Munich road accidents involving cyclists

For not wearing a helmet, you mean. Not very good ones I'm afraid, I hardly ever ride a bike, just a quick trip to the shops along a cycle path, so no danger from cars. With skiing I can't even wear a hat, it makes my head itch so much and I'm a pretty slow skier so the danger of any serious head injuries are pretty small. I think a helmet would affect my ability to concentrate on what I was doing, but like a motorcycle crash hat or seatbelts, I'd probably get used to it. I certainly wouldn't try to pretend that wearing a helmet would be more dangerous than not wearing one.

Yes that's what I meant - I was curious because I just never really gave it much thought before either and now I just can't believe I was ever that complacent and wondered what's going through the heads of all the other helmetless people I see, cos they are in the majority. Sounds like you think about it pretty much the same way as I did - a false sense of security cos we're on nice cycle paths, not going fast and, well, cos everyone else is doing it.
EDIT: Huh.. why would a helmet affect your ability to concentrate!? Believe me, concussion and searing pain will affect it more... and I was meandering along a cycle path too.

Because it would irritate me so much, just like a hat does, but as I said I'd probably get used to it. I do get pretty warm when I ski though, I'm not one of these people who have to dress up like they're going to the Antarctic when I go skiing.

That is probably one of dumbest things I have ever seen posted here.
So what if you were a ski instructor or patroller - it doesn't mean that someelse isn't going to run into you on the trail while you are standing there giving a lesson. And as far as 'learning proper technique and skiing within my abilities' - surely you jest - I've been skiing since I was little, I raced for a number of years and there's not a whole lot in Austria that isn't 'within my abilities'. But, hey, noone's perfect! I fall every now and then because I'm challenging myself. Show me a person who doesn't fall skiing and I'll show you someone who doesn't challenge themselves.

Maybe you should ask Scott Macartney (U.S. Ski Team) if he was happy that he was wearing his helmet? He hit nothing but the ground and he would not have survived if he hadn't been wearing his helmet.

Horrific Scott Macartney crash in Austria

Ah I see. I must admit I'm still adjusting to the realm of helmetness, like realising that I shouldn't have put my hair up that morning or that I've taken a hat that is too thick to go under my helmet and I'm bloody cold... if I hadn't had the accidents I could imagine gradually forgetting the helmet more and more... but I guess that's why I'm banging on about it here so much, those really are very very minor irritations and now that I'm getting used to it and figuring out the most practical way for me to carry it etc it's bothering me less and less already.

But that's the problem with odds and convenience (and this weird Munich-coccoon syndrome I suffered from) isn't it; so many otherwise sensible, intelligent adults overlook glaring risks because nothing has happened for so long... it's only ever other people, other places. So since I can't go back and cop myself on retrospectively, I am preaching to people who probably think just like I did instead!

This thread need Pictures..

I enjoy skiing without a helmet, and have my reasons for not wearing one. I gave one that everyone here seems to think is ridiculous. Too bad.

Scott Macartney is a pro skier, moving at speeds of up to 140km an hour. Most recreational skiers don't come anywhere close to that, as you know. I'm not saying it's wrong to wear a helmet, I'm just saying there are a lot better ways to protect yourself from injury. Skiing well - that is, knowing what lies ahead of you, knowing your ability and skiing within it on every terrain, will protect you a lot more than anything you wear on your head. If that means you don't fall, then so what? Just because you don't fall doesn't mean you're not enjoying a good day of skiing.

But it does mean you haven't been unlucky so far.
Just because you're a good skier and aware of your own abilities/limitations doesn't mean you won't ever fall. Can you tell us more of your reasons please, maybe we'll find one that won't be rubbished.

Ah Helmut, I was waiting for him to pop up.

Yes, Scott M. was travelling at speeds that most of us will never attain but even if he had been skiing much slower and without a helmet, he could have been killed. I know my limits and I would say (other than on a race course) I'm completely under control at all times (because I have to look out for the nitwits that aren't).

Suit yourself. Next you'll be saying that it's ridiculous to be wearing a helmet while motorcycle riding because, really, you have the same excuses as those idiots have.

Or it could be asked why you don't wear a helmet when driving like race car drivers do? Just in case something happens.

Fair enough point - or at least a nice juicy one. There's nothing between them and the road and their cars don't have airbags! And while pro skiers are clearly better than the vast majority of amateur skiers, that's not so much the case with drivers... race car drivers are trained to drive race cars in races; your average joe driver has lots of training driving in the day to day environment, they are not necessarily worse drivers and the race car driver won't necessarily be the better driver in city traffic or at parallel parking etc as it will depend on his experience there, maybe he hardly ever drives in the real world.

I love wearing a helmet, it gives me the best excuse for having bad hair.

Stupid question cause I'm sure just going to a shop and trying some on is fine. But anyone have some amazing space aged, or just simple, helmet that they can recommend? This thread and the stories have made me decide it's very very stupid to be riding to work without some protection.

Also for biking... not for skiing to work

You can't compere the two, IMO. Motorcycles travel at much faster speeds than I would ever achieve on skies and there is absolutely nothing soft about the surface they travel on. Plus a huge amount of motorcycle accidents are caused by hitting cars and I've noticed that there are never any cars on the pistes. Well except the piste machines and if you can't stop skiing into one of them great big lumbering things you obviously haven't got any brains to protect!

I don't ride a motorcycle, and probably never will. Why do you assume I will comment about something I have no interest in?

And there is absolutely nothing soft about a ski slope when your head hits it at +40kph.
I could give you all kinds of statistics about people who have died on the slopes after hitting their heads on the ground or, worse, against someone else's head (or body). you don't have to hit an inanimate object.

Good job Deetz, you're doing the right thing.

Nor is there anything soft about your skis when the edge of one of them hits the back of your head even at far less than 40 kph. It doesn't hurt but just look at all that red snow.

I'd rather hit snow than tarmac or a concrete kerbstone. I don't think you shouldn't wear a helmet, I just don't want to. If I rode a bike around Munich, I probably would wear one as well.

Industry experts, as well as emergency room doctors, warn that helmets are no substitute for responsible behavior on the slopes and that in the case of headstrong skiers, especially teenagers, they may encourage foolish behavior by providing a false sense of security.

Article

It should be your right not to wear a helmet and it should also be the insurance companies right not to pay for any injuries you may sustain because you've chosen to excercise that right.

Good point ER.


It doesn't make any difference - both are gonna hurt and be potentially fatal.

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY FOR YOU!!! Good on ya!

I found the brand Giro good because all the others seemed to look either very boring, too masculine, too sporty or way too girly. This brand has a range of non flower-bedecked helmets for ze ladeez that come in nice shades. They are also ultra light, really easy to adjust and apparently do very well on the whole not cracking your skull bit.

I agree with ER. Someone asked me if I'd considered suing Munich for not gritting the road properly and I just gasped... I was cycling in icy weather without a helmet 2 months after being hit by a car... bad luck at best, any fault lies clearly with me. And if avoiding serious injury isn't enough of an incentive, the feeling of complete and utter embarrassing stupidity you have while sitting in the hospital with your head wrapped in bandages explaining you didn't have a helmet on should be.

Understood, ER, but then it would be logical to extend that to motorcycles too, eh.
And then it becomes more a question of proving whether the injuries would have been as bad or incurred at all when wearing a helmet, which would cost the insurance companies time and money and they would probably just say "broken leg, no helmet? we ain't paying." Exaggeration to make a point, but hey.

True, it has to be said that insurance companies are complete and utter wankers so I think I'll give moral victory to ER (as so often) but practical victory to the Jeevemeister. Well, with my track record I would, wouldn't I.

I can live with that, people should be allowed to be idiots if they so choose but they have to be prepared to pay for the consequences. Sure it's open to abuse but insurance policies do already have clauses for negligence, at least car insurances do. If you were someone who desperately enjoys biking without a helmet you could in theory than buy a "zusatzversicherung" that covers helmetless riding.

>shrug< OK, then if the dangers of cycling / skiing without a helmet are well-known, and victims who refuse to wear one are injured can be denied insurance coverage, why not deny coverage to smokers? Where do you draw the line?

I don't draw the line, that's an excellent point. Further, smokers do pay higher insurance premiums. Cyclists who don't wear helmets should too.

ER, I agree with Mehithingy in that I agree with you in theory and myself in practice.
I did sustain above-mentioned head injury when skiing (hardly moving at all at the time in fact, but still half a head-shave and nine stitches) but I still don't wear any head protection when skiing because it buggers up the sun-on-my-face and wind-in-my-hair factor.
I don't wear one when cycling either, but that's mainly because I couldn't be arsed to go and buy one.
I do wear one when (motor)biking, partly because it's illegal not to, but mainly because it keeps the rain and/or flies off, which at speeds of considerably more than 40 km/h makes a slight difference.

I understand what you're saying but it's not impossible to determine whether a person has been negligant we can do it with pretty much any other kind of insurance, why not health insurance?

OK perhaps making someone pay out of their own pocket for any injuries that could have been avoided is a bit harsh but your premiums should most certainly go up.

My point was not that you can't do that, but that it would cost the insurance company time and money to do so, so that would make them even more likely to set out to screw you and anybody else insured with them just to spread the burden.

It's an interesting idea, but I think the premiums would be so high that nobody would be able to afford it.

Today's bike and ski helmets are so light and comfortable that I feel naked (almost) without one. Honestly, when I first came to Germany in 2001, I saw no one (other than a few racer type skiers) wearing helmets. People were looking at me like I was some sort of freak. But, that quickly changed and it's more like if you're not wearing one you are a freak. Sure, I used to love the wind in my hair too but I don't really want to end up a vegetable that can't even comb my own hair. I have heard way too many stories from my ski patrol friends to take that chance.

That's the thing, Allers, the insurance companies would (understandably) squeeze the dosh out of us somehow.

Kitkat, I hear ya, but... I had my incident around 2001 and there was a kid with us who wore a helmet. It looked like a motorbike helmet and weighed about 4 lbs. The image of him has stuck in my mind and although I noticed again this year that they are getting less cumbersome and dorky looking (and more people are wearing them) I personally am not ready to embrace the trend quite yet. Hell, I only acquired carving skis 2 years ago.

Aw come on, I'm trying to convince myself I look shit hot in mine! It only weights 250g though and I didn't see anything that weighed much more than that and I honestly don't think it looks that bad. I do hate carrying it around though so I tried locking it to my bike last time I parked it, with the lock through the holes in the top. Seems like a good solution, it can't be nicked without nicking my bike too and then I've got bigger problems anyway.

Well, maybe in the States they do, but I don't remember ever being asked whether I smoke or not while up for my BKK. Do private insurers here offer non-smokers a break?

My insurance does. They also offer a special rate for non-smokers who are not overweight and don't have high blood pressure at the time of joining, something like 20% reduction.

Care to let us know which one it is? This is news to me, but then again, haven't been insurance shopping for a while.

HanseMerkur, it's called the Start Fit programme and I found them through a broker, he's a friend of a friend and his family have been in the business for years and years so they have access to tonnes of info on lots of places; I could compare loads of offers in detail in a way I would never have been able to sifting through it on my own. I still think I pay a lot but ze Germans seem to think I've got a great deal at €280 per month for a non-smoking, healthy, 31 yr old female.

Well, back then, this is all they had for kids. My ski helmet is very light, I don't even notice it. And it's warm when it's cold and, yes, warm when it's warm too. It only takes a couple of ski days to get used to it.
As for bike helmets...in this town, you are nuts if you don't wear one.

As far as I know all private insurance companies expect you to disclose whether you're a smoker and adjust your premiums accordingly.

Thanks for that. Are you paying the whole shot - ie not splitting with an employer?

I suppose you don't bother to wear a seat belt in your car, because you're such a good driver?

There is always one idiot in the crowd. In this crowd, you are him.

No, I wear a seat belt in cars, and I ride my bike with a helmet. The fact that I feel comfortable skiing without a helmet makes me an idiot?

The fact that you advocate it as sensible does indeed.

I'm not saying it's wrong to wear a helmet skiing, I just don't like wearing one and gave a couple of reasons why not. If that makes me an idiot, then guilty as charged. I recall one kid in my class was wearing this helmet for three days before a doctor came by and pointed the kid out, said the design was so faulty, if he'd fallen forward onto his chin, his neck would have snapped back, possibly rendering him a quad. I later told his father, who didn't believe me, thought that just because he was wearing a helmet, he was safer.

Are you really suggesting that it is safer to ski without a helmet than it is to ski with one?

That depends on the helmet. Some designs just make it more likely that you'll break your neck instead of cracking your skull. Safety testing and approval has gotten better in the last few years so you're probably fine with most new ones. But watch out for cheap copies of popular brands, made with sub-standard material that provides no real protection. Sometimes you do just get what you pay for.

My wife works with brain damaged patients. Six as a result of bicycle accidents. They also have a problem concentrating.
How come in a country regulated like Germany it's not mandatory?
Wear a helmet folks, most things can be repaired, but the brain

I'm all for helmets, but it shouldn't be mandatory, at least not for adults. People should be free to make their own decisions, and if they choose to make stupid ones they have to live with the consequences.

and the state can pick up the tab.

I sort of agree on helmets, but thinking about it you could say the same thing about seat belts