Cheers DW
Back on topic, I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 last night, fantastic movie, I can see why its an award winner. Really should be considered compulsory viewing by everyone. Much better than Bowling for Columbine. Hes really done his research this time round.
I would comment more on it, but dont want to give any spoilers...
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Movie: Fahrenheit 9/11
Showing at Munich cinemas July 2004
It's a great movie - about half way through I was sayin to myself "This is great , even as fiction" - he's an excellent dramatatist. The first half especially is outstanding. At times (especially the final scene) I thought it was too emotional but there ya go.
There's a much better documentary on 9/11 with an interview with Naom Chomsky but it's MUCH more hard hitting than this available to those with a decent broadband connection.
The net here is kinda on the blink at work so in case I don't get back to you Kza thanks a lot for ur tip on downloading the experimental client for bittorrent - I had Farenheit in less than 3 hours.
There's a much better documentary on 9/11 with an interview with Naom Chomsky but it's MUCH more hard hitting than this available to those with a decent broadband connection.
The net here is kinda on the blink at work so in case I don't get back to you Kza thanks a lot for ur tip on downloading the experimental client for bittorrent - I had Farenheit in less than 3 hours.
@ DW
Actually what Moore said about being an independent may not have been a lie. He fell out badly with some John Cusack (guy from Grosse Pointe Blank & High Fidelity) as a result of his refusal to support Gore in 2000. This is a well known feud.
Actually what Moore said about being an independent may not have been a lie. He fell out badly with some John Cusack (guy from Grosse Pointe Blank & High Fidelity) as a result of his refusal to support Gore in 2000. This is a well known feud.
Biased yes, emotional yes, fiction no.
Nothing in it disagrees with the 9-11 Comission Report
If anything its less biased than the mainstream media. I consider the mainstream media irresponsible for NOT showing a lot of the things Moore is showing us.
Hmm Noam Chomsky doco you say? I downloaded some of his docos recently but no 9/11 one. Whats it called and where can I leech it?
John Pilger does probably the best of them all.
I also find a lot of the Alex Jones stuff interesting athough a little extreme.
Nothing in it disagrees with the 9-11 Comission Report
If anything its less biased than the mainstream media. I consider the mainstream media irresponsible for NOT showing a lot of the things Moore is showing us.
Hmm Noam Chomsky doco you say? I downloaded some of his docos recently but no 9/11 one. Whats it called and where can I leech it?
John Pilger does probably the best of them all.
I also find a lot of the Alex Jones stuff interesting athough a little extreme.
It's a BBC one - essentially it's one half - hour with Chomsky - there are some fantastic lectures he gives though to John Hopkins university including a question and answer session where he destroys the media coverage on mp3 . I'll speak 2 u later and make sure u have em - just as a taster he makes mention of 2 dramatic events -
1. At exactly the same time as the U.S. / "coalition of the willing" was congratulating itself in acting against the Serbian sponsored ethnic cleansing it was deliberately sponsoring Turkey's ethnic cleansing of the Kurds. The guy lists plenty of details to back this up.
2. The big difference between the protests on Vietnam and Iraq (ver 2.0) were the fact that the Vietnamese versions only occurred long after the war had started whereas the Iraqi one's occurred mostly before.
1. At exactly the same time as the U.S. / "coalition of the willing" was congratulating itself in acting against the Serbian sponsored ethnic cleansing it was deliberately sponsoring Turkey's ethnic cleansing of the Kurds. The guy lists plenty of details to back this up.
2. The big difference between the protests on Vietnam and Iraq (ver 2.0) were the fact that the Vietnamese versions only occurred long after the war had started whereas the Iraqi one's occurred mostly before.
I've just seen this movie, so here's my 2c:
I must confess I am quite disappointed. This "Documentary" is so obviously one-sided, I fear Bush might actually benefit from this rather than take any harm. In fact, I do not comprehend what Moore's ideological position is supposed to be – perhaps it is simply based on the typical hate some radical left wingers have towards the establishment.
None of the information is new, it just reiterates known facts and focuses on a very one-sided view, e.g. shows some Iraqi kids with blown off faces to underline the impression that US troops targeted nothing but women and children in Iraq.
I've seen comments on this movie that point out apparent distortions or even falsehoods. Well, even if all the information was true, I still think Soviet propaganda during the Cold War was of similar if not higher quality than this "Documentary".
Perhaps though I was just expecting too much, though it'd be something like Woodward's/Bernstein's investigation of the Watergate scandal. Well, it's something completely different.
I must confess I am quite disappointed. This "Documentary" is so obviously one-sided, I fear Bush might actually benefit from this rather than take any harm. In fact, I do not comprehend what Moore's ideological position is supposed to be – perhaps it is simply based on the typical hate some radical left wingers have towards the establishment.
None of the information is new, it just reiterates known facts and focuses on a very one-sided view, e.g. shows some Iraqi kids with blown off faces to underline the impression that US troops targeted nothing but women and children in Iraq.
I've seen comments on this movie that point out apparent distortions or even falsehoods. Well, even if all the information was true, I still think Soviet propaganda during the Cold War was of similar if not higher quality than this "Documentary".
Perhaps though I was just expecting too much, though it'd be something like Woodward's/Bernstein's investigation of the Watergate scandal. Well, it's something completely different.
For those of you who have see the movie in Munich - where did you go? Just curious as kino.de isn't listing it as OV (original verison) or even OmU (voice over narration with subtitles). Any places showing it OV? Any suggestions as to where to see it?
@brentlk: Cinema München of course!
He's very good at manipulating the facts to present his image without flat out lying, which is why he has to rely on his fans not being critical thinkers.
His assertions that the Saudis were flown out while all flights were grounded has been smacked down by the 9-11 report, and anyone who believes we went to war in Afghanistan for a gas pipeline is beyond help.
My problem with Michael Moore is that he could do such a good job if he just stuck to making a real documentary, not a commentary, as he is truly a gifted filmmaker... instead he bends everything and misleads the audience to the point where you dont know what the hell you can believe. You can say that the end result is all that matters, that if you walk out of the movie questioning your government his job is done, but thats horseshat. He does such a hatchet job on quotes and statistics that its impossible to believe any of it, even when he's telling the truth.
For the record I was once a big MM fan. Back before Bowling for Combine and before he began to think that the messenger was more important than
the message, and that marketabilty was more important than the truth. I am truly saddened to see what he has made of himself. The ONLY
effective tool a media gadfly has is the truth represented fairly and evenly. Start mixing in such obvious distortions and no matter how noble the cause and you are quickly on the road to irrelevance. Abbie Hoffman anyone?
It's not so much lies and slander, rather it is more half truths and misrepresentations. Example... Moore claims that Bush closed 7 VA hospitals. He did. But what Moore does not tell you is that the closed hospitals were under utilized and there were better facilities for those veterans nearby. Nor does Moore mention that Bush proposed building new VA hospitals in growing areas and more specialty clinics.
Moore has a very extreme view on politics and America. Just like Rush Limbaugh has a very extreme opposite view. Neither looks objectively at the situation; they have agendas. Regardless of the information or facts that they view, they will always skew those facts to support their own ideals. Don’t fall for it.
Michael Moore isn't trying to make America better. His idea of a great America doesn't include about half of America. Same goes for Rush. They are profiting from people who are too lazy to go out and understand what is really going on. They take advantage of what people already believe, and then repeat it to them over and over and over again.
Ignore these idiots.
The funny part of this is that a lot of these Moore fans are the type who complain about people being sheep and believing whatever they are presented, but they then turn around do the same thing. Amazing.
His assertions that the Saudis were flown out while all flights were grounded has been smacked down by the 9-11 report, and anyone who believes we went to war in Afghanistan for a gas pipeline is beyond help.
My problem with Michael Moore is that he could do such a good job if he just stuck to making a real documentary, not a commentary, as he is truly a gifted filmmaker... instead he bends everything and misleads the audience to the point where you dont know what the hell you can believe. You can say that the end result is all that matters, that if you walk out of the movie questioning your government his job is done, but thats horseshat. He does such a hatchet job on quotes and statistics that its impossible to believe any of it, even when he's telling the truth.
For the record I was once a big MM fan. Back before Bowling for Combine and before he began to think that the messenger was more important than
the message, and that marketabilty was more important than the truth. I am truly saddened to see what he has made of himself. The ONLY
effective tool a media gadfly has is the truth represented fairly and evenly. Start mixing in such obvious distortions and no matter how noble the cause and you are quickly on the road to irrelevance. Abbie Hoffman anyone?
It's not so much lies and slander, rather it is more half truths and misrepresentations. Example... Moore claims that Bush closed 7 VA hospitals. He did. But what Moore does not tell you is that the closed hospitals were under utilized and there were better facilities for those veterans nearby. Nor does Moore mention that Bush proposed building new VA hospitals in growing areas and more specialty clinics.
Moore has a very extreme view on politics and America. Just like Rush Limbaugh has a very extreme opposite view. Neither looks objectively at the situation; they have agendas. Regardless of the information or facts that they view, they will always skew those facts to support their own ideals. Don’t fall for it.
Michael Moore isn't trying to make America better. His idea of a great America doesn't include about half of America. Same goes for Rush. They are profiting from people who are too lazy to go out and understand what is really going on. They take advantage of what people already believe, and then repeat it to them over and over and over again.
Ignore these idiots.
The funny part of this is that a lot of these Moore fans are the type who complain about people being sheep and believing whatever they are presented, but they then turn around do the same thing. Amazing.
DW:
You kno I think you're a thinking American but to suggest that America was not prepared to go to war in Afgnaistan over a pipeline is only half the story: Since 84 the CIA was arming the Mujaheddin rebels/terrorists in an attempt to overthrow the Soviets , you might remember the downing of the stealth bomber using U.S. stinger missiles as being a rather embarassing reminder of this event. Even General Sir Michael Rose commented that the U.S. was in danger of starting WW3 because of interference in the region during the 80's.
http://members.localnet.com/~jeflan/jfafghanpipe.htm
Fair enough if America goes to war in Sudan then I'm 100% behind em (and they can even take oil-rich Nigeria while they're at it) but it's long involvement in Afghanistan and the surrounding region is not exactly tinged with honourable intentions.
You kno I think you're a thinking American but to suggest that America was not prepared to go to war in Afgnaistan over a pipeline is only half the story: Since 84 the CIA was arming the Mujaheddin rebels/terrorists in an attempt to overthrow the Soviets , you might remember the downing of the stealth bomber using U.S. stinger missiles as being a rather embarassing reminder of this event. Even General Sir Michael Rose commented that the U.S. was in danger of starting WW3 because of interference in the region during the 80's.
http://members.localnet.com/~jeflan/jfafghanpipe.htm
Fair enough if America goes to war in Sudan then I'm 100% behind em (and they can even take oil-rich Nigeria while they're at it) but it's long involvement in Afghanistan and the surrounding region is not exactly tinged with honourable intentions.
I saw this at the weekend and I have to say I thought it was pretty tame. I didn't think there was anything new in this.
Again everyone should read The Best Democracy Money can Buy by Greg Palast. Much more damning and with all the evidence to back it up.
The most eye-opening thing I found in Farhenheit 9/11 was the attitudes of the young US soldiers. My God these kids are so clueless and totally ignorant of what they were getting themselves into.
Again everyone should read The Best Democracy Money can Buy by Greg Palast. Much more damning and with all the evidence to back it up.
The most eye-opening thing I found in Farhenheit 9/11 was the attitudes of the young US soldiers. My God these kids are so clueless and totally ignorant of what they were getting themselves into.
I'm with you Meckle. I saw the film a couple weeks ago, and the only new thing in it was the name on the document. Everything else is old news.
I saw it last Thursday and I have to agree also with the last 2 post, mostly old news. I was expecting a "Watergate" type investigation and I am quite disappointed with MM's offering...
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