Health Insurance

At the moment I have private medical insurance through AXA which is, I think, exorbitantly expensive at €546 per month... although, admittedly, my employer pays half. I've been told that unless my job or my contract changes, I'm stuck with this insurance... is this true? Is there a better way to get health cover... I still have to pay a large excess each year, especially for dental treatment.

what is wrong with that? the price is ok if you are only paying half.

i am in a BKK and have no clue about the prices of private ones.
How good is your german?
This site says, you can change within 3 months from a private one to another private one after the "Mindestvertragsdauer".

http://private-krankenversicherung.e-pkv.d...tails.asp?ID=65

looks about the the standard rate to me, I'm paying about the same.

I pay more than that and I am in the government scheme

I might have the option to change to private in April but I am not sure I want to!

I think you can change to another company if you cancel the policy usually a cancellation period of three months. I think whoever told you that might have been trying to say that you no longer have the chance to go into the government scheme since you have been private??

i have been told that if you go private you cant change back???
I have just gone freiwillig, whatever that means... i know it is not private as that would become more expensive as i have two kids on mine for the same as you pay cruiser.

I am with DKV and it is 330 pm, of which I pay half. I am covered for everything and never had any problems.

I also know that Alliance have a plan based in Ireland (but accepted in Germany) which is about 200 pm, of which your employer has to pay half. But I believe that if you wish to stay in Germany long term, it's best not to use this one.

read that site bully (I know your german is good enough)

under some circumstances you can go back

huh? usually freiwillig means, you can pay for the insurance "freiwillig" while you aree not employed since you quit your job and dont want to register "arbeitslos".

well i am working and i am above the something grenze, so i earn too much

You can always get better deals on private health care. I used an excellent broker-I pay less on my private insurance than what I used to by on the government insurance and my insurance is a million times better! I never want to see the government one again!!! It is real rip off...I am happy to give you the details of my broker-he struck me as rather honest as he did not not propose the more expensive deals but rather the most suitable.

hmmm, guess you are private then
or you pay more (freiwillig) than you have to, to have a better coverage?

then there is a "must", that they wont take you in "gesetzliche", if you earn to much. So you have to go private.

hmmm...just freiwillig? no clue what you mean

exactly ... freiwillig is if you earn more than the stipulated amount and then still stay in the public system. why anyone would do that I'll never know. you may less upfront but you have to fork out all along the way for stuff on the "not-covered" list ... and that list ain't getting shorter!!

no i am not Private and i pay the same as last month, just changed this month. The office done it for me, today was the first i knew. On my wage chit it now shows me getting money from my firm and having double that taken off to pay the krankenkasse. Where before it was just my half being deducted. It actually say freiwillig krankenkasse...

but Luke as i said before i have my family covered with me, if i go private i have to insure them all separate, so i would be paying treble what i am now.

I guess you're right BB... I'm having trouble getting used to the idea of high taxation AND the need for health insurance, even after having lived here for more than a year.

hmmmm (Bahnhof?)

As far as I know you can go back on the government insurance. I received a letter yesterday in which they said if I want to join them again any time they are happy to take me back...NO THANK YOU!!

dont know what you mean? but is it this

last months wage slip had somethin like this on it:

KV anteil einbehalten 250,00- (which means 250,00 was deducted from my wages as Krankenkasse)

this month it says
freiwillig KV-AG Anteil 250,00 (250 euros given to me ArbeitGeber anteil)
freiwillig KV abgeführt 500,00- (deducted 500 euros for the krankenkasse)

to keep identities secret figures have been changed

I don't want the details of your broker, but do you have some examples? I am actually quite ok with my BKK as far as I needed them. Ok the 10 euros extra if you go to doctor every 3 months, but at least I don't get huge bills if I had a surgery etc.?

Freiwillig:- if you earn below a certain rate (Beitragsbemessungsgrenze) you must be insured with one of the gesetzliche Krankenkassen. if you earn above the grenze you have the choice to go private. If you decide to stay with the gesetzliche, then you are freiwillig.

If you are young, fit and single the private insurance schemes will generally be much cheaper. If you are a woman thinking of starting a family think carefully. A married woman with gesetzliche insurance, who quits work to raise kids will be automatically insured with her husband, if he is also with a public scheme, as will the kids. A woman, who is privately insured must continue paying the premiums to her private insurance company (including the half that her employer used to pay) - and these premiums will start to rise rapidly.

Bahnhof? Means I have no clue what you mean Bully. Comes from the american soldiers after ww2

Well I believe you of course, I just dont have a clue :$

Silly Point exactly, i was told if i go private it will cost me an arm and a leg at my age

@Hannah i know what Bahnhof means just wanted to know what you dont know then i can tell you what i know that you dont know the we will all know what i know and you dont know. think i will go home now

I'm not sure under exactly what conditions you can go back from being privately insured to the "gesetzliche", however one think I don know, once you're over a certain age (I, believe 55, but it might be 50) unless you have been insured with the "gesetzliche" for 30 out of the last 60 months, there is no way back in - not even if you're unemployed! I know, when I was unemployed for three months a couple of years back I tried to get into the lokal BKK. They would have loved to have me, the more customers the better, but they couldn't find any loopholes to get me in.

That said, the price sounds pretty normal, I'm paying about the same.

me too going home now (mein Kopf qualmt)

cu tomorrow

Hannah I can only speak about my own experience, but I was livid after having gone to the dr once in a year and to the dentist once that I had to pay 50 euros of a 80 euros dental bill after I had paid in thousands over that year. I have better insurance now, it costs me less per month and I all of a sudden I even get preferential treatment.

cu Hannah

What happens then when you are unemployed and have a private krankenversicherung? Do the Arbeitsamt pay all of it for you or what?
surely you cant afford to pay 400 Euros a month out of your unemployment benefit just for the health insurance!

I just checked my blinking payslip

488 gross
206 Company paid

using a calculator i get 282, that pays for wifey and two kiddies, have to pay the 10 euro doo-dah each time but nothing else.

Sevice is far better than the NHS mind you so is some remote parts of Angola.

I got no complaints, apart from the odd bit of jaw surgery without a general which hurt like crap.

mustn't grumble.

exactly Rustic Cockney, what i pay is for me and two kids. If i went private then i would have to pay for them extra..

The Arbeitsamt pay the equivalent of the employer's contribution up to the "Bemessungsgrenze", this worked out to not quite half in my case. If you can't afford to pay the remaining 200 - 300€, that's your problem! It's no accident that the number of people in Germany having no health insurance at all is in the millions and rising steadily.

If you become unemployed and register as 'arbeitslos' you will be allowed to switch from private to gesetzlich.
Similarly if your salary falls below the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze you can switch back.

you will not be able to take advantage of being familienversichert, which is what I was referring to in my previous post (although there are other loopholes you can use for this)

It's complicated and the government are getting set to start tinkering with it again!

As I said in my original post, this only applies up to a certain age, after that you're screwed!

Actually Luke, more people stay in the public system than you think.

Private insurance does offer more for your euro, but only if the circumstances are right.

With public insurance, you are probably better off when:

You become unemployed.
You decide to start a family.

With private insurance you are phucked when either of the above happens. Two colleagues of mine who are privately insured now have the pleasure of forking out premiums for themselves, their wives, and each individual child they have (one has two children, the other has three). If they were to suddenly become unemployed... ouch that will be a very hard to cure pain. With public insurance, the whole family is covered on your single payment. Relieves the pressure somewhat when there is suddenly only one breadwinner in the family. Unemployment? Then your insurance will be covered for you and the family by the government.

Also - with private insurance when you choose one, you are more or less stuck with them for life. I know you can freely change sides whenever you want, but the older you get... the higher the quotations from the other companies This can be harsh, especially if your insurance company decides to impose a hefty increase in monthly premiums.

For short term insurance, go private.
For long term, think good and hard.

Bob

my word bob, my words.

Only if you're too old.

If you're under the critical age, 50 or 55 whichever it is, then if you become unemployed you can change into the "gesetzliche" without any problems - unless they've changed the rules again without me noticing!

Well I am aware of one rule that makes a change impossible.

Say, for example, you earn enough to go private.
You do that, and then soon afterwards the German government decide to up the limit you need to reach.
Suddenly you find your salary lies under the limit again, and by law you should change back to the public bodies.
However, there is a declaration you can sign stating you never wish to return to the public system ever again, no matter what the circumstance.

If you sign that, and then become unemployed... oh dear :$

Its their little way of showing their middle finger to you for abandoning them... I am sure they have other little anti comeback rules hidden somewhere in the system

EUR 500+ sounds awfully expensive to me. I use Landeskrankenhilfe (LKH). I pay EUR 360 / month of which the company refunds a bit more than 50%.

I was not in doubt about chosing private when I moved here (single, no kids, young, healthy) since I don't plan to spend the rest of my life in Germany. I think the choice depends very much on your personal circumstances. If you (like my boss) have four children, then the public system is a bargain

Henrik

Your monthly payment depends largely on your age at the time that you join an insurance scheme. I was about 45 when I joined mine, which is why my insurance is relatively expensive. I would expect that if you join at age 30 then the premium would be substantially less and probably around hebo's 360€.

This is also the reason why it isn't practical to change private insurers after (say) ten years or so. When you move to the new insurer they will rate you at the age you are when you apply and it will almost always be more expensive.

That is exactly why you need to go private. The public system simply can't work. Too many people taking out more than they put in. The end result is that you get fewer and fewer benefits.

You might as well as go private because the current system will be changed soon. Highly likely that everyone will have to pay a very basic public health insurance and then top it up with a private Zusatzversicherung if they so wish. You may as well reap the benefits of full private insurance while you can.

And if it all goes pear shaped you can always go back to UK and rely on NHS.

Thats also assuming you can "rely" on the NHS! I wouldnt rely too heavily on it!

Luke, forgive me if I am wrong but I pay 250euro a month for public health insurance, so does Mrs Maisflocke, so do the neighbours, and my friends, and my colleagues (well I don't know exactly how much they pay, but I reckon its about the same). From all these people, I dont know anyone who actually manages to get more out than what they pay in. They dont even get near the amount. Not even those with kids!

If you ask me, the only people who benifit from our premiums are the Doctors and other medical professionals who flaunt their wealth with Porsches, Mercedes, and other material items of luxury.

We pay in, they take out. They do that with the private insurance companies too...

I spoke to a salesman for a private insurance company (about getting health insurance) and he told me that I should pay €75 and go for a medical examination to one of the doctors of a particular practice. He said that if I did this I'd be able to make medical and dental appointments immediately (for within a day or so) but that if I didn't do this, I could wait up to 3 months for a doctor's appointment and 8 months for a dental appointment. Does this sound a bit dodgy or is this standard practice (it sounds a bit strange to me - I miss the relative simplicity of the NHS)?

The doctors receive a pittance from the public insurers. They fund all their medical equipment and Porsches (or Porschen) from private patients - that's why the privately insured are treated like Gods. Now if you bear in mind that the private insurance premiums are lower than those for the public insurance, it gives you an idea at how inefficient the public system is. All those Krankenkassevorstandsmitglieder need to be generously compensated too, you know.

@imireach: sounds extremely dodgy. never heard of that before. The system here couldn't be simpler. Get privately insured, go to any doctor you wish in the whole of the EU, jump to the front of any waiting list, and sit the "first class" waiting room with posh sofas and TVs.

OK, you may find it simple, Badboy, but could you explain to me why BEK have done their best to put me off going with them? First, my application seems to have disappeared from their computer records. I then attempted to apply again, waited for ages for a response, and the was told the following in a letter:

"Zur Absicherung des Kranken- und Pflegeversicherungs haben Sie sich für eine private Krankenversicherung entschlossen. Eine Mitgliedschafdt bei der BARMER scheidet daher aus."

Please correct me if I'm wrong but they seem to be telling me that I've already decided to go with a private insurance company. I haven't a clue what they're on about (nor has anyone else I've asked) but at the time I received this letter they were the only insurance company I had had any contact with.

I have been given contradictory advice by various Germans concerning insurance (some say I should go private, others say I should go public). I seem to be paying a fair old whack of my salary for Rentenversicherung and Arbeitslosenversicherung but I'm not covered for any medical.

In Ireland or the UK, you pay your NHS and that's you. Yeah, you may have to wait a while for an appointment but you know you're covered for any emergency.

I don't find the insurance system here simple at all.

Go to HUK Coburg. They regularly get very good ratings and have been more than fair to me. I pay about €220 a month. Joined when I was 30, and have an excess of €150 a year.

Didn't read the whole post so forgive me if this has been already said.

Private insurance is great, if you get into it young (20 - early 30), but becomes increasingly more expensive the older you get.

Public health care is fairly expensive now I pay at least 500 per month (in my 40s) and have a dependant (hubby). The company pays the same - so this costs us about 1000 all told.

Private, so I am told is more expensive than public (at my age) should I go into now.

We were unemployed and they (public) charged us (in 2001) 250 Euros per month! (charge you half)

Hope this helps!

Thanks, I'll keep them in mind (though it's possible I may be too old to benefit from private insurance if what Tim Horton's Lady says applies to me).

Just to give you a comparison figure, I was about 45 when I went into the private system and I'm now paying ~ 520 € 15 years later, with a 1200 € excess.

This is standard practice.

Salesmen will always lie through their teeth to get commision.

Never trust a salesperson. You are not their friend, you are simply their potential ATM.

[quote]Salesmen will always lie through their teeth to get commision.

Never trust a salesperson. You are not their friend, you are simply their potential ATM.[quote]

Very true. A great lesson in life - never sign anything that you do not 100% understand yourself

(apologies to all sales people reading this...)
If sales people were the cleverest people in the world they would also be the richest and thus not need to work. They are not. They are generally smooth tongued wide boys who think they can charm people into buying things and get fat off the commissions.

Do not rely on general blanket assurances from a sales person that something will happen - relying on them will only lead you to being in a shitty situation 6 months down the line when you want to make a claim on your insurance / expect a return on your investment / etc etc