Trouble using my UK debit card in Germany

Dear all,
10 minutes ago (i.e after 8 in the evening) I received an angry phone call from a garage where I had some new tyres fitted earlier today and paid with my UK debit card.
My card has the Maestro-sign on it and the garage had this sign displayed on their window, so I assumed it was worth a try.
Now they rang me because they just realized the booking did not go through their system and are indeirectly accusing me of fraud.
Just checked my bank account balance online - there is still plenty of money in it.
Now I know that most German shops do not accept credit cards and those who accept some type of plastic usually accept "eurocheque-cards" (EC). As far as I know the EC-system has been replaced by the international Maestro-system.
Why is it they never ever accept British cards? My card has been rejected so many times in Germany I lost count. Shops usually insist they only accept German EC-cards and despite displaying the Maestro-Sign would not accept foreign cards.
Has anybody else made this experience? Is there any way out?
Any advice kindly appreciated...

I know its really annoying but they do seem to only accept EC cards despite displaying the maestro symbol. Haven't got to the bottom of that one yet sorry. Did the man put the transaction through correctly? Ask him why they display a Maestro symbol if the obviously can't process transactions using cards with a Maestro symbol. If all else fails just plead Foreign-ness and withdraw the cash from your English Maestro card at the atm and go pay him. Strangely there are no problems using a Maestro card in atms that display the sign!

Has your card got a chip? I tried to use my German debit card (EC card without a chip) in London and it did the same thing in reverse but it did reject the transaction while I was still in the shop. I do think however that the German system is still rather backwards. It is predominantly a cash based society meaning they don't readily use credit cards or cheques.

I guess the best thing to do is to try and get an EC card if you don't already have one and transfer money from the UK into the account to use here. Otherwise withdraw from the atms which also sucks as you have to pay for the withdrawal (though Barclays and Deutsche Bank have a no charge withdrawal agreement - maybe your bank has one with another German bank?).

That's all I can think of to suggest. I know it sucks! Good luck!

Have to agree with Elphaba. Its a really old-fashioned system. Get a German bank account and an EC card. A lot of people use the EC card here.

I too have had my English cards refused here and my German card refused in the UK. Bit embarrassing at times.

It really surprises me how many places don't take credit cards.

I have never had any problems with my card in the UK !!
My german VISA seems to be accepted everywhere - But I thought that was the whole point of having a VISA card.
But I mus agree. Get a german bank account and use the EC card. much easier !!

The problem is probably more to do with the limits applied to your individual card. The provider can define how much you can spend per transaction, as well as daily, and weekly limits, and whether you have to use your PIN or not, and also regional limits.

Many retail service providers here use the card details to charge your account by direct debit, which is okay with a german account, or those from most Euro countries, but can be a problem with bank accounts in non-Euro countries.

Talk to your bank and get them to set the card details accordingly and you shouldn't have so many problems. The usage limits applied to the cards are primarly for your safety and the issue with using british Meastro cards lies less with the German and more with the British banks -- they prefer you to use your credit card abroad, probably because they can charge more for that.

Hi,

I work in EC and Credit Card processing and am in one respect puzzled by your problem, but in another respect, not so surprised.

Your transaction is likely being declined for one of the following reasons:

1) The system load is heavy and your transaction is "timing out". Look for a code at the bottom of the failed transaction slip for a "091" or "096" ( may or may not have the leading zero and may or may not have the acronym "RC" - response code ). German peak times are quite "peaky" due to the short business hours and the fact that Germans do everything at the same time. A German card often will be authorized by another German bank because they have an agreement to do so. Try the transaction more than once and try to perform the transactions outside of the scheduled German time. 19:30 - 20:00 is a better time than the hours before.

2) The link to your bank may be down. Again the German bank connected to the terminal has no agreement to authorize the transaction on your UK bank's behalf. You will also find a "091" or "096" code on the transaction slip in this case.

3) There could be a bug in the software of the bank that owns the terminal or one of the other German intermediate parties in the transaction. Look for a code of "030" on the slip. In this case you can't do anything since it may take the offending party in the transaction several months to fix the problem ( typical German customer service attitude ).

4) The problem could be at your bank in the UK. They have configured your card with a set of limits. Your limit for international POS transactions may be low or zero and a phone call to your bank can change this for you. If they have set you up for international ATM transactions, they have not necessarily set you up for International POS. Look for a code of "013" at the bottom of the transaction slip.

As for your problem with the shop-keeper and his typical German threat, tell him to go to hell when he gets agressive with you since he ( or whoever else took your payment ) should have noticed the failed transaction at the time of your payment. He released the car to you, beleiving the payment went through and the verification of the transaction's success is his responsibility. Tell him to just go ahead and call the police.

He wouldn't if he only used the card details to direct debit the account. Not all retailers here use online POS charging, particularly garages like to do direct debit.

If the debit failed, then the usual german system kicks into action, just as if you had been sent a bill. The retailer has to send you a demand and give you a definite date by when you have to have paid, before he can take any other action.

When I first came to Germany my greatest problem was realising that 200 Euros was my daily card limit. In England I was used to drawing 200 quid, and converting this to 300 Euros was taken aback when the machine said, ..." Card invalid."... Had it said, " amount over limit " I would have twigged immediately. I had to spend frustrating hours on the phone to my Lloyds / TSB bank, and to Visa, before THEY realised that the problem was that the limit was 200 Euros, and not 200 pounds, and THEY run the bloody show.!!!
Needless to say, I now have a Sparkasse card , and no further problems.
Incidentally, anyone suffering from the 200 Euro Visa limit ... You can go to Citybank, and with your Passport, withdraw ANY amount you wish, providing you are good for it of course.. Cheers,

Raffles.

The German EC card is actually two systems, one is a direct debit, straight out of you bank account, thats the PIN code system. The other is like a credit card in which you sign for it and it takes a few days to come out of your account. I found that out after having my card declined, or more correctly not accepted, several times, I finally asked the bank and they issued a new card. Next time you see a EC card take a look at it and you notice the PIN pad and a Pen signing. Most cards these days are issued with both.

The signature system is more risky for a retailer as it can be declined several days latter, as has happened to me when the account was a bit stretched. Usually they take the money out a few weeks latter automatically. Toom Bauhaus does 1st transaction by signature and second one by PIN code.

I did have my MC refuse payment once, the machine hung, gave the signature part but not the receipt, well a week or so latter we got an angry call and had to transfer the money to their account.

it actually does not surprise me so much, because it's a risk for the shops.
And actually I am glad that our system is like it is and not like in USA for example, where you have to go in depts first, to be worth getting a CC card

As far as I know, Germany has one of the most modern banking systems by the way, even if it might not be the most comfortable one for you

old-fashioned v modern is a funny thing. The Germans in England find it terribly old-fashioned that you have to write out cheques all over the place instead of just being able to do an 'ueberweisung'.

they are having the same problems regarding ec- & maestro cards though:
http://www.deutsche-in-london.net/forum/vi...pic.php?p=14270

Don't think I have ever written a cheque in my life. Do people in the UK really still use them? I thought even there they were dead.

Agree. I too find it quaint that the english still write out these things called cheques, then hand them to the person, who then takes it and then hands it in to his/her bank, who then transfers the money from the other persons bank... very primitive. I thought cheques went out with quill pens and trilby hats. I think cheques must have gone out of use in Germany at least 15-20 years ago. Certainly in all the time Ive lived here Ive hardly ever seen one. I dont even have any cheques with my bank account. Dont need them either. Only thing is when you buy something from someone in UK via Ebay and they insist on being sent a cheque... Then simple things become complicated.

I respect your opinion ( my guess is you are German? ).

I have been working in Banking IT in Frankfurt now for 6 years. It never fails to amaze me how antiquated German banking is ( particularily IT-wise ) in comparison to the systems I worked on in North America.

My client has plans to implement several features into the system ( variable length PINS, PINS the customer can change on the own, etc. ) that have been integrated into North American card processing more than 10 years. When I speak to my client about these features, they really believe they are cutting edge and are amazed at the potential to have them.

Modern is simply not a word that is in my vocabulary when describing German banking / German banking IT. But it does keep my cashflow going!

One thing I find primitive and annoying, as well as foolish, with german banks is how they seem to issue the same account number more than once! I had this problem a few times with Deutsche Bank, my account number exists for more than one account at Deutsche Bank!!
Very foolish, I couldnt believe it. As a result they messed up Überweisungen a number of times. I went in to the branch to sort it out, and told them it was not advisable to issue the same account number more than once. It is advisable to keep them unique. Amazing that the customers have to teach the banks Banking Basics!

NA banking may be modern in some respects, but retail banking is in the dark ages.

Bank to bank transfers? What's that? I recently set up an account to pay off my student loans. It took 90 days for them to establish the connection between the banks to deduct a simple amount from my account every month. That is a transaction that takes, oh, about 15 seconds to establish in Germany.

When I asked my bank about wiring money from my German account they looked at me as if I'd just parked my spaceship out front and had two antennae sticking out of my head. And forget about getting them to send my statements to a foreign address. I'm still waiting to receive the debit card and check book (!!!) they supposedly sent me three months ago.

Yea, being able to change your pin is nice, but I'd be happier just to be able to transfer money from one account to another easily.

I find that my UK and German banks offer similar features - people in both countries routinely use direct debit and standing orders to pay bills and either EC or debit cards in shops. The major snags with payment systems is that in both countries, the systems work on a national basis but don't work (well) internationally, despite advertising claiming the contrary. (Note that some firms won't accept payments on EC cards issued by foreign banks)

The reason why cheques do still exist is that identity theft and related fraud is rife and most people in the UK would be not be happy to hand over details of their bank account to someone in order to receive a payment. Another useful feature of a cheque is that it prevents the annual renewal scam so loved by German companies. If you send a cheque for one year of something, the company concerned can't just debit money from your account for at the end of the year (whilst claiming to have not received any cancellation). I rarely used cheques in the UK though - a cheque book would last me about 5 years when I lived there.

Interesting you should say that because everytime you write a cheque you are giving the receipient your account name, the sort code and the account number. Those who do not like to give out their account details to receive money, should in theory not write cheques out either! But I can guarantee that most would do without even thinking twice about it...

rgds
19k

PS. BTW. Let me introduce myself - I have been living in O'Reilly's in Frankfurt for 2 months (well not literally; it's just I am always there!) and I am back home to blighty after this weekend. However, I want to return to live in Frankfurt for a year or two. Just need to persaude my company to send me and the German office to accept me!

By far, the best way is as already mentioned ...

take your passport to Sparkassa, open an account. Job done. 750euro daily limit

edit: Oh and Cheques ARE being fazed out ... by 2010 iirc. Also, the only place I have ever had trouble with my Natwest Switch (Maestro) was Cuba, everywhere else - most of East and West Europe, the US of A and Africa (including Mozambique!) - it worked fine.

Me bets that your client is not the Deutsche Bank or the Dresdner... these banks have been offering changeable PIN's for quite some time now.

The variable length PIN would be a good thing though, the standard 4 digits they have here is just not secure enough.


I actually think they have a logical system there. You have a core account number, with different 2-digit endings for each type of acount. In that way you can memorise your account number, and memorise the end codes for each type of account.

The core account number 1 111 111

1 111 111 00 is for your current account,
1 111 111 60 for your savings account
1 111 111 90 for your money market depot thingy, and so on.

Much better than constantly looking for your different details and numbers in some drawer or other at home

Cheques were in use in Germany until four years ago, I still have some blank ones. Maybe I´ll keep them a few years and sell them on eBay as antiques.

I got a cheque from my car insurance when I downgraded my car - the other half had never seen a cheque in Germany before that, mind, but the bank didn't look that strangely at it when I went to pay it in.

If they don't have checks in Germany, what do lottery winners pose with?

good question an ueberweisungsslip?
Have you noticed the difference between the English and German versions of "who wants to be a millionaire?"?
Chris Tarrant in the English version constantly writes out cheques and then takes them back ("we don't want to give you that"), while there are no cheques at all in the German version.

Regarding Maestro payments. I remember when working in the hotel, our credit card machine was changed to take Maestro cards. This however only covered German ones. I had to fill out a load of forms to have the same machine then accept international Maestro cards...

The reason why cheques do still exist is that identity theft and related fraud is rife and most people in the UK would be not be happy to hand over details of their bankare not account to someone in order to receive a payment.

But cheques are not safe in this respect. On a cheque you can find account name, account number & sort code and a signature.

One great thing about the EC (Debit Card) is you can get foreign currency at bank rates, no more getting ripped off for exchanging cash at the bank. When I go home to Canada I don't even bother with exchanging money just pop my EC card into the nearest banking machine and voilà out comes cold hard over sized bills.

Banks in Canada and the US like cheques because of the associated fees (15-20 bucks a hit)involved when you don't have enough money to cover it. German banks on the other hand charge nothing when a direct debit is sent back and only a euro or two on the other end.

I was in Vancouver just after Christmas and got a rate using my Sparkasse EC card that was better than the published rate in the newspaper even after all the fees had been charged. Fantastic.

This is quite true but whilst folk in the UK seem happy to hand over a cheque when making a payment, they tend to get quite weird if you ask them for their bank details in order to give them a payment. I know it doesn't really make sense. I think cheque fraud is relatively unusual now - card duplication is quite common though.

But Card Duplication has nothing to do with your bank account details? At most, on your card is the sort code and your name. There is no account number, and the card number (16 digit one) is unrelated.

It intrigues me as to why people are quite happily sticking their card details into a website where they may or may not know the site has xbit security encryption, yet they won't give out their bank account details?!

In the UK, the only use an account number, sort code and name has to anyone is to give money; with the exception of direct debits - but you need to be registered to do that and your home address has to be known aswell.

Ah well!

19k

My account number is on my card. So is my sig. on the back (otherwise it's not valid). Come to think of it, all the info that would be on a check is on my card.

Card duplication is achieved by swiping your card somewhere - in a shop or restaurant or maybe via a device attached to the front of an ATM. With the ATM version, they usually fit a small camera to record your PIN as well.

http://www.ncis.co.uk/press/cashmachinesecurity.asp

The other famous one was the second hand ATM that someone purchased, reprogrammed an installed in a shopping centre (with no money). Everyone who tried to use it had their card details and PIN recorded and was told the was no money left. At the end of the weekend, the ATM was removed and the details of the cards retrieved. Police estimated that the gang concerned had acquired details of several thousand cards and that they know of about 250,000 pounds of fraudulent withdrawals but there could be more that they didn't know about.