German as the only language allowed in school playgrounds

Its all getting a bit Daily Mail letters page on here . I think its a good idea to encourage kids to speak German, yes even in the playground. It helps their language no end. It probably happens by default in most schools as Auslanders are in the tiny minority anyway. Where there are lots of Auslanderkinder then it may need more encouragement. Seems sensible to me. Too many British people come to Germany and make little or no effort at integration. I'm British and spent 6 years there, we put our daughter into German Kindergarten and Grundschule.

i gather you dont live here anymore

During the week I work in Germany but my child goes to school in Belgium now, can I ask what that has to do with anything ?

I don't think ANYONE is arguing it's not a good idea to speak German:

- in the classroom
- in the playground
- at any and all other opportunities

Similarly in the UK, we'd expect people to try to learn English. That said, if you live in any of the UK's big cities you'll be no stranger to government/local authority forms being available (at least) in several Asian languages as well as in English.

The thing is, you cannot FORCE people to learn a language. When you try to force someone to do it they'll only react by feeling victimised and separate themselves even more from the host country.

The money (teachers time) would be better spent on providing facilities for accelerated language learning instead of trying simply to ban other languages from being spoken. As well as not being very democratic it will also be a problem to try to enforce. How will kids who speak a sentence in a non-German language be stopped from doing so? Will they be punished? How will that help to integrate them?

No we are not saying that but to impose it in the playground is stupid, that i am against.

They will probably employ these stupid security guys to run around in a uniform with a beret on, who think they are cool and tough.

Or maybe its just as it sounds, if you look at it without prejudice that they will try and encourage the kids to speak German all the time when they are at school to help improve their German. If they don't employee security guards to stop them fighting they are hardly likely to do it for language ...never let the facts get in the way of a good headline I suppose...

Why anyone would be against their kids being encouraged to improve their language and integrate better is beyond me . Imagine if this scenario was reversed in the UK, I can see all the letters now. I see the 'Fog in the Channel, Europe Cut Off' mentality still exists...

I am not agains kids being taught German over here but to impose it in the playground is pathetic. Just think of a 7 year old that has just moved to Germany. Shy, scared and then being forced to speak German that he/she cant anyway... Integrating is not only speaking the language. The language will come with time but not by force.

I dont think that any kids in the UK are forced to speak english.

sorry missed this, it was just the way you said you this
just sounded like you were not in Germany any more.

Forcing immigrant kids to learn the language, god forbid. Could you imagine that rule being imposed back in Blightey, actually expecting the "economic migrants", to fill in Social Security forms that aint written in sandskrit!!!

I saw on the BBC news the other night, the plight of this poor woman and her locusts (who dont even live in a shoe). She's a FAILED!!! asylum seeker from the Congo, and she's now challenging both her deportation and the Goverment stopping her benefit money. Her kids were all complaining that they had no money for food...all sat there in the front room watching a TV screen that wouldn't of been out of place in the local Multiplex cinema! Are we just being taken for a ride?

Whiskers... in tests 8 out of 10 British pensioners say they prefer it!!! (a land fit for heroes)

There are pros and cons to both sides of this discussion. I spent the afternoon yesterday in the shopping mall in Oberhausen, and for most of the time I thought I was in Istanbul. Gangs of teenage youths, all decked out in the latest fashions and jabbering away as if Germany was a part of the Ottaman Empire. Perhaps had they of been forced to speak the local dialect at an early age they wouldn't stand out so much and feel more integrated into German, Western society! Will they be following the progress of the German national team at the WM in a couple of months?? Their now adopted country?? No they'll be knifing travelling England fans cos their motherland failed to qualify.

When we moved here four years ago only my wife could speaka da lingo, naturally as she's German. Now all the kids are fluent, both my step sons are in full time employment and my step daughter is doing work experience. Even me, the die hard of the bunch, has jumped over my own shadow and am making a concerted effort to master the language. If one wants to remain in a country long term then one must make the effort to fit in, along with your offspring! If one isn't prepared to make certain sacrifices then return from whence one came.

Germany has a large immigrant population and has to be very carefull about what systems of integration it employs, for fear of it's national history and intollerence of auslanders. If sometimes drastic and to some draconian measures are taken then this must be done to avoid the scenes we all saw at the end of 2005 in Paris. Where the sub culture of Paris society went on the rampage claiming that they feel isolated from the main. If that was to eventually happen here, then at least their greiviences should be heard in GERMAN!!!

I was in Frankfurt the other day and came across a gang of American kids, all decked out in the latest fashion and jabbering away in English as if Germany was part of the American empire ... what? ... sorry I didn't realise

That's not a silly point, Silly Point. It highlights an intolerance to non-western societies. Been going on for centuries.

But witnessing the massive influx of English words into the German language, you'd think the Germans want to be part of the US anyway.

Exactly! Is it somehow for some people less 'offensive' to hear groups of teenagers speaking English than speaking any other ethnic minority language? Could that be because these groups of people aren't as pretty? Rich? Pleasant? That's a bit of a racist view.

So, now people isn't allowed to speak their own language among their friends while shopping in the mall? And at schools as long as the classes are in German the rest is not anyone's bussiness.
Those teachers should be working rather than eavesdropping in kids conversations among their friends when they are having a break, a time to unwind and relax.

My husband is German, my daughter was born here too but raised entirely in London, a year ago we came to Germany so my husband could spend some time near his family.
My daughter is 11 years old and doesn't want to have ANY connection to German culture. Why? Maybe what Adi posted earlier explains it:


My daughter feels this way, forced and punished, therefore now she has made her mind up that she wants nothing to do with this country in terms of culture or language. She as I said, is German by blood and by law but wants no part of it. I know she is only young but she feels English 100% and has made sure she surrounds herself with English friends because she just doesn't feel welcomed here.

In this school year although she has been having extra German classes she has barely learnt to say good morning or thank you but 6 months ago they introduced French classes in her school and she has learnt now 5 times more French in half the time.
Why? Because she isn't been forced, because she associates it with positive stuff therefore she enjoys it and wants to learn more and more, whereas German for her is a sort of punishment.
My husband is saddened by this but ackowledges that in general there's still loads of discrimination and alienation towards anyone coming from a different origin in this country and his own daughter begging him to leave this place makes it harder on him. He knows it isn't going to work in the long run.

In England when I arrived no one told me I HAD to learn English, no one gave me an ultimatum or patronised me, I was eager to learn, I wanted to because I felt comfortable and I did, badly but I did.
I worked, had friends and fully integrated, I felt truly at home.
Here the moment I arrived, I went with my husband to have the visa in my passport renovated and the guy there basically wouldn't let me go unless I signed up for an 'integration course' and said I had to learn German quick otherwise they wouldn't give me a permanent visa, so he gave me a 3 year visa instead.
Fair enough, I knew all that already but the way he said it, like telling me off was appalling, my husband ended up having a big argument with him and he only backed down when my husband said that he'd write an article about the way they treat people in these places.

Of course this is just MY own personal experience in both countries.
Luckily we don't plan to remain here forever otherwise I wouldn't see a future.
.. once something is tainted...

This example is a bit of a sidetrack, as these are more likely to be part of the 100,000s of US forces stationed here rather than economic or political migrants.

My personal interpretation of Bullys statement was that the non-German population seems to be rapidly increasing by the month - if you were not living in Germany at the moment he thought you may not have realised? I have certainly noticed it in my area of Monchengladbach/Rheydt/Wickwrath. Apart from the "traditional" Muslem/Turk immigration, the number of Polish people for example seems to be rapidly growing round here. This seems to be the experience in parts of the UK as well. A programmme the other night about Wigan had the towns population jump to 6+% of Poles from nothing in a couple of years (since the borders opened).

thanks Vloid that is what i meant, and do i know gladbach

Diana that is what i was saying, i mean to have to speak german in the classroom is ok to a point that the child needs help learning, you cant have the other children falling back because of a new kid that doesnt speak the lingo. But this can be sorted with the child so that they feel accepted.

But to impose it in the playground that is wrong and by me no way of going about it.

Diana, I just love what you wrote and you are so absolutely right about the emotional side of it!!!

Doesnt this forcing people to speak particular languages smack of the Nazi era, when for example the Alsacer were forced to speak german and not french?

Why cant people just accept that there is diversity in this world? Yes for your day to day life you need to be able to speak german if you live in Germany long term, but dont prohibit people from speaking other languages as well. I speak german on a day to day basis and am more or less fluent, but I also enjoy the opportunity to speak or write in english. You can see all the absurdities and stubbornness they have in Belgium with the flemish and walloons, especially in Brussels. We here on Britboard are speaking mostly english. Or should the Britboard posts all have to be solely in german??

Or perhaps we should abolish all other languages on this planet and bring in a UN decree that everyone on planet Earth must speak english and only english!

IS it true that she goes to an international school and not a German one then. ?

No one is forcing anything, surely if kids are at a German school, learning only in German then they should be maximising the opportunity to use German. I think its a knee jerk over reaction from the Union Jack brigade If you don't want to the kids to learn it then fine but they need to go to an international school then. I really cannot believe the negativity by some of the people on here. Come to a country at least try to integrate and give your kids a chance to do the same. Ask yourselves honestly if it was in the UK where they said they wanted to make foreign kids speak English at school you'd all be nodding sagely and saying 'Ohhh yes come here you need to integrate'

Well, I can't say that after three kids and 20 years of different schools here that I've noticed any non-German pupil being forced to speak German in the classroom. Of course German is spoken in the classroom! Does anyone know of a state school in Germany where this isn't the case? Hands up if you do! In the playground amongst their own they would probably speak their own language, but with German pals it's German. I've known one incident only of a Deutschland-Russin coming into the same class as my son, who is nearly 17. Her knowledge of German was very poor and because the school didn't have the capacity during school time, she had help out of school hours. All very normal actually.

How many of us speak to each other in German when just one other person is there who only speaks German, out of consideration?

Yes they are! That's exactly the point: children being forced to speak only German in the playground at breaktimes. I don't think anyone has suggested they have problem with only German being used in lessons - that's obviously normal. The problem is entirely and only with the enforcement of language used in the playground. Coercion breeds resentment and not cooperation.

Have you actually read the proposals... ... Do we really know what it means...as usual its the knee jerk reaction :$

Sorry but I think your comment was rather silly. I'm a security guy and I'm not stupid and I don't think I'm cool and tough. Maybe If you did our job and we're treated the way we are, you'd sometimes have an attitude.

Kirk

Sorry Kirk but when i see these guys that run around these shopping centres with a beret on, walking like John Wayne then I just laugh my head off. No disrespect to you.
If the security guys didnt run around the way they do here then they might get a bit more respect.
You may well be different to the ones i have known or seen so if this has upset you then sorry.

Yes, I have read them.

Yes,I do understand what it means.

...and therefore, no it isn't ("the knee jerk reaction")

In der Hausordnung der Berliner Schule, die jeder Schüler unterschreiben musste, heißt es: "Die Schulsprache unserer Schule ist Deutsch, die Amtssprache der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Jeder Schüler ist verpflichtet, sich im Geltungsbereich der Hausordnung nur in dieser Sprache zu verständigen."

Cammy, have you actually read any of the posts here. I would estimate that the majority of parents here who are against this proposal are indeed trying to integrate and do have children who go to German schools and speak German.

It is this proposal of banning the speaking of other languages during breaks, that is a knee-jerk reaction to the real problems of integration in this country, and by the way I don't think the politicians who are jumping on the band wagon and proposing a nationwide Deutschpflict have the union jack brigade in mind.

Alles Klar, apology accepted. The Security Guys round your way might just have extremely large testicules, therefore they look as if they are immitating John Wayne.

Yes but nowhere does it say anyone will be punished or beaten...or that the playgrounds will be patrolled by Sprachepolizei. it looks to me that its a guidleine and clarification that German is the language of the school and that German should be used within the school.

Well if the people didn't keep getting carried away and adding security patrols, punishment, coercion...etc etc...The article itself makes a clear statement that German is the school language and it should be used in the school. Now how that is implemented is obviously OPEN to further consideration. I think that there is way too much negativity put into this, we should be encouraging kids to speak German as much as possible.

I'm not 100% sure what issue they are trying to resolve with the statement as the school my child attended was all German by default as there were so few Auslanderkinder. I'm 99.99% sure its not the brother and sister at the school talking in English between themselves...maybe its to try an encourage integration through language where they have larger minority groups.

Silly Point,
Ask yourself truthfully if you'd be so against this if it were English in English schools, schools that your kids attended where they had significant ethnic groups in...

but doesnt have to?, so no forcing of German language??

If you read the articles correctly then you will find that it is about forcing the kids to speak German in the school, including the playground.

Deutschpflicht says it all!

If the intention was not to enforce the rule then it would not need to be in the "House rules", would it? Maybe you think that schools have these rules just to show that rules can be ignored in Germany?

Such a rule is a gift to bigotted teachers and other school staff who would like to make life difficult for immigrants and would do nothing to further the cause of integration.

Hello everyone
this is my first post...
considering that i have been living in germany since 1973, with the odd break, i`d like to think that i know the germans inside out.
the main reason for such a law in germany would be to integrate the "other Foreigners", meaning turkish, russians and so on
At the end of the day, to really make the law work you would have to install some kind of "Language Police" everywhere.
and, lets think about it, to get somebody charged with the "offence" of not speaking german, they would have to prove that in a court of law. and that should prove to be very difficult

@Cammy, the school in Berlin introduced their Hausordnung after consulting with parents, teachers and pupils. Their rules made (as far as I can see) no mention of Pflicht and no mention of punishment. This does not seem unreasonable, even if I disagree with the policy.

However since then numerous politicians have jumped onto this bandwagon and started proposing a state- or nationwide Deutschpflicht in playgrounds with possible sanctions for those who do not conform:

'CSU-Generalsekretär Markus Söder hat sich für eine bundesweite Deutschpflicht auf Schulhöfen ausgesprochen..'

'(Ministerpräsident) Oettinger hatte sich bei einer Landtagsdebatte dafür ausgesprochen, dass Deutsch generell die einzige erlaubte Sprache auf den Schulhöfen im Land wird'

Also a CDU politician in Hamburg (and I'm afraid I can no longer find the quote) proposed a punishment of sweeping the playground for children caught speaking a foreign language in the Pausenhof.

As a result the debate has shifted from encouraging children to speak German, which I think both you and I would support, to forbidding children to speak in their mother language in their breaks.

And yes if my kids were at school in England I would expect English to be used at all times in the classroom, but I would not object to kids speaking Urdu in the playground.

Of course this will be applied to the "other Foreigners", but does that make it right? This rule will be applied selectively, and you can be sure that English will not be the language selected for repression. I'm sick of hearing people tell me that anti-foreigner rules are not meant 'for me'.

rebecca pointed this out in practice at her local kindergarten.

As for an 'offence' having to be proven in a court of law, when was the last time you saw playground rules go to court? That's absurd. 'Little Johnny stole my sandwich, your honour.' Teachers will have the authority to enforce this rule just like all others.

No, you are quite right, it does not make it right.
this rule would NOT be applied selectively, because that would be discriminating.
as to you beeing sick of being told certain rules are not meant for you...do you feel bad, because you count to european foreigners, who are more tolerated by the germans than others ?
but it does not matter. i do not want to start this kind of discussion.

there is a difference between laws und rules !
if the german government decides to implement this law, then you are wrong, in thinking, that a teacher has the authority to enforce a law. all she/he can do, is to report to the appropiate authoritys. other than that, what are they going to do? send you, as aparent, a "blauer Brief"(Tadel)...whoops, whoopy f... dooo.
my mum, bless her, used to tell the teacher - come to me when my son starts robbing old ladys or words to that effect

and, once again, you are right in thinking, (i hope) that it will not come to such extreme measures, as a courtcase. all in all, what i am trying to say is that - even if this law is implemented it is impracticable and i would not worry too much about it.

The Security Guards fight back, BB

even if this law is implemented it is impracticable and i would not worry too much about it.

I think most of the posts here are agreeing that this proposed rule would be difficult to enforce.

What worries me is that the problem of kids going through the school system without learning German, is met by this proposal, rather than some serious plans to ensure all non german speaking kids get the necessary help with the language when they enter the school system here. It's not a constructive or sensible proposal, it's punitive, pointless and does nothing to address the root causes of the problem.