German as the only language allowed in school playgrounds

Some German politicians have suggested that German should be the only language allowed to be spoken by kids in school playgrounds. Apparently it's supposed to help with integration of immigrant children.

Various news articles about it via google: Deutschpflicht auf Schulhöfen

Reminds me of the stories I heard about Welsh and Irish kids being forced to speak Welsh or Gaelic in school, with risk of punishment if caught speaking English.

[Found via Hebig.com]

Yes this used to happen I had many friends who went to a Welsh medium school!

In the classroom, fine. But in the schoolyard? A bit overboard, I'd say.

I'm right wiv ya

I'm supposed to be moving to Frankfurt soon and i think my 2 and 3 year old will destroy me if they were to go into a playground be it at school or nursery (whatever you guys call it over there) and listen to kids speak German to them there would be hell to pay for me when they got home...

I think it's not fair to impose it in the playgrounds either.

In the past it used to be "Welsh not" in schools!

I would be interested to see what would happen if this were ever tested under the Human Rights act...

However, I do think that encouraging kids to speak German as much as they can is a positive thing.

You have to try to understand, why the government make this rule. In most Auslander families here, usually only the Father attempts to learn to speak German. The mothers, and pre-school children only ever speak their own language, some women NEVER learn to speak German.
Integration can only ever truly be accomplished when all the parties concerned speak the same language.
There is enough difference between the cultures to assure the Auslanders that they will never lose their identities, but they MUST learn the language of their chosen country of residence if they are ever to integrate.
It really is simple:- If you choose to live in another country, other than your own, then you must accept the rules.
If you don't like the rules ... go home.

I agree completely. If kids aren't going to learn the language in the country they live in in school (the playground is where foreign kids get to mix most!), then where else? The home language can still be spoken enough at home and being able to speak more than one language completely fluently is a massive advantage for the kids that they'll be able to exploit later.

raffles,

I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't encourage children to speak German in Germany but there's a big difference between encouraging, helping and supporting the child and punishing it.
There's also the practical problem of how to enforce the rule. What will they do if they hear someone speaking Turkish? Take the child to court? Remove it from school? Take the parents to court? That's hardly going to bring about an 'integration' mindset.
The proposed solution is a cheap cop-out. It means that nobody has to pay (either money or just spare-time effort) to support kids whose native/home language is not German.

Adi, I cannot agree that it is a cheap cop-out. Are the mature Auslanders in England being taught in schools at the British taxpayers expense? I think not ... yet the German public are asked to dig even deeper into their pockets to fund this learning programme. If integration is speeded up by this, then it must be a good thing.
Look at what non-integration has brought us in the UK... Demonstrations and contempt from the asylum seekers who have been provided with homes and Social benefits. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.!!!

You cannot force people to speak a language or follow a particular culture. It might be better to have some kind of encouragement for immigrants to pass a course in German - maybe set according to age.

Trying to prevent people speaking their native language is what the Latvians are up to... They have introduced laws relating to language and citizenship that deny citizenship to people not ethnically Latvian or Liv, whose families arrived after 1940 and who have not passed some tests on history and language. It is forbidden to teach in Russian in schools, even if all the pupils are native Russian speakers. Non-citizens have a special "Alien" passport, cannot vote, hold any public sector job, etc... Oh - because these people are not Latvian citizens, they are not EU citizens and have no rights under EU law.

They have successfully alienated 40% of the population (including the Slavs who are citizens) and probably guaranteed the early demise of the Latvian language. Hardly anyone in Riga speaks Latvian now - they all speak Russian.

Actually, Editor Bill, Irish kids were forced to speak English and were (physically) punished for speaking Irish (Gaelic) in school (and later by their parents when they went home. In retrospect, it was an extremely effective policy and it (by and large) achieved the aim of those who administered it. )

(I'm Irish and I had to comment on this. I'm not trying to stir up trouble; I just felt that the distinction was important and that I couldn't let it go without correcting it).

However, in fairness to you, certain (most?) Irish language summer colleges in Irish speaking areas have a policy of kicking kids out of the college and sending them home (without refunding their parents) if they persist in speaking English. I think this is fair enough. The kids are there for the express purpose of improving their Irish (Gaelic) and if they were let away with constantly speaking English it would completely undermine what the colleges are trying to achieve.

(If the TEFL colleges in Ireland were to apply this rule to the Spanish kids who go to Ireland to learn English, however, the whole lot of them would be on a plane out of the country on the second day of the course. I know this from having taught TEFL in Ireland. )

I agree with most comments made here that one should learn the language of the country you are living in etc etc.

But the one big thing is, How will you impose this? What can you do if a child speaks in his own language in the playground. Fine him? Ban him? (every kid would talk weird) This whole thing is pathetic not worth us commenting on it.

Wrong Bill... in Wales children were often punished for speaking WELSH in school even if it was their first language This disgraceful practice was known as the 'Welsh Not' ... please take note Purple Muffin and Bombi.
Cymru am byth!

For those of you suggesting that this is a good proposal: if my children were to bump into each other in the school playground and be found talking English to one another, should they be made to sweep the playground, which is the punishment currently being suggested? Or if a German friend wanted to practise their English with them, same punishment?

This is a crackpot proposal, which contradicts everything I have read about raising bilingual children, whereby children should be encouraged to use the language that comes naturally to them in any given situation.

Brilliant point, and a good personal example.

Time and time again when the government makes these sorts of proposals (and it was much worse when I lived in Denmark), I am told that it is targeted at stubborn immigrent groups. Even if you accept that those groups deserve this sort of targeting (which I do not, just to make that clear), why do I care who the law is supposed to target when myself and others still end up getting hit?

Perhaps it would be easier to insist that all " would be citizens " were told that they could only apply for entry with the proviso that they, and all mature members of their families were able to speak basic German BEFORE they were allowed into the country.
Bet you a pound to a penny they would all soon be able to speak German.!!! Maybe it would be a boon to the female members of these cultures to be recognised for a change. Would give them a bit of freedom and feeling of self-worth, which many of them are in need of.

As a punishment I suggest: no cigarettes for a week!

I wonder how many britboarders we would still have in Germany if that rule was rigidly applied!
I also do not believe that the language abilities of the parents have much influence on the childrens' ability to learn German. I deliberately did not speak German to my children when they were young, yet they are both now fluent having learned from friends, teachers, neighbours, tv etc. I also know other children who speak fluent German, despite the fact that their English parents still have difficulties with the language.

I think the difference between our (British) experiences here and those of other immigrant groups with bi-lingual children is to do with the shere numbers and the amount of difference between cultures.

The greater the cultural difference, the more likely you are to try and reproduce your native culture at home. Couple this with large communites of people from the same culture and this reproduction extends beyond individual homes and makes up communities. An ethnic-turkish child growing up in Germany CAN submerse itself in turkish culture quite easily. In most large cities they can live in area populated by large numbers of people speaking the same language and sharing the same culture. There is no need to intergrate.

On the other hand, most ethnic-Brits growing up here have little choice but to intergrate. The numer of english speaking families in any given town is quite small and reasonably spread out, thus forcing the child to make friends from the native population. Also the differences between German and British culture is not that great and Brits can therefore more easily create an environment at home that is both comfortable for them and not foreign for any German.

Well said Owain. 100% agreement. The non-european populace is very large, and do tend to congregate and form their own " Little Whatever. " This dis-courages integration. The children learn the language but do not integrate. Very few men socialise with other nationalities, ... and the women?... they do what they are told, and will probablynever be allowed to integrate. The younger girls and boys will learn the language eventually, but if, like me , you use public transport, I think you will find that these are the most raucous people on the bus , with total disregard, and no respect whatever, to any instructions from the transport authorities or others.

Sorry, yes, that's what I actually meant. Just got it a bit mixed up

Speaking German as a foreigner doesn't mean you are going to or are willing to integrate. There's a large Russian contingent here and they've just about taken over part of a new housing area here, in fact, the brother of a colleague of mine sold his new house shortly after he had built it, because he ended up being surrounded by Russians who took it in turns to help each other build their houses.

Making a rule like this isn't a very constructive response. I have seen a similar rule applied in our local kindergarten when I was helping wth breakfast supervision. I was told not to let the turkish boys sit together as they kept talking turkish and the kindergarten has a german language only rule.

I complained , the german language only rule is fine, a rule that exists only for one nationality group is not. I didn't want my kids to think it is normal and acceptable to set up this sort of rule. It didn't encourage the boys in question to speak any more german, they just ate in silence. Getting a child to develop language skills requires positive intervention not this sort of unenforceable ban. Wouldn't teachers feel their time is better spent helping the kids who don't have german as a first language rather than punishing them for it.

The school system doesn't allow for the time or the staff needed for this kind of teaching.

My father was told off for speaking dialect at school in Leeds. I was told off for using cockney rhyming slang and "wrong grammar" at school.

These politicians are no different from "prescriptivists" in any country. Only here they dare air their views. And they gun away at people from other countries for not integrating.

In the UK we're so PC now nobody dares say a thing any more. My son is growing up bilingually. I agree, he should speak German at school.

Sure, but was that on the playground or in the classroom?

He/she should speak German in class but doesn't have to speak it in the playground. The other kids will soon tell him/her they don't understand and if he/she wants to play and join in then he/she will have no choice but to speak German!

Yes it does. At my son's Grundschule they set aside 1 hour a week to provide extra German tuition for children who are not yet fluent. And before anyone starts complaining about 'preferred treatment' the school also offers extra tuition for children with reading and writing difficulties (LRS).

In any school you will have children who are weaker in some areas than others, it maybe reading difficulties, chronic shyness, physical disabilities etc. Most good teachers will make the effort to assist these children overcome there difficulties. Why should children with language difficulties be excluded?

Then you have been lucky. I know of no schools in our area that provide this. A general provision of 15 minutes each morning "Förderdeutsch" is given for German and foreign kids who are weak in the language at the local Grundschule. Nothing is given for those entering the school system at a later level, say in class 8 or 9, during school time.

Well it's certainly not a good use of teachers' time supervising playground conversations.

If it doesn't then what the hell are you spending your money on in school, because with the sound of it it's only used to teach kids German, not reading writing names learning to respect one an other etc...

I would'nt like to think that when we get over there, my children coming home crying everyday because they were forced to speak a language they have only just walked into.

My youngest started in Class 1 and apart from the teacher who speaks a little English, he is totally surrounded by German speakers. At first he found this hard and we had a few problems but after a few weeks of coaxing him into actually going to school, he is now really happy to go. He has lots of German friends, some of them he didn't understand at first but as the months have passed, he is learning more and more German (this without any extra German language tuition). At this age they usually fit in with the other kids (language barrier not a problem when they are playing together). As the weeks pass, he speaks more and more German which I personally think is a great skill having the knowledge of 2 languages.

My older two boys attend a school and are in an Intensive German learning programme (amongst other auslanders) There are no more than 10 in their class and they also communicate with other Nationalities, having become good friends with Thai boys who speak very little English at all. It makes them practise their German skills as this is the one language that they are both learning. They come home with lots of homework and fingers crossed, so far so good.

As for not allowing any language but German in the playground, well this is just ridiculous. Forbidden for speaking yr mother tongue? Crazy! There is enough time in the classroom where only Deutsch is spoken.

Hellie, you appear to be one of the few who are viewing this " suggestion " in a sensible manner. You seem to be a very level-headed Mother, and I do hope your children benefit from your outlook.
We should always remember that we are guests here, wether registered or not, and this Government makes regulations as it sees fit, and not always as we would like ... much the same as our very own UK Government.

Raffles.

I agree that, as guests here, we should observe the various rules and regulations imposed by the government. However, this is a democracy and everyone has a right to their own opinion and to express it openly. Whilst I can only vote in local elections, my taxes help pay for the government here and the various institutions for which they are resposible - like schools.

By the same token, I have no problem with foreigners legally resident in the UK passing comment on issues that affect them there.

Interesting topic with the usual wide range of views. I wonder what would happen if you posed the same question in England? I'm pretty sure that you would find there would be a large majority in favour of English being the only language permitted at school.

English being the main language in the classroom, like German is the main language in the classroom here. After all, this is Germany. In Niedersachsen there have been discussions about introducing a German language test for all school beginners (regardless of nationality) to see if they come up to the required standard. To enforce the use of one language in the playground, however, is just ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? We must remember we are guests here and so we must behave as guests. What the host decides, the guest must accept. Good guests dont argue with the host!

I don't agree with this 'Good guests don't argue with the host' concept. There is a difference between abiding by laws (which we do) and having an opinion on suggestions being made that will affect us. I happen to think that a rule that would prevent my children speaking english to each other in the school playground is ridiculous (in actual fact they would be more likely to speak German these days, but that wasn't always the case)..
Obviously if it did become policy we would abide by it, but before that stage arrives we have the right, in a democracy, to oppose it . I can do this by making my opinion known to the Schulbeirat, by writing to the Schulamt, by using my vote in the local elections or even by venting on the britboard ;-).

I certainly don´t feel that I am a guest in this country. I have lived here 35years, worked and paid taxes for most of this time and have become integrated in the local community. I think the fact that I am not of German nationality shouldn´t mean I can´t have an opinion about policies or that I can´t make my views known.

rick_de do you also make your guests pay when they visit you? I do not see myself as a guest.
As jwn said, after being here for any amount of time and paying into the system, then you are not a guest.

exactly my feelings too. I was making a demonstration against this guest nonsense. I too have been living here many years, and in no way see myself as a guest. Nor do I regard the ever increasing numbers of germans and other EU citizens now living in the UK as guests. This "guest" thing is an oldfashioned, deferential, humble, "be-thankful-for-what-you-are-given" attitude that is not appropriate in this context.

OK i misunderstood it then. After being here for just over 30 years and paying into the system all this time i also dont like this guest thing.

On the other hand...

maybe we are all just "guestworkers"?? (Gastarbeiter)!!!

My son (English)is at a Kindergarten with a French boy who started at a simialr time and they are both learning German. Not surprisingly they will occasionally use an English or French word because they either don't know the German or subconciously think that the word is the same in German too.

I'd be bl**dy furious if they were punished for that!

Would I be punished for speaking English in the playground too?

I don't think Bellesparks neighbours treat her as they would a guest...

We're not guests, we're tax-paying disenfranchised foreigners.

who done a boo boo, i think the wrong thread?

Apart from anything else, how would only speaking German in the playground be enforced? Get the kids to snitch on each other if they speak anything else but German?

Do u mean me, sir? Thought we were talking about us being guests here ... I just took it a bit further.

sounds like the Stasi that 'what was that word you said?'

@Luke me a sir . never i did mean you though gotcha now. takes time nowadays