Many Germans don't know where Ireland is

I think most people on the planet know where Ireland is located. As for understanding accents, a German friend told me that they can tell you are from an English-speaking country, but probably cannot ascertain which one.

In my time I have been mistaken for: Danish, Canadian, typical Czech person, French, Swedish, an English soldier (that hurt!) and German. Anything that is north of both the Alps and the Rio Grande.

I think you are overestimating the collective intelligence of the human race.

I have been mistaken for: French, Italian, Spanish, Portugeese, Persian, Albanian, Greek, Brazilian and American.

What I find bizarre is when they ask me where I'm from, I say England, they ask "whereabouts in England?" I say "the north of England", and they say "Oh, you're Scottish then?"

What's really weird is that when Germans hear me speaking German, they usually think I'm either Dutch or Scandinavian, and when Scots people hear me speaking English, they ask me if I'm Scottish.

You will find the level of 'idiocy' in Bavaria is unparalled, they are all experts on your very own country(actually knowing very little if nothing at all)!

I am continually being accused of being English but when I point out that I am from Scotland I was once pedantically corrected with a tart 'Well that IS in England'. She refused bto believe me when I said no. Fecker!

I´ve also noticed that many (not all) germans don´t seem to realise that Britain is made up of four different nations. It doesn´t matter how often you explain it, they don´t seem to (want to?) understand it.

I had a colleague who wasn´t even aware of the situation in Northern Ireland. I don´t know what she learnt in history.

On the other hand, we were in Brighton a few years ago and the landlord of our B&B reckoned I spoke English with a german accent !

Taught my German teacher (native bavarian) some flat northern vowels the other day; she sounded like Gracy Fields -

I'm afraid that happens to me as well...

So I'm in the mess that I speak German with an accent (though well enuf to confuse many a person) and now dont speak my native language properly

Here's something that should confuse zee Germans even more. The term British Isles has been removed from Irish textbooks. I've always found this phrase a little stupid myself, a bad hangover from empire really.

That makes all the difference then

I had much the same thing, except when I said "south of England" the guy said "Oh, you're French". Bastard.

Do you know the meaning of 'Arschloch' ...if not, look in a mirror

Anyone who needs to look at his profile to figure out where Cruiser is from needs geography lessons too!

I can bet the Germans don't know where Wales is either. Yiyes, ze Wales, I zink dat is nechst to Ireland?

In the UK claiming Welsh/Irish/ Scottish heritage and actually coming from those places can not always be assumed. Its even more confusing when you take into account the "Peoples Republic of Yorkshire" and the Cornish separatists.

Well, I suspect I've got English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh ancestry, so I like to be vague and just say I'm "British". Or better still, "European".

LOL! Perhaps so.

However, I do not think it a matter of intelligence. I simply think most people are uninterested and do not really care all that much. The result is they have merely a vague notion of a country's true characteristics.

I'm from oop north of England and I get asked if I'm Scottish from southerners!

Saw an item about Cardiff the other day in the Bild which said that it's in England.

Germans I've met in New York and have spent time there have awsome American accents. I dont know how they do it. I hope after time I will sound as good in German here as they do there. I've heard one German speak with an Irish accent and he says he has never been there, but tells people he is Irish. Tells people his name is Patty too. He lies alot. It was a couple of my friends who found out he was just some german obssesed with Ireland. You can find him at the hostels near Hauptbahnhof. But yea, Germans with really really advanced english usually have some sort of american accent. From my experiences.

I know what you mean - I forget words occasionally, however as long as I speak English now and then it isn´t so bad. I have difficulties explaining my job in English, because I learnt what I do here.

I´ve noticed elsewhere on TT that you´ve been in Germany longer than I have, so your English is probably further gone than mine ! I met an english bloke a couple of years ago who´d been here since 1982, his English was terrible!

Regarding the discussion: we´re all Europeans aren´t we?

I would say some have British accents as well. The Danes are similar as well with their American accents. According to a Danish friend of mine, most Danes learn their English from the TV, shows like Friends.

~Oma~

Lets all learn Irish...start here Irish saysings and phrases!

Éirinn go Brách

I think the confusion between Scotland and Ireland has been around a long time - see the English translation of http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottenkloster.

As for the 23rd official European language see http://europa.eu/index_ga.htm - don't be afraid to click on the links, they allpoint to English language pages anyway.

And as for knowing where our fellow Europeans are, how many Irish aside from dedicated football fans could have found Lithuania, Latvia and Macedonia a few years ago?

I got a real sense there was a lot of misunderstanding from non-Irish/non-UK about what the various terms, Ireland, Eire etc. mean, so I'm going to give it a go trying to explain them (as best I can):

Geographically:

Ireland = an island west of Britain (containing the Republic of Ireland, an independent country and EU-member; and Northern Ireland, a component of the United Kingdom)
Britain (or Great Britain) = an island east of Ireland (containing England, Scotland and Wales: each a component of the United Kingdom)

British Isles = Ireland + Britain... technically... but many people in the Republic of Ireland don't like the term because they are ultra-sensitive about anything which could be possibly interpreted as Britain ruling Ireland.

Politically:

There are two sovereign states:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - covering the entire island of Great Britain + Northern Ireland
The Republic of Ireland - covering most of the island of Ireland.

Confusingly, this state uses the short form, Ireland, also to refer to itself. This is in part, because for much of this century, the Republic of Ireland constitutionally claimed Northern Ireland as part of its state, even though in practice it recognised the status quo of it being part of the UK. Since a referendum about 10 years ago, as part of the Belfast Agreement (also known as the Good Friday Agreement) the Republic of Ireland no longer constitutionally claims this territory.

Within the UK, different regions are often to referred as countries even though they are not sovereign states, due to differences in history and culture. These are:
England (by far the most popolous), Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (in this case not so much considered a country, but rather, a region).

It should be noted that, unlike Germany and the US, the relationship between constituency country and the UK is not necessarily a federal one. Some constituent countries have their own parliaments and devolved powers, some don't, and this situation has varied a lot throughout the last 100 years.

Éire is a word in Irish Gaelic for Ireland, and can mean either Ireland the state (i.e. The Republic of Ireland) or Ireland, the island, but typically the former.

The People:

In each constituent country of the UK, the majority popular will of the people there is to remain in the UK although each region has minority support (in varing degrees) for independence. In England, Scotland and Wales, typically people refer to themselves as both Scottish and British, Welsh and British etc., although some people choose to identify with only one of the two terms. This sometimes has a connection with their political position on membership of the UK, and sometimes not.

It is generally not taken as offensive for one person to be called another term even if it is not their preference.

In Northern Ireland, there are severe divisions between those who want to remain part of the UK (typically mostly Protestant, and a majority) and those who would rather be part of the Republic of Ireland (typically mostly Catholic, a significant minority).

People from the first group would typically refer to themselves from a varying subset of: British, Northern Irish or Irish. Although technically in a geographical sense, using the term British is incorrect, as there is no real term to describe people from the UK (such as UKers), the term British is often substituted with this intent in mind.

People from the second group would typically refer to themselves from a varying subset of: Irish and Northern Irish.

Often offence can be taken if the non-preffered term (British / Irish etc.) is applied to a given person.

In the Republic of Ireland, natives typically refer to themselves simply as Irish. This term is not exactly defined but is usually intended to mean all others born or closely connected to the Republic of Ireland, and all those from Northern Ireland who choose to identify themselves as much. Typically, offense is often taken, if the wrong term like British or English is used instead.

Historically (the short version):

From about 1800 until the early part of the century, there was only one political sovereign state on both islands. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

People in the Republic of Ireland fought a war of independence which eventually culminated in a separate state, and eventually a completely separate republic for most of the island of Ireland, but not it all (a bone of contention for many Irish people for many decades, but not so much any more).

Languages:

The vast vast bulk of people in both islands and both states speak English as their native language and typically their only fluent language. In Wales, there are some regions [a minority] where people speak Welsh (a Celtic language) as their native and first languages, but generally with native-level English also. There are also many Welsh from other regions who speak English as their first language, but also speak some Welsh in varying degrees, having learnt it in school etc.

In the Republic of Ireland, there are small regions where Irish Gaelic (another Celtic language) is the native and first language of the inhabitants. However, first-language Irish Gaelic speakers amount to about 0.05% of the total population, and almost exclusively are fluent in English also. English is the first language of the masses, but Irish Gaelic is an obligatory subject for all Irish schoolchildren from about 4/5 through to 17/18. However, only a small minority of the population have fluency as the language is not widely used.

There is also a language, Scottish Gaelic, but the language is not spoken natively.

In both Wales and the Republic of Ireland, the respective Gaelic language often has large political importance and can be a very politically-sensitive subject. There are strong linguistic-revivalist movements, and government signs are often in both languages and sometimes even only in the minority language alone. Irish Gaelic, for example, is an official language of the EU, inspite of its low number of speakers, due to the large political importance assigned to it in the Irish political psyche (of many, but not all!).

So to summarise:

Ireland - could mean the Republic of Ireland, could mean the geographical island containing the Republic of Ireland + Northern Ireland
Irish - could mean someone from the Republic, or someone from the entire irelan.d
Britain - anywhere from England, Scotland, Wales
British - can in practice mean anyone from anywhere in the UK

And there are about 6 national identities, with some affiliations overlapping:
British - people from the UK, often with a strong sense of binding between the various constituent countries
Ireland - people from the Republic of Ireland, with some affiliation from a minority of Northern Irish
Welsh - people from Wales, in varying degrees relative to an affiliation with an overall British identity
English - people from England, in varying degrees relative to an affiliation with an overall British identity
Scottish - people from Scotland, in varying degrees relative to an affiliation with an overall British identity
Northern Irish - minority of people from Northern Ireland who would rather affiliate with it independently of either an Irish or UK identity

Hmmmmmmmmm. Or at least that's my understanding of it all. I hope I didn't get any of it wrong... I'm sure someone will kindly tell me if I did!

Now perhaps here's the real point. I lived in Ireland (the Republic) for 20-something years and I can [barely] define it all.

How on earth can we expect people from other countries, and who speak different languages to us, to get the terminology all right in all its ever-so-complex glory?

The safest bet to minimize your chances of rubbing someone up the wrong way is, of course, to remember how they self-describe. But failing that, the best bet is to go with the lowest available level, be it England, Scotland, Wales, Republic of Ireland (or just Ireland, if you are sure this person is from the Republic) or Northern Ireland: this approach will rarely cause offence.

"British - can in practice mean anyone from anywhere in the UK

And there are about 6 national identities, with some affiliations overlapping:
British - people from the UK, often with a strong sense of binding between the various constituent countries"

This is where you're wrong. On the British Passport it says " United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland". People from Norther Ireland aren't British. UK citizens aren't necessarily British.

AFAIK, Ireland is the official name (or one of the official names if you include Éire) and Republic of Ireland is the official description of the state.

I should add that citizens of Northern Ireland hold what is generally known as a "British Passport".

not just in practice. In theory too


no the original was correct as i understand it. The official citizenship of all citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland is British, including those from N Ireland

as mentioned above, its not really surprising foreigners don't know the finer points

You may be right in the diplomatic sense. As I said, when Ulstermen go abroad they hold a "British Passport". Great Britain is still only that little island off the east coast of Ireland ... Scotland, England and Wales.

are you sure they're citizens and not subjects? ;-)

And people from N. Ireland are entitled to an Irish passport if they want one - this was part of the Good Friday agreement.

eof wins the award for the most pointless post recently, cut n paste is about pointing out relevant parts huh?

sorry double post.

I meant to point out as well that the British Isles includes lots of islands, not just Britain and Ireland - also Isle of Man, Aran Islands, Arran Islands, etc.

Oh another quaint aspect to it all that I previously forgot to mention is that, although Éire is an official name of the Republic of Ireland/Ireland, its usage is in practice kinda semi-taboo, especially by foreigners. So it's best not to use it at all.

In previous decades the term Éire acquired a negative stereotype of being associated with people from the UK (including the BBC) using it, meaning it as the Republic of Ireland, although next to nobody in Ireland actually ever used the term itself. I don't know how justified the development of the stereotype was, but the perception was that the usage of the term often carried a demeaning intent, and was to avoid actually referring to the Republic of Ireland by the moniker Ireland (due to Northern Ireland and associated conflict). That's why it's never really used any more.

And while often used with the intent of clarifying whether referring to the Republic of Ireland or the entire island of Ireland, this intent betrayed a lack of understanding of what the term actually means. It can mean either, as it is simply Irish Gaelic for "Ireland".

The other more practical reason why it's best to avoid using it is that, even amongst Irish Gaelic speakers, the term is almost never used. This is due to grammar and cases (something I know little about, but I guess many German speakers here might do), but Éire is the nominative form, and this rarely is used in conversational Irish Gaelic relative to other forms (deriving from other cases) such as Na hEireann/Éireann. Most Irish people have poor Irish Gaelic and thus don't really associate Éire with Ireland in Irish Gaelic, as it is almost always the latter form they are exposed to in everyday life... Radio Teilifís Éireann, Dáil Éireann etc.

Although in EU meetings, I think Ireland is now described as Éire/Ireland (or something like that), due to Irish Gaelic being made an official language of the EU.

Absolute nonsense. Éire is on the Irish stamps and Irish euro coins and Ireland is to be known as Éire/Ireland at EU meetings. If Irish people didn't want people to call it Éire why would they put it on the stamps?

I have no problem with people saying Éire, but no-one ever does.

It's like Finland is Suomi but no-one outside of Finland calls it that.

Or even Germany in Germany is "Deutschland", but no-one is going to say "I'm just back from my holidays in Deutschland" while speaking English.

Well if you say so... although I'm hardely imagining it all, now am I?

Reference Wikipedia
or Page 14 of this guide on visiting Ireland by an English Tourism agency
or thread on politics.ie


Good for you, nor do I, but that's hardly the point is it, because neither of us constitute the population of Ireland.


I think part of the reason Eire got the negative associations was precisely because foreigners were seen to be using the term, and the not the locals.

On the subject of mildly confused Germans: Christian Pauls, the German ambassador to Ireland. He may have mixed up pundit and diplomat. Although, it's unclear as to what he said in German exactly, as it was an unscripted speech, made to a delegation of 80 visiting German industrialists. I'd love to get a hold of a transcript of his speech somewhere and ascertain for myself.

Jain
Although "Ulster" is often used as a synonym of "Northern Ireland", it's not exactly the same.
There are 9 counties in Ulster: 6 of them in Northern Ireland, 3 in the Republic of Ireland.

So some Ulstermen have an Irish passport.

You will actually find that all Northern Irish men (and ladies) are entitled to have both a British and an Irish passport in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement. Irrespective of belonging to the provincial Ulster or the NI Ulster

Ha, you don't know me then! I lived in the UK for over seven years (I am German) and I definitely don't have an American accent. Nor a German one, if I may say so. I've been asked if I'm Irish, South African or Kiwi when speaking to people on the phone. Usually though, British people can just hear a bit of an accent but cant place it and assume I'm from somewhere within the UK perhaps. The reason why you might think that most Germans have an American accent is because in school here you get taught more of an American English than British English. I definitely did and had to learn a lot when I first arrived in London.

Me personally, even though I lived there for so long and have quite a good ear for accents or language in general, I mix up Scottish and Irish accents sometimes; I just get confused sometimes, probably because there's quite a variety of Scottish and Irish accents, and when they're not very strong I find it difficult. Must say, thinking about it I cant remember when that last happened; maybe I don't anymore...?!

I'd imagine that the reason it annoys people is the attitude "if you are going to say something about my country, at least get its name right".

When speaking English, Ireland is Ireland and when speaking Irish, Éire.

Maybe it is the same way that Brits get upset when Irish people refer to "perfidious Albion".

But it wouldn't bother me that much.

I dont like when people ask me.. are you from Srilanka? ( because of the big Lankan immigration crowd in Germany i guess)..
and i say.. no but know the insignificant big piece of land just to the north of SL.. thats the one.. and they go like "ohh... sorry mate!"
lol.. i love that.. not that am against SL.. its a beautiful country too..

I have the same problem as I am Scottish, one of the vast majority who have never felt British. I was once asked what Xmas was like in England, just simply answered that I didn´t know as I had never been there at Xmas. England, being the most most economically potent English speaking country in Europe is the one most people on the continent hear about. Just let them know that you take offence at being called English, as I do, and infer that they would, too, at being called French.

`S mise,

Iain

I'm English (disgustingly pure-bred English, my mother is spending her retirement tracing the family roots in all directions, and so far I am disappointed not to even have one vaguely foreign ancestor, even Welsh), and one of my pedantic hobbies is pointing out to people that they probably mean Britain when they're talking about England, and what a jolly good thing it is I'm not Welsh, Scottish or Irish (or Manx or Cornish or Rockall Islander) otherwise I would have taken great insult.

You Celtic lot should hurry up with your independence thingies, then we can sort out this terminology issue once and for all. ;-)

Well you seem to have sorted things out. You're ensconced in the land of your forebears - the arid Saxons.

Being an American in Germany, I constantly get asked if I am English or Brit and I don't take offense. Although, I probably should.

Er, dis is Preußen where I am. None of your Saxons here (apart from half the population of eastern Berlin). Anyway, about the time the Saxons were becoming the Poles of the 10th century, hereabouts was populated mainly by Slavs. And I like to think my ancestors are all Normans, which gives me the hereditary right to wear a viking helmet whenever the mood takes me.


I used to be a Brit in Japan... The automatic assumption was that I was American. I think it was the Canadians I knew who suffered the most though .

Being Viking would give you that right, not Norman.

I guess being Norman would give you the hereditary right to shoot people in the eye, but don't call me on that.

Actually, being Norman would give you the right to wear a viking helmet I suppose, them being Men from the Nordic countries and all. (Ye olde folk migration says that the vikings also invaded and settled in northern France)