. The police were there stood in the middle of these people then, hours before they trouble happened and the big riot police in body armour were also waiting around the corner. Mainly I think it was just chairs been thrown back and to, not real fighting and sounds like the police handled it well by being patient before they arrested them. I hope they enjoyed there time in hotel Stuttgart! Yes the media went big on it, was lead story on CNN but is just so happened that all the TV cameras were conveniently located directly above where it happened. But doesn't sounds like anyone was seriously injured or killed, so really a non-story! Only downside was that it kept a lot of the locals out of town on Sunday

I didn't wanted come come across as pill poppin - generation of luv but in my experience it did change it. I went from dancing in Rotters drinking beer with my older brother who would tell me to go home afterwards ( I was 13) as they would have a rumble with Salford, to dancing to house musik in the hacienda. Over the years I saw the beer heads moving from drinking to dancing...

I don't want to come over all simplistic but MadChester did play a part...

It may also have had something to do with the loss of traditional working class industries - I remember the depression in Manchester in the earlier eighties - even as kids we were depressed thinking there was no job or career for us!!!

I hear that a lot but when we played ManC vs ManU at school were always outnumbered them by 1 to 2 - so had to give them a few of our shit players (since no good Red would play for ManC).

Is Salford more Red?

Yup Salford almost 100% red.

thought so.

I once had to walk thru salford when we missed the last bus (we were out clubbing or something) and had to walk back to Old Trafford (lived there then). And, I must say it was one of the most scariest times of my life...since in those days there were no blacks in Salford and the place had a very bad rep in Moss Side and Old Trafford.

I know my way round North Manchester and can handle myself but Salford - that's another world.

I think the worst of the firms from then has to be the RJF.

did they fuck.

we met them regularly but usually in neutral locations. they were hopelessly outnumbered and moved on to concentrate on fights they could win against the sheep and some english crews. they never seriously tried anything in or around ibrox.

and i went to easter road every season for 15 years and never saw any more trouble than anywhere else.

icf

if you want to see some of what this is all about - http://www.hooligans-ww.com/video/indexEnglishHooligans.php

This would be typical of the time as well. "We ran them" and "Did they fuck" arguments...

http://www.polizei.bayern.de/muenchen/news...ndex.html/16800

latest pressmeldung of the bayern police
is in German but says along the lines of that the Stuttgart and Munich police are in contact about the English fans arrested in Stuttgart in preperation for a possible Semi final game in Munich and that 137 english fans who were "rounded up" in Stuttgart have been banned from the city of Munich.

You forgot to add, "Because of Derby Day".

A link for TBFB: Burslem Lads

A friend of mine was a Crystal Palace hooligan, he says once the worst of it was over, it was still hilarious when they played brighton as the old guys would comeout of retirement and go for a scrap, so you would have 40 and 50 year old men fighting with each other

And that will make a difference how?

2nd up on that - Holigan Bravado!

General point:

I was kid but always had imagines of 150 people in a mass brawl but as an adult it seemed to me there was a lot of running and chasing. Of course, if you were seperated from your firm/crew and caught you were really and truly fcuked but my question is did people really stand and fight like one sees in the Cowboy films i.e. everyone fighting in a bar. Or was a lot of shouting and beating of chests...?

Just the idea has me in stiches...you forgot to say 40/50 year old guys with huge beer guts!!!

@jeeves - if England beat Portugal, then they'll play in the semi-final in Munich on July 5th

I repeat my question: How will banning them from Munich make a difference? That's really going to make them quake in their boots.