Auslander voting rights in Germany

BTC, have you spent the entire weekend on Toytown ranting and raving in various threads? Seriously, there's a world out there, go have a look around.

I hold a European passport. I can cross European borders with out restrictions. I can vote for a parliament at a European level that represents my interests as a European citizen. And over 50% of the legislation passed in Westminster, Paris and Berlin was actually decided jointly at a European level. If that isn't a political union I do not know what is.


immigration is a devolved issue where subsidiarity comes in to play. It was actually the UK's John Major who spearheaded that principle in a rejection of the Shengen agreement. You may be interested that the Shengen agreement enshrines a mutual recognition of residents permits and visas by all the signatories. So you German residency is actually mutually recognised by France, Austria, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Spain, Italy and Portugal. However, I will note that there are moves at foot to resolve this issue and formulate European imigration policy on a more formal basis.

There is NOT an EU constitution and you're fooling yourself if you think "a multitude of treaties and commission directives" is a proper substitution for the formal document. And you wonder why the rules aren't consistent??? On the subject of voting rights, you ARE worse off for not having the formal document. Put the horse before the cart, please.

Too true. I'm out of here.

Bell the Cat, we could not agree more on this opinion.

However, last time I checked, Germany is a sovereign democratic nation whose laws, made by citizens' representatives, hold that only citizens can vote and that foreigners must be resident for 8 years before applying for citizenship.

So let's let the German voters decide the future of their own country, in the democratic spirit.

Conceptually the right to vote (going back to the greeks) IE citizeship has always been linked to the obligation to defend the state if required (though there is always a question of how evenly this is enforced or required).

Paying taxes is not enough to get the right to vote it has to be accompanied by an understanding that the state may want more than just your tax.

look, the UK has no constitution at all. Does that mean it is not a nation state? I think not. But within the laws of Scotland and England there are constitutional laws that act as the framework for a de facto constitution that allows the UK to operate with political institutions, human rights and the rule of law. Likewise, the multitude of treaties and directives at the European level that all states in the EU are signatories to bind us together in much the way a constitution would. The Constitutional Document that was due to be implemented following ratification was an attempt to resolve anomalies and constitutional gaps - it would have nbeen a good thing but it would neither have increased or decreased our degree of poolitical union and its failure to be ratified neither shakes our political union.

I am really frankly astonished that several US people on this thread that have lived here in Europe for several years could be so ignorant of these matters.

eh? I am not demanding anything from the Berlin government. I am raising an issue that should be a matter for debate at the European level. It would mean nothing if it was applied only in Germany, it should be a matter for all signatories to the Treaty of Rome that commits us all to an 'Ever Closer [POLITICAL] Union'

My ignorance knows no bounds, Don Quixote. I'm responding to you, aren't I?

It's all very fcuking simple: You want voting rights in other countries? START WITH AN EU CONSTITUTION!

BTC, I really think you feel a degree of European unity that is not felt by the majority of citizens of European countries. I bet if you went out to the various countries and took a poll saying:

"Do you think a member of any other EU member state should be able to move to your country and immediately have the right to participate fully in the political process in your country, including voting and holding office?"

you would get a resounding NO.

non-citizens should not be allowed to vote. It is ridiculus to think otherwise. If you want to vote apply for citizenship.

give me one good reason why it is ridiculous? Voting rights are only linked to citizenship because that is the way it has always been. If we never moved forward from the status quo only land owning men would be allowed to vote.

I find it rather ridiculous and illogical that the law here in Europe allows me as a European national to vote in city elections, in regional elections and in European elections. I am only barred from national elections. Tell me one good reason for this differentiation!

Simple the EU is not a country. It can dissolve if the member countries decide not to be a part of it anymore. It does not give up sovereignty of the member states. Why should you be able to decide the fate of a country when you are not a citizen? You live here at the permission of these citizens and the laws they chose to allow and these same citizens decided that you can not vote unless you are a citizen. You are being exploited by the German people for your knowledge and you are exploiting them for your salary or cultural affinity to the German people. If you want to vote, apply for citizenship.

true, i'll grant you that but it is trying to become a federation of sorts. Tell me, how did the United States, Canada and Australia start of? Were they always one big country or were they made up of the constituent parts? If the provinces in Canada decided to leave the federation, they could also do so. Wasn't there also a time when a few states in the US ceseded? Nothing is ever guaranteed, especially not the status quo.


actually it does. Every treaty signed by the member nations giving powers to the EUropean Commission or Parliament is a transfer of sovereignty from the members nations to the EU. See for example the transfer of monetary policy to the European central bank with the advent of the Euro. How else would the EU be able to pass Directives binding on all member nations?


So how come I am allowed to decide the fate of the city elections or the state elections? Surely the same logic should apply here?


no i am not. I am here because, firstly i want to live here, and secondly because it is my RIGHT as a European citizen to live and work abywhere within the European Union. I do not need any "permission" or "Genehmigung" to live here. I have as much right to live here in Munich as I would in Abertawe or Aberdeen. I don't think any more or less exploitation is going on here than with any other person, German citizen or not. I pay hurrendous taxes here, so do all the Germans as well. They are being equally exploited.


I tried. The Bavarian authorities refused to recognsie binding Federal Law. How long am I supposed to beg before my rights are accepted?

I don't believe that many people in the European Union would agree with your opinion that the EU is a step into becoming a Unified COuntry and ceding their laws onto this new country. It is stronger than other economic unions such as the WTO or NAFTA, but it is not giving up sovereignty. It is delegating the decisions to another committee or committees. The countries chose to have a single currency, however some chose otherwise, eg. the pound. They had a choice. And this choice can be revoked, with consequences, but nevertheless they can revoke it. That is the meaning of sovereignty, in regards to treaties that member countries sign. Your point of passing directives to the member countries assumes that the countries want to be a part of the EU. If they choose not to, the directives would no longer adhere to them.

I as an American can live in any state in the United States (which is not similar to the EU, since all are under the sovereignty of the Federal Government). However, I lived in Texas for six years. I could not establish residency status there due to my student classification. The EU is predominately an economic Union with stronger requirements to help maintain the long term longevity of the Union.

I meant exploit on a group of reasons which you consider to be advantageous and thus you choos eto live here. Just as the Germans know it is an advantage to open their borders to reduce trade barriers and allow the advanatge of bringing in knowledge workers.

You are in a different group of ausländer then, if you want to be a citizen. I agree if the federal goevrnment allows you the rights and Bavaria is preventing you from receiving those rights, you should be able to be a citizen and have voting rights. But my arguments are reserved for the people who choose to live here and believe that they should be entitled to voting rights.

i think you will find that the majority of French and German politicians believe that the ultimate goal of European intergration is Federal European state. I accept that this is not the majority view held in Britain.

But to say that the EU is only slightly more than an economic union is naive to say the least. I think this shows that your knowledge of how the European Union is constituted and operates is sadly lacking. An economic union would not have functioning execuitve (European Commission) and judicial (European Court) bodies that can bind member states with their decisions.

Any federation, including that of the United States and that of Canada COULD be recinded by the constituent parts IF they so desired, so the EU is no different. Your argument is invalid.

I wish i didn't have to get German citizenship to have equal rights here. European law is supposed to grant European citizens rights equal to those of citizens of the country in which they reside. Unfortunately the key right of voting in national elections is ignored.

You still haven't explained the logic behind being allowed to vote in city, Bundesland and European Elections here in Germany, yet not being allowed to vote in Federal elections.

That is a major fault with the EU and why many people are realising that they are being disenfranchised. The politicians may want it, but the people do not, as was seen in the somewhat recent elections concerning the constitution.

I believe that the it would be naive to think otherwise. The EU is mainly driven by economics and if you think otherwise I believe you are the one who is naive. The other aspects which you cited just reinforce the bond and help to align the interests, which will give it more longevity. If you want a quick read on how binding this is read here

"No one could prevent the UK Parliament from deciding to leave the EU, despite its ratification of the Treaty of Accession and the 1975 referendum (though there would be significant costs)."


You are wrong. I suggest you read up on the US Constitution. So your argument is invalid as well as wrong.

I would not say that this makes sense and would not defend it. I don't think you or I should have the right to vote in any elections here in Germany. However, if the German people voted to allow you to have certain priviledges, then that is their option.

Sadly, this thread does not seem to have generated informed debate. Instead it seems to have uncovered some startling ignorance among the US TT-ers living here in the European Union. I am truly flabbergasted. Maybe they, as one national group, will never have the requisite understanding to participate meaningfully in German politics . . .

Or you yourself will become educated...who knows miracles can happen

You're not really here to make friends are you BTC regardless of how gasted your flabber is?

@Keydeck - One is never friends with the court jester. One is just amused until dinner is served.

"Kind people, gather round and listen. The jongleur is here! I am the jongleur. I leap and pirouette, and make you laugh. I make fun of those in power, and I show you how puffed up and conceited are the bigshots who go around making wars in which we are the ones who get slaughtered. I reveal them for what they are. I pull out the plug, and... pssss... they deflate. Gather round, for now is the time and place that I begin to clown and teach you. I tumble, I sing and I joke! Look how my tongue whirls, almost like a knife. Remember that. But I have not always been... Well, I would like to tell you how it was that I came to be."

Dario Fo

Sorry, what was that?? I was busy eating.

Because they're in the Commonwealth. Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK can vote in UK general elections. It's a historical anomaly - get over it.

Like it!

In other words -sounds like you`re a politician!

brokenm and I are in agreement on every point, for once.

I would also add that BTC's original argument was that he pays taxes here and so ought to be able to vote here. I pay taxes here, too, but I'm American and not EU, so I shouldn't be able to vote here, according to BTC.

His argument only applies to himself and other EU citizens. He likes to say that people who pay taxes ought not to be disenfranchised, but he doesn't want to extend that past citizens of other EU countries.

As I have said, I accept the will of the German people that I can't vote here until and unless I become a citizen.

I just want to point out that BTC's argument regarding "no taxation without representation" is self-serving.

Cinzia, the ultimate goal must be to extend voting rights to all residents, imo. Extending voting rights to EU citizens is the first step. It is not unprecedented.

As has already been pointed out citizens of ANY Commonwealth nation resident in the United Kingdom can vote in elections. So any citizen of these nations can vote:

Antigua and Barbuda • Australia • Bahamas • Bangladesh • Barbados • Belize • Botswana • Brunei • Cameroon • Canada • Cyprus • Dominica • Fiji • The Gambia • Ghana • Grenada • Guyana • India • Jamaica • Kenya • Kiribati • Lesotho • Malawi • Malaysia • Maldives • Malta • Mauritius • Mozambique • Namibia • Nauru • New Zealand • Nigeria • Pakistan • Papua New Guinea • Saint Kitts and Nevis • Saint Lucia • Saint Vincent and the Grenadines • Samoa • Seychelles • Sierra Leone • Singapore • Solomon Islands • South Africa • Sri Lanka • Swaziland • Tanzania • Tonga • Trinidad and Tobago • Tuvalu • Uganda • United Kingdom • Vanuatu • Zambia

This is due to the histotrical ties between Britain and members of the Commonwealth of Nations. Irish citizens were afforded similar rights after Ireland left the Commonwealth in 1949 and became a Republic.

If citizens of so many countries can vote in the United Kingdom due to historical ties, why can't citizens of countries with CURRENT ties vote? This logic applies in to the whole of the EU. All EU citizens should be able to vote in ALL elections in whichever EU country they happen to reside.

Malta and Cyprus are in the Commonwealth, Ireland is not. And apart from Cyprus and Malta no other Commonwealth nation is entitled to vote in UK elections

not true. see above and this:

QUOTE

Ireland used to be in the Commonwealth until 1949. Irish citizens were afforded the same rights as citizens of Commonwealth countries when they withdrew.

For someone who claims to be active in politics, BTC, you are certainly getting a lot of facts wrong. first naturalisation of EU citizens, now this.

I'd gladly forfeit the right to vote if the government forfeited their "right" to tax me.

I don't know, OG. But just because the UK is fcuked up in their voting laws, it doesn't follow that a lot of Brits should go running around messing up everyone else's laws, too.

And you've uncovered another way in which people's rights not to be taxed without representation are curtailed. I, for one, had a part-time job starting at the age of 15, the income from which was taxed. But I wasn't allowed to vote until I was 18! And neither are UK citizens, apparently.

That's it. I'm writing my congressional representative!

fucked up in YOUR opinion. I find those laws rather progressive and an example which many other countries could follow if they so desire. It proves that, in order for a democracy to work, voting rights don't necessarily need to be linked to the citizenship of that country alone.

Sorry, OG. I got the impression that you were opposed to citizens of the former commonwealth etc. being able to vote in the UK. That's why I made that pejorative comment about the UK laws being messed up.

If YOU don't think they're messed up, then who am I to say they are? (I know, your thoughts exactly.)

you are correct Owain, having checked. I'm sorry but it is not s ignificant issue to anyone back in the UK - I knew we gave voting rites to other nationalities living in the UK - just wasn't sure which ones and didn't realise it was so extensive.


From my own point of view, extending voting rights to citizens of other nations has not in any way damaged UK democracy. The sky as not fallen on our heads. If anything it has enlivened it and helped to naturalise those imgrants from these nations that move to the UK. I would like to see those voting rights in the UK extended to French, Swedish, Danish, Finish, Polish, German, Lthuanian, Latvian, estonian, Slovak, Czech, Hungarian, Slovene, Belgian, Dutch, Luxembourgeois, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Greek and Austrians too. All of these nations and the people from them living in the UK have a vested interest and a shared vision with us and I do not see why they should be denied the vote. But given that this is a European Union I would rather this was done through a European Directive and incorporated into the laws of all European nations.

There is actually a precedent for this:

Council Directive 94/80/EC of 19 December 1994 gave the right to all European citizens the right to vote in municipal elections in their country of residence without any minimum period of residence before doing so.

Likewise, Council Directive 93/109/EC of 6 December 1993 gave the right for all EU citizens to vote in European Parliamentary elections wherever they lived in Europe without any minimum period of residence before doing so.

A fully expect that at some point this will be extended to national elections as the free flow of Labour and ever closer union make no sense without it.

What do I see as the obstacles? traditionally the UK and Denmark have been the eurosceptic nations reluctant to integrate and to ask for exemptions from directives. However, while there have been big arguments in these nations about social policy, CAP, the european currency and the constitution -
voting rights have always been relatively uncontroversial. Likewise enlargement of Europe eastwards has always been strongly supported in both nations. It is notable that following accession of the 10 new nations, the UK allowed relatively unrestricted imigration from all the new nations in the firts year.

In contrast, in the core European nations (Bush's 'Old Europe') the reverse has been true with social policy, cap, european currency etc all popular. But eastward enlargement has not been popular. Germany in particular has not allowed imigration unrestricted from the slavic nations. I would guess that some Germans might be thinking about Latvia or Poland when it comes to extending voting rights. And maybe that is where you have come across people being negative on this issue. I am not sure that this is anything other than a transitory accession problem and otherwise, if anything, the Germans are arguably on the most prointegrationary wing of Europe.

Wake me up when it's time to revolt.