Auslander voting rights in Germany

Before I moved to Germany last year I was very active politically in East London. In the last election on the campaign trail I came across a ward secretary in Bethnall Green and Bow who was Austrian. He was passionately comitted to the party and had been a member in Bethnnall Green and Bow for many years. However, as an EU citizen living as an Auslander in the UK he was not entitled to vote in the election he was campaigning in. Not only that, but as an EU national I understood he could not apply for the UK citizenship that would entitle him to vote (unlike non Europeans who by dint of permanent residence, can apply for national citizenship and gain the vote).

This is the first time I came across the auslander voting problem. There were thousands of EU nationals living in London, paying income tax and directly affected by government decisions but even if they lived there for the rest of their living days they would be permanently disenfranchised for national elections (EU and local elections they can vote in). Even prisoners have a better deal.

So off I trog to Munich and find myself in the midst of an election I cannot help to be interested in. Politics is in my blood and many of the issues being debated here in germany are at the very crux of our European future. But I cannot vote and unless things change I never will be able to vote.

Paradoxically, I can stand for election here in Germany but cannot vote in that same election.

We, as European auslanders, in whatever country we live in in the EU are permanently disenfranchised. In our democratic institutions at the netional level, we have no voice.

It seems to me that the tax authorities find it easy to classify our comittment to the nations we live in but the voting authorities are blind to us. In the words of the Boston teaparty, NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

I would be interested to hear if there is anyone else on TT who feels a concern about this issue.

Were you working for Oona King or George Galloway?

Are you more concerned that you have to pay taxes in Germany, or that you can't vote at the national level in Germany?

Would you rather pay taxes to the UK, then, since you can presumably still vote there? Would that solve your problem?

i think he'd probably prefer not to pay ANY taxes. At least i would. But wasn't it your bunch that coined the phrase "no taxation blah blah"? You should really understand what is meant. You make a country the focus point of your life, you abide by the rules, you pay your taxes (in some people's cases quite hefty amounts) yet your opinions on how those taxes should be raised and spent mean diddly squat. The problem is not restricted to Germany or Britain, it is a fundamental problem with restrictions countries make on giving voting rights solely to citizens rather than all residents.

Hardly. You do get to go home, don't you?

well, my constituency was Poplar and Canning Town so no, I was campaigning for Jim Fitzpatrick. But we did try and help Oona against that odious impostor gorgeous George

I was meaning in terms of voting rights. There are moves to give incracerated prisoners throughout Europe the right to vote in national elections.

Um, yeah, OG, as I recall the story was our lot didn't want to pay any more taxes to your lot.

I just don't understand how you can get around this problem. I'd certainly rather pay taxes to the US, since I'd save a lot of cash over paying taxes in Germany. I'd also rather vote in the state I consider my home state, instead of the state from which I moved here, but them's the rules.

We pay taxes here because we are using the infrastructure and public services here. I don't think it would be fair for non-US citizens to vote in US elections. There's currently a huge kerfuffle going on there about immigration issues, and I don't think it would make all the immigrant-bashing any better if they could also vote. I can't imagine it would make the Germans any friendlier towards non-citizen immigrants, either, if it was felt that they could sway the vote.

agreed. But the issue of European Auslanders is more easily addressed politically and changing it is a more achievable goal. For non-European citizens, in the UK at any rate, they can become national citizens in due course and vote in national elections - a right not extended to European auslanders in most EU nations.

one solution would be to grant voting rights to citizens and long-term residents alike.


I think as a someone who might consider themselves living temporarily in a foreign country that might be quite natural. It is quite different for someone who dedicates their life to their adopted country, or even someone who might not plan to stay permanently but certainly for a very long period of time, enought to have "invested" quite a lot in that country.

so why shouldn't we have a say in how those taxes are raised and spent?


I agree it is a very dangerous issue in many people's eyes. One that brigns out the old-school conservative feelings in even the most liberal people. But you haven't actually given one good reason why someone who has made a country their home for the long haul should be treated any differently than someone who just happened to be born their.

something i totally agree with. ie extending full voting rights to all EU citizens in whichever EU country they reside. It is a start and could show the way internationally.


are you sure about that? Britain allows dual citizenship and there is a process for naturalisation of long-term residents. It would very much surprise me if this excluded EU citizens.

Glad there is someone who sees it the same way. Would you be interested in participating in a campaign on this cause. I am writing at present to various MEPs and MPs to find out what work is being done in this area. Would be happy to keep you posted if you want.


I might be wrong about this and it may differ fom country to country but from what I understand the advent of the EU passport ended the natural right for EU auslanders to adopt the nationality of their chosen abode if it was another EU nation. As I say, I might be wrong about this as it was an Austrian living in London who first told me that and to date I have not found anything that contradicts it.

there is nothing i can find excluding EU citizens from naturalising (ie becoming British citizens). These are the requirements and they appear to apply to everyone equally:

"Naturalisation is not an entitlement and a decision can only be made to grant citizenship if you can demonstrate that you satisfy the legal requirements and the Home Secretary thinks fit.

The legal requirements you should meet before you are apply are that you:

1. Are aged 18 or over when you apply
2. Are of sound mind, so that you understand the step you are taking
3. Intend to continue to live in the UK, or to enter or continue in Crown Service, the service of an international organisation of which the UK is a member or the service of a company or association established in the UK
4. Can communicate in English (or Welsh or Scottish Gaelic) to an acceptable degree
5. Have sufficient knowledge about life in the UK (this requirement will apply to all applications received by the Home Office on or after 1 November 2005
6. Are of good character
7. Have lived legally in the UK for a minimum of five years before you apply (three years if you are applying on the basis of marriage to a British citizen) and are free from immigration time restrictions."

since Britain allows multiple citizenship, there also shouldn't be a problem about having to give up your citizenship of birth, unless, of course, that country does not recognise dual or multiple citizenship.

Bell the Cat has been here one year. I don't think he should have any right to vote in German national elections yet.

He can apply for German citizenship after being legally resident 8 years, which would allow him voting priviledges.

Also if you wish to vote in Germany, and have lived here long enough you could apply for German citizenship. You no longer have to give up your British passport to do so, and you would then have voting rights here.

Edit: sorry about the echo

Is that giving rights to all prisoners equally or just along national lines, i.e. UK prisoners can vote in UK elections etc. And what are the stipulations like length of time spent in the country? Or are they really proposing to allow all prisoners, regardless of nationality, passport status, or duration in the country to vote in national elections.

hmmm, seems you are correct OG. Having checked the Home Office website I see that it is possible to apply for citizenship of you are an EAA national and have been resident for five years.

However, having delved a bit further I find that for all purposes other than voting in national elections EU auslanders have parity with home nationals. As such I can maybe understand why many do not go through the bureaucratic process of adopting the new nationality and as such the process of becoming a citizen seems to be an inordinate barrier to participation in the electoral process. It is also notable that the UK confers automatic voting rights on the UK-resident citizens of three other EU nations:

Ireland
Malta
Cyprus

So it is possible to do this without the sky falling on our heads.

I think the idea was to give UK prisoners the right to vote in the constituency they were last resident in as a residnt UK citizen. I understand other member states either already have this or are in the process of doing the same.

why? Give me one good reason other than that this is the status quo. Surely if I have more knowledge of and comitment to the German political process than many German voters then that should count for something. And if they take my tax, why shouldn't I have the right to vote them in or out?


see my points above

'Cause you're a whinger. Whingers shouldn't be allowed to vote.

To prevent voting fraud. While you may debate the length of time, I believe there needs to be some minimum border-crossing time requirement.

Wait. Scratch that. Never mind. I'm gonna gather up a bunch of pikeys and go roving across Europe from election to election. Soon there will be enough of us that we'll be able to walk into a country and have an instant majority in any election. Our power will reign supreme!! WHO'S WITH ME???

Vote early. Vote often. It's the Chicago way.

Bell the Cat, even OG, who seems to agree with your point in principle, cites that voting rights should be granted to "long-term residents" and people who have "invested a lot in that country."

No one-year resident can be said to meet those standards. We can quibble over whether 8 years is too long or whether gaining citizenship is too heavy a burden to lay on someone who wants to vote in their chosen country of residency, but that's certainly up to the country's citizens to decide.

At least you are offered a path to citizenship and therefore potential voting rights in Germany.

[quote name='Joliet Jake' post='607215' date='May 27 2006, 5:38 pm']To prevent voting fraud. While you may debate the length of time, I believe there needs to be some minimum border-crossing time requirement.[/quote]

I can appreciate that argument but do not feel it is relevant. When you move house within the UK you can end up on two electoral rolls. Students often find themselves in this position too. And yet the incidence of voter fraud in these two groups of people is still relatively low. Auslanders only account for an average of 1.5% in any given EU nation and we are already given an immediate right to vote in local elections and elections to the European Parliament. Finally, Irish, Cypriot and Maltese people living in Britain do not have to take UK coitizenship to be given the vote which should point up one way that such an arrangement for auslanders might be accomodated.

[quote name='cinzia' post='607225' date='May 27 2006, 6:05 pm']No one-year resident can be said to meet those standards. We can quibble over whether 8 years is too long or whether gaining citizenship is too heavy a burden to lay on someone who wants to vote in their chosen country of residency, but that's certainly up to the country's citizens to decide.[/quote]

what is inherently better about the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots that they do not need to wait that length of time in the UK? Why are Germans, French and Italians not accorded the same rights?

and when 50% of any given resident population is usually so politically ignorant why does depriving immigrants, who are usually more educated and plugged in, of voting rights for 8 years in any way improve the quality of the electorate?

At least you are offered a path to citizenship and therefore potential voting rights in Germany.
[/quote]

hmmm, my quoting seems to have gone to pot so here it is again:


I can appreciate that argument but do not feel it is relevant. When you move house within the UK you can end up on two electoral rolls. Students often find themselves in this position too. And yet the incidence of voter fraud in these two groups of people is still relatively low. Auslanders only account for an average of 1.5% in any given EU nation and we are already given an immediate right to vote in local elections and elections to the European Parliament. Finally, Irish, Cypriot and Maltese people living in Britain do not have to take UK coitizenship to be given the vote which should point up one way that such an arrangement for auslanders might be accomodated.


what is inherently better about the Irish, Maltese and Cypriots that they do not need to wait that length of time in the UK? Why are Germans, French and Italians not accorded the same rights?

and when 50% of any given resident population is usually so politically ignorant why does depriving immigrants, who are usually more educated and plugged in, of voting rights for 8 years in any way improve the quality of the electorate?

In NZ foreigners with permanent residence can vote, without becoming citizens or giving up their own citizenship, its scandalous that foreigners here are expected to pay so much tax and are denied such a basic right as voting, but the german politics is so boring and the parties generally so far removed from my political ideals that it doesnt concern me too much, and I dont expect that much from such a foreigner-fearing society as germany anyway.

I guess the UK likes the idea of island nations.

You make a good case for lobbying against the current UK voter registration laws. Thank goodness other countries aren't so random!

except that for a Brit or a frenchperson or Italian living in germany, German politics is often not boring to us and very close to our own political environment and ideas.


actually, Ireland is a former constituent nation in the UK and both Malta and Cyprus were formerly UK dependencies. The voting rights for these nations all predate our accession to the EU.

Who's arguing about the quality of the electorate? An abstract concept, at best.

You are really showing a deep disregard for the German and UK citizenry here. We can assume that the citizens of these democratic countries want the voting-rights laws the way they are. You can go on a campaign to change those laws in the UK if you want, since you're a citizen, but you have no right to throw your weight around this issue in Germany, where you've only lived a year.

Your attitude in this matter is nothing short of arrogant.

actually they are. I think the Netherlands, France, Portugal, Spain and Belgium all have similar arrangements for their former dependencies too.

OK. Let me rephrase. Thank goodness Germany isn't so random.

er, you were. You were mplying that one year was not long enough for me to adequately grasp the finer ointricacies of German politics. I was merely indicating that was tripe.


in what way? I am actually talking about a Europe-wide extensioon of several directives that are already in place to give voting rights to auslanders for EU elections. I fail to see why this right to vote cannot similarly be afforded to national elections.

I note that in the United States, when citizens of one state move across the border into another state they are entitled to vote in the state elections of their new home. I do not see why we cannpot operate something similar in Europe.


how can we assume that? I really don't suppose most people in the EU are actually aware of the issues and if they are, care one way or the other about them. As I have noted above, there are alreay a great many anomalies in voter registration but I do not detect that they worry anyone overly much.


I am not throwing any weight around. I have raised the issue on here and I am currently discussing it with my UK MP and UK MEP. I amy also write to my German MEP as I am also part of his franchised electorate. Besides, I consider this an issue of the European state and not just the constituent parliaments of the European Union.


I don't think that is remotely fair.

I am not demanding a vote for me and I sincerely doubt that such a vote would be extended to me while I live in germany. However, it strikes me that we have on the one side anomalous voter registration and on the other a European Commission that takes the enfranchisement of EU citizenry very seriously.

So, why should the German government go through the trouble and expense of changing the current laws to accommodate a very small percentage of the population?

What is the percentage of foreigners living in Germany who are fluent/proficient in German? And what about the immigrants who are not educated and/or don't speak German?

Also, how would you handle local issues? Most foreigners only stay for a few years, so they don't care about long-term issues (schools, building codes).

because it is the fair thing to do. Besides I do not think such a change is appropriate to be introduced by individual European nations. I would rather it was introduced through the Commission and the Council of Ministers in the same way as the 1998 directive that gave us the right to vote in European Parliamentary elections in other European nations.


many of those immigrants who are not educated and don't speak German *do* have the vote here in Germany. In the UK at any rate, voting rights re given to successful asylum seekers and there is no requirement that they speak English before being given the vote.


only the Netherlands operates compulsory voting in the EU. In all other nations the politically unengaged can always exercise their indifference by not voting. For the rest of us though, that do care about the European economy, european integration, foreign policy, tax, education and health in our adopted homes, why should we *not* be permitted to vote on these matters?

In reality I would go further than this. The extension of voting rights in national elections to auslander residents is a relatively simple and justifiable reform given previous European legislation. However, personally I would like to see the right to vote given to all people who pay income tax in their chosen home - including non-Europeans resident in Europe. It seems to me that is a fair reform even if I am realistic enough to understand that it also stands almost no chance at success.

We held a long discussion on precisely this issue last year in the context of the german national election (I think I might have been the one who initiated it). I felt very strongly that in view of continuing EU integration that all EU citizens residing in other EU states to their "native" one should have rights to vote in all elections, not just local council and EU parliament ones. Views of Britboard readers were divided and we had quite a heated debate!

On the one hand I feel passionately about the issue and do have a certain interest in politics, but in view of the disenfranchisement that you have to accept when living in another EU state, and the stubborn attitudes prevailing, Im quite happy to leave the whole murky business of politics to others and abdicate all interest in it. Id be happy to have a "führer" appointed who will make all necessary decisions and carry the can for whatever happens, leaving me free to get on with my own life. Why bother myself with the big picture!

And it also has the advantage that I am not responsible for the economic mess and the ongoing stalemate here. Suits me. Die kochen ihre Suppe - die mussen sie essen!

Thanks Bell the Cat for your PM.

I dont wish to start on the issue again, we had a very long debate on it last year, I think the thread might still be on archive on BBoard. Ill just say if you are going to pursue "ever closer union" involving single currency, freedom of movement, rights of employment, residence, to set up in business, employ people, etc, then basic democratic rights to partake in all elections in the state in which you reside must also be part of that. I think "future history" will prove the point and people will look back at the present state of affairs with amazement, regarding it as similar to that which applied centuries earlier, when only male property owners over the age of 30 and living in towns were able to vote. Its just that right now we find ourselves in the intermediary period where these ideas are still considered overly "radical". As was a single european currency, or the idea of people from eg UK being "allowed" to go and live and work in eg Germany.

looking back over the thread it seems to me that most of those arguing against EU citizens being given the right to vote across borders are themselves from outside the EU. Might just be a coincidence I suppose, but is your antipathy because you feel that the same consideration would not be given to you if the law were changed?

If that is what you think then you are possibly right tho as I have indicated above, I would prefer it if we operated a system where if anyone is resident long enough to pay income tax they should also be allowed to vote. That would accord voting rights to all of you as well as us. Sadly, although idealogically desirable, in the real world I think it is unlikely to happen.

no, i think most are probably americans who fear mexicans getting the vote in the US

or Australians who resent the fact that there are about 300,000 Brits in Australia, who have the right to vote, despite not being Australian citizens, and regularly vote 'No' in the referendums on Australia becoming a republic

surely the Brits who vote in Australia have accepted Australian citizenship and are not just backpackers and short stayers?

Migrants who came to Australia between 1949 and 1984, and who have not taken out Australian citizenship, are entitled to vote in elections and referendums. This affects about 300,000 British citizens.

This may be an anomaly, but it illustrates the difficulties involved in residential voting rights. It's not just about taxation. There will also be issues were there may be a conflict between country of birth and country of residence.

No. I don't feel I am on equal footing with German citizens in terms of who has the right to help determine Germany's future.

just a minute, that means they are people who have lived in Australia for for more than 22 and less than 57 years. I would imagine most have not taken citizenship because Australia insists that citizenship applicants relinquish their previous nationality. They are may be nostalgic about Blighty or have substantial family connections back in the UK. But it does strike me as odd that you refer to them as 'Brits' when they have lived in Oz so long surely they are British Australians?

and how is that. Have you applied for and received German nationality? Or do you believe on principal that all foreigners should be disenfranchised? As OG pointed out, that is the issue of the day in the US at the moment isn't it?

Also, I rather doubt the Germans I know would be of the same mind as you since most, like me, believe in deeper European integration to formalise ourselves as a single European nation.

The are 'Brits' in the sense that they are still British citizens. Some Australians argue that if they are not committed enough to take on Australian citizenship then they should not have the right to vote. This is exactly the same argument I have heard from Germans here, when I complain about paying tax, but not having the right to influence how my tax money is spent. If I want to vote I have to show my 'commitment' and take on German citizenship. There is a belief among many that foreign voters may have a conflict of interest between the country of residence and country of birth.

see, when I moved from Scotland to England there was no issue about me having to become committed bto English politics before I had the right to vote. And yet the differences beween Scottish and English politics are as sharp as those between England and Germany and the institutions are also different. Likewise, Irish, Cypriot and Maltese people moving to England can register to vote there immediately. It seems to me that if we are really comitted to European integration and the free movement of labour that must be backed up by legislation and our democratic institutions.

No, as a German resident of merely 5+ years' standing, I have not been here long enough to apply for citizenship. Residents who are not citizens have not proven themselves to be committed to Germany's future. If I had voting rights, I would probably vote for whomever and whatever would improve my lot in the short term. Whoever promised lower taxes, and forget about infrastructure and pensions, for example. I don't think that would be best for Germany, and although I hope I would be a thoughtful resident and think about the long-term prospects for the German people, I doubt most residents would.


Is this true? Somehow I doubt it, but maybe I know too many Bavarians.

...and a constitution. This whole discussion seems moot in the absence of one.

I'm with you, Joliet Jake.

The EU is not a country, or even a commonwealth. It doesn't make sense to closely compare it to the US or the UK.

As an American living in Germany, do I have an EU residency permit, or a German one? The EU still has a long way to go as a political unit before the changes Bell the Cat proposes can be brought about.

well, while that may be true of Americans living here (a moot point) I certainly do not think that would be remotely true for Austrians, French, Dutch, British, Poles, Czechs etc etc as we all have a shared interest in the wellbeing of Germany and its economic success.


Isn't that the definition of a Republican. i think you would find a happy home with the rightwing of the CDU.


then I think you probably would be a thoughtful resident and vote accordingly. For myself, I believe passionately that German employment laws and tax structure need to be addressed as a matter of urgency as both lead to rising unemployment and strangle German industry and increasingly make it uncompetitive. I believe it would be better for Germany and the Germans that these were reformed as a matter of course and I certainly do not thi nk that the base rates of tax should be cut to benefit me.


I suppose it depends who you associate with but the industries I represent are wholly international on a European basis so maybe it is not surprising that my associates are pro integration.


except, we actually do have a constitution already in the form of a multitude of treaties and commission directives. If we did not then the European institutions would grind to a halt. The Constitutional Document was an attempt to formalise these treaties and directives into a single document that is all. We are no worse off for not having it though it is exasperating that the French and Dutch rejected it for narrow national reasons. I fully belie3ve it will be reintroduced in due course.