Respekt! Britain versus Germany in the social behaviour stakes

The current debate going on in the UK about the need for more respect has me wondering. Over there theres much talk of "yob culture" and chavs, bad behaviour in public places like spitting, drunkenness, throwing up, road rage, shop rage, queue rage, attacks on people and property. Tony Blair says its now time to do something about it (like John Major 10 years ago with his Back to Basics campaign).

But I wonder why it is that there is no similar such problem in Germany, at least not on the level of Britain. Or is there? What do other people think about this?

I think people are generally more 'socially minded' in Germany, so you do get less of the anti-social behaviour here. But... I think ordinary people (i.e. not the yoof element) swear more here (Scheiße this, Scheiße that...) and behaviour in schools (disrespect for teachers) is probably almost as bad here.

In a word upbringing.
Generally, I think german parents are just more disciplined when it comes to their kids bad behaviour, by that I mean they don't let them get away with murder. thats not to say British parents can't rasie their kids properly, from what I've seen there is just as much love there but they are liberal when it comes to bad behaviour.
My girlfriends family is huge and most of her sisters have 2 or 3 kids, most of them in the teenage years, sure they are cheeky but all of them are lovely lovely kids, very respectful to their olders.
My brothers son is 14, a lovely lad, a cheeky sod, but lovely with a heart the size of merseyside but his mates are all utter idiots and thick as well. forever getting into trouble.
yeah, it's an intreresting topic...thats my theory anyway..could be wrong ...I could be right.

Maybe its also got something to do with the language conventions here: the Du/Sie thing, we dont have in Britain, that serves to maintain a standard of formality in Germany. Plus also the fact that the germans tend to be so rule-obeying, even though we english sometimes find it pettyminded. Like insisting that you wait at the lights for the green man, rather than dashing across when you feel like it like everyone does in England - even the police. (Damn it, lots of the traffic lights in England dont even have pedestrian lights, unlike here). The way you are expected to say Guten Tag und Wiedersehen when you enter and leave a shop, and even just entering and leaving a lift. All this maybe serves to help keep social behaviour under control. That and the generally more reserved nature of people here.

Or perhaps all these things are just Donald Rumsfelds "Old Europe" vs let-it-all-hang-out USA and UK! Will the negative British ways of behaving find their way to Germany in 10 years time...

I don't know if I agree with this premise.

The number of Germans, be it teenagers right up to grannies, who are rude, disrespectful, etc. is shocking. I see people spitting all over the streets and on trains and nobody seems to know how to use a public garbage bin. The streets would be overflowing with waste if there weren't people to clean them up nearly every day. You don't have queue jumping, actually you have quite a lot of it in supermarkets, because you generally don't have queues. Instead you have an unholy free for all in most situations.

Meanwhile, most of the Brits I have met (I have to admit that I have not spent all that much time in the UK) have been very well behaved. When Brits get drunk they're scary, and this is the problem I suspect, but otherwise I find them to be about the best behaved people in the world.

The Brits I have met all seem to have a sort of 'civilised' mentality, whereas a lot of the Germans I see are slobs. Maybe the natives who stay on the island are different.

Allot of the problem comes from Binge Drinking, young Brits tend to drink them selves stupid, solution is simple, higher taxes, problem is higher taxes discourages binge drinking which leads to lower sales and profits from the liquor companies. hence the reason why taxes aren`t higher.

Could also be that none of us read or watch German news so we don`t know what`s happening here!

Totally agree with you Ami. I couldn`t even understand why so many people think that Germany doesn`t have so much of a problem with anti-social behaviour when I read this thread! My experience of Germany is that it really isn`t that much different from the UK in many ways at all. In my opinion, and sorry for any offence I may cause, Germans are some of the most bad-mannered and rude people I`ve ever known.

nice one or is it just bad grammar?
As it sounds it means I am one of the most bad-mannered and rude people you've ever known though you don't even know me.
IF I would say something like this, I would have added another "some" before the nationality.

oooohh Hannah people in glass houses

Come on it is clear that Kaz is just generalising so give her a break! What she means is that generally German people do not come accross as polite and friendly to us Brits!

To be honest I do not really notice it anymore and if I am honest I would not say that people in the UK are more polite!

this might be the problem. In UK people behave the same and from loads of areas which I have seen (been in UK and in different loacations there), in loads of areas there are not even people who clean them up

(why do so many posts here always make me reply and not only make me feel to defend myself for being German )


glass house cuz my grammar is bad aswell? Sorry, I am native German typing and reading english and have an excuse for understanding things wrong

Hey you shouldn't have to defend yourself!!!

The grammar comment was probably me being British and over polite as I do not think it is fair to claim that somebody is using bad grammar that is all!

yeah well see? Apart from the language thingy this adds aswell
I think it's more rude to say all germans are the rudest and bad behaving people than asking, if somebody used bad grammar, cuz I do aswell

Hey I never said that at all did I???

As for bad behaviour look at the Brits after they have had a few pints now I have never seen any German people behave quite like that! Am I confirming your point here Hannah?

Have a nice day peeps I am off to a meeting

no it wasn't you who said it

Have a nice day too and all pps aswell, if we won't "see" again before Tuesday I say bye already. My birthday is coming up and since the 1st number will change, not only the 2nd one (know the saying "runder Geburtstag"?) it will be a big party but no Brit apart from my boyfriend will come. Maybe 1 other one (does Doncaster count as being british?), but not sure yet.

I will tell you the difference how who behaved on Tuesday

I think both nations are equally rude. A German's directness and desire to give an opinion no matter whose feathers are ruffled, doesn't do him any favours.

The difference is that Germans prefer to scream and shout with little fear of violence. The same cannot be said of Brits.

Good job Hannah isn't here. She'd slaughter me.

didnt say i wasnt here anymore, just told bye in case I will go before I post again

I won't slaughter you (maybe Germans are violent with words but not with actions)

I think both countries are neck and neck, yob culture is there in Germany, most large cities have a string of ghettos with this type of behaviour daily. As for the germans being more respectful, I had to laugh! Icould list 5 things now that show that the majority have absolutely no respect or manners...

1. Road Rage (everyday occurence here due to the self-important arrogance that the majority seem to posess)
2. Queues, this is simple manners, first there means you're FIRST !! I've seen little old ladies and women with children being shoved aside by not only the youth of Germany but many older ones too!!)
3. Giving up seats for older people or those with dificulties (Have yet to experience this in Germany!). the majority on public transport will even take up two seats with their shopping/coat/newspaper.
4. Ladies First! - very rarely do you see men holding doors open or just being Gentlemen in Germany, it's no wonder there's no direct translation for the word!
5. The arrogance that being German is far superior to all other nations, I've encountered many many people who believe that Germany is so so superior to any other country. Recently on the topic of Inventions and what the UK has contributed to the world I was faced with a lengthy discussion with some german because as far as he was concerned the telephone, tv, combustion engine and fax machine were all German inventions!

And don't get me started on their constant staring !!!

I could go on and on, but to sum it up I think the earlier post was correct, the MAJORITY of germans are bad mannered, unpolite and arrogant. Thank god it's only the adolescents in Britain ! People do grow out of student binges, grafitti and spitting sprees.

I think a lot of the yob culture can be caused by a lack of involvement from the older generations. In the UK I can see people ignoring children misbehaving therefore reinforcing the behaviour. In germany I would think that people would say something so the children were less inclined to do it again - or at least away from others!

i just don't understand why many expats living abroad complain so much about the country they are living in at the time (which they chose to live in themselves) and idealize their home country.
it happens to myself all the time too, when i'm back in the uk i see all the good things about germany but as soon as i'm back here the uk is sooo much better.
back to the actual thread - i think the british in general are more friendly and polite superficially, which many germans just simply are not. however you can meet just as many polite and friendly people
in germany and in britain and anywhere else.
respect is a totally different thing in germay as already stated before the germans are so used to laws and hierachies that especially young people seem much more respectful here.
however the so called "american" influences thru the media is very strong especially in the schools with kids wearing hoodies and trousers dangling round their knees and this youth with idols such as 50cent and that lot is just not german or british anymore they are the same everywhere in europe and the states.

I find that I and other 'foreigners' are the only people in Berlin who ever confront anyone regarding anti-social behavior. If I see someone smoking on the underground, I tell them to stop. If I see someone scratching grafatti on the bus, I tell them to stop. If I see someone queue jumping, I call them out. If I see a dog crapping in front of my house, I tell the owner to fuck off. In every one of these situations the Germans look the other way and pretend that nothing is happening. I had the funny experience once of having myself and an old Vietnamese woman yanking a cigarette out of a bum's mouth on the train. The Germans were absolutely shocked that anyone would stand up to him.

I'm not saying that all Germans are rude, I just don't agree with the premise that started this thread that Brits are rude while Germans are not.

If Blair wants to start a public order campaign, I wish he'd do it in Berlin.

Just for the record Charlie, I lived in Hamburg for 13 years and returned to the UK 12 months ago, so my opinion wasn't blurred with homesickness, I've seen both sides of the fence and the grass is definately greener back home.

[/quote]i just don't understand why many expats living abroad complain so much about the country they are living in at the time (which they chose to live in themselves) and idealize their home country.
[quote]

Because it's fun?

As for me I don't understand why people don't understand why expats complain.

... plus I don't think anything said here has been offensive or too far from the truth.

I have to admit I have always found the Germans to be more respectful and to have more personal dignity and pride. I think a lot of this is to do with the way Germans prioritise the family. Commercial areas closed on Sundays, a better worklife balance and so on. This gives kids a more secure and close knit family.

I also think that many Germans believe they make their own luck in life. I know Germany has always been very generous with state benefits etc, but I never get the impression that Germans sit at home thinking the world owes them a living. They seem to get out and get on with it. I think this type of philosophy breeds respect for oneself, others and your surroundings as well as personal responsibility.

Having said all that I do live in a bit of an expat bubble and I suspect that many of Germany's social problems pass me by. It is a very interesting topic. I'm not really sure how the UK can fix the problem. We seem to have come so far in the wrong direction that it seems almost impossible to go back.

QUOTE:

I have to admit I have always found the Germans to be more respectful and to have more personal dignity and pride. I think a lot of this is to do with the way Germans prioritise the family. Commercial areas closed on Sundays, a better worklife balance and so on. This gives kids a more secure and close knit family.

- You could be right about that.

I also think that many Germans believe they make their own luck in life. I know Germany has always been very generous with state benefits etc, but I never get the impression that Germans sit at home thinking the world owes them a living. They seem to get out and get on with it. I think this type of philosophy breeds respect for oneself, others and your surroundings as well as personal responsibility.

- Not sure about that. Ive met plenty of people here who DO think the world owes them a living. Will subsist on Arbeitslosengeld/-Hilfe or whatever for years and expect "die Behörden" to fix something up for them. Many are loath to move to other cities. The work must come to them.

The worst place for this attitude - and Ive lived in several cities in Germany - seems to me to be Berlin. Some people there - university qualified german people, unemployed, that I know are "shocked" that I travel 1 hour each way to work in Rhein-Main to have a job worth going to! They wouldnt get very far in London, there people commute 1-2 hrs in many cases, some 100-200 km every day, and nor would they get away with such attitudes there.

Having said all that I do live in a bit of an expat bubble and I suspect that many of Germany's social problems pass me by. It is a very interesting topic. I'm not really sure how the UK can fix the problem. We seem to have come so far in the wrong direction that it seems almost impossible to go back.

- You could be right about that too!

1. Road Rage (everyday occurence here due to the self-important arrogance that the majority seem to posess)
2. Queues, this is simple manners, first there means you're FIRST !! I've seen little old ladies and women with children being shoved aside by not only the youth of Germany but many older ones too!!)
3. Giving up seats for older people or those with dificulties (Have yet to experience this in Germany!). the majority on public transport will even take up two seats with their shopping/coat/newspaper.
4. Ladies First! - very rarely do you see men holding doors open or just being Gentlemen in Germany, it's no wonder there's no direct translation for the word!
5. The arrogance that being German is far superior to all other nations, I've encountered many many people who believe that Germany is so so superior to any other country. Recently on the topic of Inventions and what the UK has contributed to the world I was faced with a lengthy discussion with some german because as far as he was concerned the telephone, tv, combustion engine and fax machine were all German inventions!

I think all those points are true.

As regards doors and "ladies first":

Well I DO hold doors open for people - whether they are men or women. What irritates me though is that women will rarely let you through a door first. If women are equal, then the courtesty must work both ways, shouldnt it. Or is it a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it?

As for germans claiming they were first to invent this or that. I think you get that in all countries, France, UK, USA. Probably the russians claim to be the first to invent TV, the telephone and the fax machine!

Fully agree with the equality part, I believe it is common courtesy to hold the door open for the next person.

My personal experience over the last 11 years in Hamburg, is that there is less respect on a general level, than in Brighton/Worthing where I come from. I'm not talking about Germany and Germans in general, just Hamburg. In Hamburg, it's often the case that many people go about as if there is nobody else in the World about except themselves. Oddly enough the agressive people here range from 12 to 65 years old. I tend to avoid the Reeperbahn, Altona, St. Georg and Sternschanze in Hamburg, especially the supermarkets, as there are many people in these areas that want to start trouble.

I find it a breath of fresh air to go back to Brighton/Worthing and to be able to get off trains and buses without being pushed and trampled. My wife finds it amazing how queues remain intact, how cashiers ask how you are, even when they don't know you, and how it is possible to walk down the high street in a UK shopping area without being walked into or cut up. She finds it odd that when people make mistakes in the UK or bump into you by mistake, that they say sorry - she's German.

Our neighbours all live in houses worth well over a million Euros, about 30 percent of them are awful. The worst neighbour we have is an American neighbour who also runs a bar for spoilt rich kids. She is by far the worst person in our neighbourhood.

When we leave Hamburg and visit a small village nearby we usually find the general attitude of Germans much better.

All in all, I guess, if I was not married I would have left Germany by now, although it is not as bad as many think. The main reason being the amount of work available at the moment. The difficulties go in phases and it is especially difficult during the dark Winter months. The best way of fitting in is to understand every word that is being spoken around you. Many confuse not understanding the general conversation, with not fitting in.

interesting one, this one. In the DiL thread on 'what do you like least about Britain' someone wrote:
"3. die Einstellung mancher Englaender, dass sie alles erfunden haben und der Rest der Welt sowieso nur Kultur und Zivilisation hat, weil die Englaender sie "implementiert" haben."
i'm not going to say any more - I've already defended Britain in the original thread, which can be found here:
http://www.deutsche-in-london.net/forum/vi...er=asc&start=45

Heh heh. Touché, as we say in Frankfurt.

[quote][quote name='rick_de' date='Jan 12 2006, 04:38 PM' post='69564']
QUOTE:

[quote]I have to admit I have always found the Germans to be more respectful and to have more personal dignity and pride. I think a lot of this is to do with the way Germans prioritise the family. Commercial areas closed on Sundays, a better worklife balance and so on. This gives kids a more secure and close knit family.
[/quote][/quote]
I also agree with this.

[quote]I also think that many Germans believe they make their own luck in life. I know Germany has always been very generous with state benefits etc, but I never get the impression that Germans sit at home thinking the world owes them a living. They seem to get out and get on with it. I think this type of philosophy breeds respect for oneself, others and your surroundings as well as personal responsibility.[/quote]

And this.

[quote]The worst place for this attitude - and Ive lived in several cities in Germany - seems to me to be Berlin. [/quote]

I must admit - having several Brit. friends who have lived there for over 14 years - that Berlin is a different world. And I would also say I have never liked Hamburg much. I have to stay there on business and hate it?
Hmm?

[quote]1. Road Rage (everyday occurence here due to the self-important arrogance that the majority seem to posess)
[/quote]

I have already agreed with this somewhere else. One of our antipadian friends once said to me that generally, he considered the European man to be pretty weak (?). But when German men gets behind a steering wheel, then they really become men!�
Make of that what you will

[quote]2. Queues, this is simple manners, first there means you're FIRST !! I've seen little old ladies and women with children being shoved aside by not only the youth of Germany but many older ones too!!)
[/quote]

I'm with you on this one.

[quote]3. Giving up seats for older people or those with dificulties (Have yet to experience this in Germany!). the majority on public transport will even take up two seats with their shopping/coat/newspaper.
[/quote]

This is funny, because I see this (people giving up seats) on the tram all the time, and quite often from young Turks which, considering all the bad press they get, makes me smile. They’re not all bad (the youth I mean, not Turks in particular).

[quote]4. Ladies First! - very rarely do you see men holding doors open or just being Gentlemen in Germany, it's no wonder there's no direct translation for the word!
[/quote]

I would also not agree with this at all? And I'm often pleased to see people wait - in Kaufhof - etc, to hold the door open for me, and I always try to return the favour to others?
I'm not saying I don't believe your experiences, at all, I do. I just think it's funny?

[quote]5. The arrogance that being German is far superior to all other nations, I've encountered many many people who believe that Germany is so so superior to any other country.
[/quote]

I do wonder sometimes what sort of people you have to work with? I find people like this at work, but I also find many more who are the exact opposite? And I've stood in Brit bars here and listened to Brits talking as though they invented the world, and that it's a shame that they have to rub shoulders with any other scum?
Mind you, this is often the Rugby "collar-up" brigade? I fully expect to get flak (no jokes please) for this one

[quote]As for germans claiming they were first to invent this or that. I think you get that in all countries, France, UK, USA. Probably the russians claim to be the first to invent TV, the telephone and the fax machine!
[/quote]

Yep, have you ever listened to AFN. I thought we’d all got that one loud and clear ….The Americans invented everything! There WAS nothing three hundred years ago

And as for stating that "because it's fun" is a good reason for doing something? Have you ever seen A clockwork Orange?

There, wasn't too euphoric that time, I hope :-/

ps. I don't expect this quote thing to work for a moment, so please bear with me.

quote: http://www.deutsche-in-london.net/forum/vi...er=asc&start=45 / quote

hmm, interesting thread, Goldenmole is a bit of a dish ...

[/quote]i just don't understand why many expats living abroad complain so much about the country they are living in at the time (which they chose to live in themselves) and idealize their home country.
[quote]

This isnÄt complaining, it's comparing! When you've lived in more than one country for any length of time it's only normal to compare!

none of this is as annoying as our collective inability to quote will someone please spill the (British) beans on how to get this to work

Something is wrong with the page. Half of it is missing for some reason!

I find it the worst getting out of the lift at work the men always hurdle themselves past me! But to be honest I do not think this is just a German thing I think there are very few Gentlemen anywhere anymore. I hardly ever get help with my coat or anyone to open or hold a door for me! I am slowly learning to accept that that is the way it is nowadays.


Ahem well I hold doors open and let both men and women through doors first. I can clearly remember doing this a few months ago for a male colleague who did not mutter a word of thanks or acknowledgement so I am starting to wonder why I bother.

Which half?


Might be something to do with the colour of your clothing -- I've noticed purple is quite popular in door-keeping circles :doh:

As my memories of Frankfurt become ever more distant I must say that as far as behaviour stakes go Frankfurt was far more "well behaved" ie less yobs than in Manchester. I do despair when I go home and see the trash walking the UK streets. Ok, so people are less polite in general in Germany (queue jumping, road rage etc) but I find general behaviour on the whole decent. I think it's going downhill though in Germany, like it is everywhere else, but there still are strands of respect (teetering on the brink of ignorance/arrogance) to your fellow neighbour.
Britain has become far too liberal for my liking, and although I'm far from a Conservative, sometiems I just want to slap and birch most of the foul-mouthed kids I see hanging around the Spar back home after 20:00!!!

Maybe the reason that German men don't hold doors open for women is that the German women never say thank you.
A gentleman will always hold the door for a lady. It's just a shame there aren't that many ladies around anymore.

Good point Luke and one I had overlooked...

Quote Major from Faulty Towers when asked about German Women... "Great Card Players" but Bad Eggs the lot of 'em !! "Hate Germans, love Women !!"

Yep that is true! Mind you I am sure anyone who knows me will confirm that I am 100% a lady. I guess in some ways I am quite conservative!

I constantly hold the door for a lady; to tell you the truth, I don't really care if she says thank-you or not, I've done and I’ll do what feels like the proper behaviour for a gentlemen and if it doesn’t get acknowledged then she’s no lady, and after she has graced the doorway with her presence, you are now in the perfect position to stroll along behind her staring at her arse.

Aha, so now we're getting to hear the REAL reason why most men open the doors for us...should have known!!

Mac!!


Well I always say thank you and flash a nice smile. You never know when you might need something from that guy again - be it help with your car or trying to carry something The guy is always going to be more inclined to help the pretty girl with a nice smile as opposed to some feminist sour puss!!!

I am all for retaining these little acts of courtesy. I know it may come as some surprise to some here, but despite the macho bravado, I always hold the door open for ladies, even to the extent of overtaking them first to get to the door.

Furthermore I will more often than not also go to the passenger side of the car to open the door for any lady getting in .. possible exception being those who lean in through the open window first.

Oh I think I should trade my bf in

Seriously though that may be a very small thing but to me it really does make all the difference. There have been many occasions where the taxi has almost driven of with me still in it as nobody has opened the door!

Yes, I often get this non-response as well (from both males and females).


What about German women??

Only "possible" exemption?
To see the view from the front? Your silver tongue may have wooed some of the ladies on this site Maaph, but you ain't fooling me

Don't underestimate the ladies of the board Vloid