A rant about life in Frankfurt

For once I agree with Jean-Pierre!


Well I can well believe that. I mean, just how many people are living from pay cheque to pay cheque with a pile of debts and a mortgage? It must be frightening. I couldn't sleep at night if I were in that position!

I agree with JP too.
I got a brother that is a junkie. And no..he didn´t come from a bad home, rather the oposite. My Mum did everything for him and nearly ruined her marriage because of him. He was a waste of space from the word go. He turned to drugs at the age of 16 but before hand he started to shoplift, break into houses or stole from my Mum. He landed in prision at one point for 13 month because he had stolen a couple of my stepdad´s cheques and cashed them in. It came to a point that my Mum found a flat for him, furnished it and also financially supported him. But he still kept stealing from my Mum, sister and my Stepdad. He had so many chances to get cleaned up again but he never lasted very long. He went on National TV and slaged my Mum off. My Mum got him to the Doctors and they gave him Methadone (not sure of the spelling). Proudly she anounced that my brother was doing well and was slowly coming of drugs...little did she know..he was also injecting. He thought is was funny when he told me about it...I was disgusted by him.
He didn´t give a shit about any of us...he lied and decieved us...anything to get some cash to feed his habbit.
My Mum died 3 years ago of cancer, my brother didn´t once show face in the hospital but turned up at the house less then an hour of my Mums death. He demanded his share of my Mums jewelery...the piece of shit...to shoot it up his arm.
Junkies dont care about anybody but themselfs. Thing is...no matter what the reason was that they turned to drugs in the first place...they only see themselfs and in my eyes they are a waste of space.
There are many help programms for them and they take part...mostly because if they hit a dead end for cash, they know that they be given a replacement drug, free of charge and that ties them over for a while.

Have you ever seen the film : "Christiane F. Wir Kinder vom Bahnhofs Zoo". It was made in the early 80´s but still a very good film.
Christiane F. directed this film...it was about her own life. At the end of the film she had moved away from Berlin and was "Clean". She died a few years later of a Drug overdose.

Classic example from one of our outworkers who relies on a DSL connection in order to do her job. Hubby, a low-qualified type who has been unemployed for ages, manages to get a Praktikumsplatz with the added carrot of a job at the end, the other side of town. They decide to move nearer to the Firm to save travel costs and hope to get a Kindergarten place for their 3 year old twins. They move to an area without DSL. Hubby doesn't get the job, in fact, he doesn't even finish his Praktikum. She sits at home working, downloading/uploading stuff via ISDN, gets landed with a telephone bill for nearly €150 which they can't pay. The Telekom duly cuts off the phone. Now she can't work either.

Any addiction is selfish, whether it's smoking, drinking or drugs. My son's schoolclass was taken to a Drug Therapy Centre in Hannover and the guy hosting the visit was an ex-junkie. He emphasised over and over again not to even stark smoking, because for a lot of junkies, that's where the "career" began.

When you're addicted to something, you can't make sensible decisions. It's an illness. Mostly you need help and support to overcome your addiction.

It's not an illness. If it were, it would be the only illness in the world that you can cure just by deciding to cure yourself. It's that kind of bleeding-heart liberalism that gives junkies the perfect excuse for their selfishness. In life you should take responsibility for your own actions. I'm not against giving people a helping hand. But if they take advantage of that helping hand it should very quickly turn into a fist and knock their bloody teeth out.

Jean-Pierre

"Drug addiction is a complex illness. It is characterized by compulsive, at times uncontrollable drug craving, seeking, and use that persist even in the face of extremely negative consequences. For many people, drug addiction becomes chronic, with relapses possible even after long periods of abstinence.

The path to drug addiction begins with the act of taking drugs. Over time, a person's ability to choose not to take drugs can be compromised. Drug seeking becomes compulsive, in large part as a result of the effects of prolonged drug use on brain functioning and, thus, on behavior"

NIDA (National Institute on Drug Abuse)

Read more from source article.

I suppose whether one considers it an "illness" depends on how you define the term. Personally I think that labelling addiction an "illness" gives people an excuse to do nothing about it because it is somehow out of their personal control, like cancer or arthritis, when exactly the opposite is true. The only person who can get an addict to give up is the person themselves. Making the addiction more tolerable/comfortable for the addict does them no favours, it merely reduces the need for them to come off and prolongs the torment.

Jean-Pierre

To say it's within the addict's personal control to give up the addiction, is a simplification of the problem. Although some strong-minded people have simply given up their addiction, I suspect the majority need some kind of treatment to solve their problem.

In order to treat the addiction you have to understand it.

John-Pierre - I totally agree with you. An illness is a disease you catch or a degenerative condition/Cancer/MS etc.
An addiction is a personal problem, not an illness. Many people do manage to overcome addictions, with as stated, help & support. What's next - greed, poverty, laziness being called illnesses - to be "cured"?

if it's laziness, then boy am I seriously ill!

Addiction is an illness and there are many different types. How many of those people arguing against it have ever been "addicted" to something ?

Bear in mind addictions can take many forms, drugs (alchohol,smoking and chocolate included), computers (yes some people are addicted to computer games and have destroyed their lives) and even shopping.

Whilst some people don't care about their addictions others do and do "try" to correct it. Some of those people fail. Is it their fault. Not necessarily. Labelling ALL addicts as a single grouping as isn't the key to solving anything. It is like brushing the dirt under the carpet. Unfortunately it is a sign of the times and society. There is no one easy solution. We should encourage those who wish to help these people as they often have a really hard time. Imagine helping someone off drugs only for them to go back after a period of time.

QUOTE
It's an illness. Mostly you need help and support to overcome your addiction.
An addiction is a personal problem, not an illness. Many people do manage to overcome addictions, with as stated, help & support. What's next - greed, poverty, laziness being called illnesses - to be "cured"?

Quite a few addictions in this country - petty minded "Ordnung", eco-fascismus, driving fat cars, smoking. You`d need a whole battery of therapists to deal with them all.

and I agree with the remark about it all starting with smoking. I think all the cigarette machines on the streets of this country should be removed for a start. As for legalising cannabis in the UK as they are thinking of doing, Im against it. Keep it banned, and ban tobacco as well.

This has run and Run
Why dont we split

50% can set up a vigilante mob and wipe out the Zombie flesh eaters

50% can try and be nice to them give them money and blame it on there past lifes

Lets see what would be more succesful

If you give them money it only encourages them. Its like feeding the pidgeons. If you feed them they multiply and it makes the problem worse.

Yes people have problems, but begging is not the solution, its part of the problem.

And re my remark about canabis and tobacco. Isnt it ironic that the british government is planning to ban smoking in pubs, yet at the same time is talking about legalising cannabis? Its all drugs and Im anti-drug.

Banning smoking in pubs: go for it !!!
At last someone is doing something against second hand smoking.

Maybe they will ban drinking in pubs too

This is a really interesting thread. I know I haven’t been on here for a while but I became a bit fed up with the cliquey club stylo of some of it’s posters. Been monitoring it for a few weeks and decided I’d post something again when an interesting thread appeared and not some childish “sarcastic� post as per usual. (Oh, I am bitter!)

Anyway, Frankfurt scum, junkies etc. Interesting points raised. Yes, The HBF and surrounding area is a magnet for Junkies and it’s a little shocking to say the least to see them smacked out of their tiny brains. I feel sometimes sorry for them but mostly I couldn’t give a toss what happens to them. I also know that junkies couldn’t give a toss about anyone else except themselves and Mickey that is a truly horrible experience you and your family have been through with your brother.

I don’t think there is any solution to the problem but the difference is here in Germany most people turn a blind eye to it. They are maybe angry but just don’t let it get to them.
In the U.K though a junkie lying in some public place injecting themselves just wouldn’t be tolerated. I know it’s hypocritical when we allow fights in pubs, scallies mouthing off at people, public puking and all the other things we excel in.
I know in Liverpool that any smackhead lying on some street corner in view of everyone injecting would be beaten to a plup in a very short space of time. It’s a dangerous place to be a junkie ‘cos once people find out where you live, there is no shortage of vigilante young blokes who delight in a bit of casual violence to let out there own frustrations by targeting crack heads
Whether it’s right or wrong I dunno. I do admit though that it’s horrible seeing some anorexic junkie jaking up into their toes or whereever. I restrain myself from wanting to beat them up as well. I’d still live anyday in Frankfurt than any other U.K. city.

Then maybe the germans need to take onboard the idea of "zero tolerance"...

It does get very tedious having to run the gauntlet of these freaks every time you go through the hauptbahnhof and its environs.

Still its not as bad as Berlin. There you get accosted by hoodies at the entrances to the u-bahn, as well as having to endure their whiney voices (usually with an anorexic hound on a piece of string (never a proper dog lead). It used to be "Haste eine Mark?" . Wonder what they say now "Haste ein Euro" doesnt have quite the same ring to it somehow.

I remember an episode of "The New Statesman" , a brit tv comedy parodying an obnoxious young yuppie turned tory politician played by Rik Mayell. Coming out of tory HQ he`s accosted by a whining, yet polite, beggar "excuse me mate do you have 5p?" To which comes the irate reply: "Of course I have 5p! What a stupid question!!"

My my, isnt this all so serious.

New theme - isn't Willy cute?

Do you like cute willys?

Oh no, were not swerving off to that topic again are we ???

Here's an idea - pay the druggies the same as a top-flight footballer.

yeah - I agree !!, but what's the difference ?? Don't all top-flight footballers take drugs ???

nice one

Begging is another story and it amazes me how many Germans quite happily give money to a "beggar" on the street without thinking of what they are doing. I have seen some of these "beggars" pack up at the end of the day and get their mobile out to call home, others you know are going to just spend the money on whatever they are addicted to, be it drugs or alchohol. Is begging legal in Germany or is it just that the police turn a blind eye to it ?

This may be a trifle controversial but I agree pretty much with this article.

"It is often stated that illicit drugs are "bad, dangerous, destructive" or "addictive," and that society has an obligation to keep them from the public. But nowhere can be found reliable, objective scientific evidence that they are any more harmful than other substances and activities that are legal. In view of the enormous expense, the carnage and the obvious futility of the "drug war," resulting in massive criminalization of society, it is high time to examine the supposed justification for keeping certain substances illegal.

Media focus on the "junkie" has generated a mistaken impression that all uses of illegal drugs are devastated by their habit. Simple arithmetic demonstrates that the small population of visible addicts must constitute only a fraction of the $150 billion per year illegal drug market. This industry is so huge that it necessarily encompasses a very large portion of the ordinary population who are typically employed, productive, responsible and not significantly impaired from leading conventional lives. These drug users are not "addicts" just as the vast majority of alcohol users are not "alcoholics."

Read source article

Agree largely with you Eric - they are down to classification, by whom - the Government, or medical profession, or the upper classes etc etc. (& yes I did do some sociology at school (failed - is that good or bad - but then I was the only boy in the class :$ )). There is evidence that even some Class 3 drugs cause permenant disconnection of some brain neuron connections. Anyone know if alcohol/nicotine has similar documented results?

I feel that addiction is a behavioural problem rather than an "illness". It can be overcome by therapies (medication & psycological) but even when "cured" a will is still required not to revert.

(Yes - assertiveness classes too)

PS. Alien made me rant this (see Hello...is anybody there...? thread)

Damn it, she's still cute, isnt she?

QUOTE Agree largely with you Eric - they are down to classification, by whom - the Government, or medical profession, or the upper classes etc etc. (& yes I did do some sociology at school (failed - is that good or bad - but then I was the only boy in the class blush.gif )).

Its good - at least youve got an ology!

The obligation to keep certain substances from the public is not justified by what those substances do to the people who use them, but rather what the people who use them do to the public.

People who are addcited to heroin, speed, etc. cause great harm to society in financial, social and 'quality of life' terms.

We can debate what the best way of protecting society is (banning their use and punishing the users or quarentining their use, and hopefully effects, to a confined area).

The 'War on Drugs' is certainly of questionable value and has been an unquestionable failure, but the, uh, 'Pro-Drugs' lobby (not sure what they like to be called) overextends its points with claims like the ones the Vicar noted. Sorry, but heroin and crack are a hell of a lot worse than beer, and claiming that they are not makes one look like a moron. Their use also has an effect far beyond those who use them, and that is why there is an obligation not to allow them to be injected freely at the central train station.

Well the same can certainly go for beer too! How many yobs do we have on the streets of Britain on a Friday and Saturday night because of alcohol?!

But they don't break into my house and steal my stereo to buy beer.

I never said that alcohol use/abuse doesn't have an effect on communities. My point is that pretending that there is no diference between herion and beer is, well, dumb.

I see Northen Lass has beaten me to it. So I'll moreorless repeat her point.

Alcohol has a far greater negative influence on society than heroin or crack. Alcohol related deaths, crimes and accidents are far higher than herion or crack.

If drugs were legal you probably wouldn't have drug addicts breaking into your house.

Sorry I've got more to say. Got an urgent wedding to do. Back in a sec...

Only because the number of people who drink alcohol is far higher. If the same number of people who drink alcohol also used herion or crack, I dare say our species would not last more than a couple more generations.

You would, because they still need to get the cash to be able to buy the drugs ...

ditto far-lands.

The point is not that herion is so expensive that you have to steal my stereo to afford it. On the contrary, herion, speed and crack are depressingly cheap. The point is that if you use these substances you find it rather difficult to hold down a regular job to support your habit. You then have to find 'alternative' means of financing your addiction. This is regardless of the drugs' legality and is what I mean by 'effects on society'.

Oh, I do like a good wedding.

Anyway where were we? Ah yes...

I read somewhere that it's very seldom that some dies only with herion in their system. Mostly it's a mixture of drugs including high levels of alcohol.

By making herion legal you would take drugs out of the hands of the drug dealer. (Who are the real cunts as the bishop would say.) Most deaths from herion occur due to infected needles, impurities and overdoses etc. These could be easily avoided.

You could set the price of herion so you wouldn't have to steal Ami's stereo to pay for your habit. You could have a regular job which can pay for your drug use. Of course, you'd need strict controls on the sale of it.

Above of all, educaction is the most important thing. Tell the kids the truth about drugs. Tell them what will happen to them if they take drugs. If you say "take ecstasy and you'll die" it's not the truth and the kids won't believe you. A lot of kids take ecstasy now and you have to let them know the truth about the drug, so they can better protect themselves. If my children do take ecstasy, when they are older and free to make their own decisions. I hope they will be informed about the dangers and can buy the drug from a safe source. And not from the drug dealing scum we have at the moment.

I agree that herion and crack are more dangerous than beer. The question is, is making them illegal an effective way to combat the use of them. The answer quite clearly is no.

Please note it's herOIn

I agree with 90% of what you're writing, Vicar. What I don't agree with is the fantasy that if you only legalise these very dangerous drugs we will be living in a wonderland.

How, may I ask, is the addict who today is unable to hold down a regular job because he is too strung out going to do so simply because his habit is now legal? Go check out the 'Junkie Park' in Zürich or the seedier parts of Amsterdam and test that theory out. I know herion is not legal in those places, but it might as well be.

You're dead right about education, though. I was taught that if I smoked a joint it was just a matter of time until I was peeling myself because on my bad acid trip I thought that I had become an orange. I'm not making this up, our teacher actually told us this.

As for most deaths being from secondary effects, what do I care what the junkie actually dies from? My issue is not what someone does to himself, rather the effect of that person's actions on the rest of us. Does he die from a contaminated needle or an overdose? Who gives a shit. I want my stereo back.

There already are strict controls - so strict that it's illegal.

This is something that really gets my back up that it's presumed that the higher percentage of alkies and junkies come from broken homes...what a heap of crap! There is just as high a percentage of your hoity toity crowd as well...is just that they not out robbing stereos because the old trust fund is supporting the habit.


People might not choose some "unfortunate circumstances" but as was said before they can choose whether to take drugs or not. Everybody at some point in their lives hits a bad patch, whether their fault or not, that is certainly no excuse to turn in to an alky or a druggie. You can choose to get off your arse and bring yourself up out of the gutter or you can wallow in self pity and and start sticking needles in yourself or knocking a few bottles of paint stripper down your neck...but that is nothing to do with the circumstance you find yourself in..it's to do with that person being a weak minded selfish twat.


Well, obviously I am dumb to ...because I don't see the difference...the end result of both addictions is the same. Obviously if your passing through the train station...someone shooting heroine is going to look a lot worse than someone drinking a can of xxxx but if you look deeper, the devastation to families is just as bad for both addictions..but just because one is "legal" it seems to make it more acceptable!!!

Next time you want a drink, try some herion instead. Then, after a few times, see if you can stop taking it as easily as you can stop having a drink.

Really? Seriously? You don't see the difference? Let me try to explain it:

I will drink a glass of wine with dinner tonight. This will not have an effect on my family, society, my work, anything. I and the vast majority of people who consume alcohol are able to contol our consumption. The same cannot be said for drugs like speed. The end result is not the same.

On occasion I drink a little more than I probably should. The result is that I don't feel too great the next day and I take it easy. This is true not only of me but of, again, the vast majority of people who consume alcohol. Again, the same cannot be said for drugs like heroin. The end result is not the same.

I, like most people who drink alcohol, do not spend most of my time trying to figure out where my next beer will come from. Again, the same cannot be said for drugs like crack. The end result is not the same.

For the alcoholic who destroys his family and ends up in the gutter there may not be much of a difference to using heroin, and in that case the end result is the same, but for all of us who are able to drink alcohol responsibly, the difference is huge.

You're all heart

However, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Let me try to explain:


Just because one addiction takes longer to get a hold than the other doesn't make the end result any less devastating, and I was talking about the overall long term result.

And I don't agree that the vast majority of people can control their drinking...I would say a vast majority think they can.

Have you ever bothered delving into the amount of drink related incidents. Drink driving, domestic violence, neglected children, abused children, the list is bloody endless...and a lot of the time these incidents are caused by people thinking they are in control of their drinking.

So when old Joe Bloggs has a little more to drink one night than he should have and climbs in to his car to drive the next morning still over the limit and kills little Johnny on his way to school...I take it he's in control is he...and have u any idea how common that actually is!!!

I'll quote my previous post:


Of course there are far more drink related social ills, the number of people who drink alcohol eclipses that of those who unject heroin.

The point is that the proportion of people who use heroin that cause major social problems is far higher than the proportion of people who drink that are a menace to society. You're right, there are a number of alcoholics who neglect their children, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that the proportion of heroin addicts who neglect their children is rather a lot higher.

And thats only in Ireland...my apologies to the Irish here...but it's all I could find in such short notice

shame about the eye though. Must have hurt.

Let's see what these numbers tell us. I'm going to make some guesses. If you disagree with my numbers, go ahead and change them and see how much it affects the conclusions.

What is the population of Ireland? about 5 million?

That gives us an adult population of let's say 4 million.

Of that 4 million how many consume alcohol? I'm tempted to say damn near all of them, but I'll go with 3.5 million.

So we have 300,000 hospital visits annually, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of those are repeat visits. Let's say we're talking about 150,000 people here, although I'm inclinded to say that the number is smaller than that.

So, we have 150,000 people out of 3.5 million who consume alcohol. That's about 4%.

Go ahead and adjust those numbers as you see fit. I'm only guessing here, but I'm pretty sure the percentage of heroin, speed and crack users who put a strain on Ireland's public services is far higher.

I never wrote that alcohol use/abuse is without its social ills. What I wrote is that to claim that it is 'as bad' as heroin is absurd.

Before I comment can you also then get me the figures of the people that take speed, cocaine, weed, crack, heroine etc that don't become addicted just to make it fair.

I am saying once you are addicted to whatever the hell it is...drink or drugs the result is the same.

There are probably a lot more people then u think that take drugs but don't get addicted...but obviously its not common knowledge because it's illegal. Your mates might say "oh I had a great pint last night" but they aren't going to say "Oh I had a great line last night are they".


Err...no you didn't... the words "dumb" and "moron" came into what you actually said.

No. I can't. You can use this fact to rubbish my argument, but until the Britboard wants to pay me as a research assistant, I'm afraid I don't have time to look up those figures now.


Fair point, but I'm pretty sure my mates aren't using heroin.


Yes, as in it is dumb to say that beer is as bad as heroin. And I stand by that. That is a dumb statement. Patently so. I also wrote that one looks like a moron when making such a comment. How does that conflict with my writing "What I wrote is that to claim that it is 'as bad' as heroin is absurd." Looks pretty consistent to me.

My apologies I presumed you knew everything there was to know and that you had already researched the subject.

I'm not trying to rubbish your argument I'm just putting another view across...if that makes me dumb or a moron...then so be it.

Saying a statement is absurd is a lot different that calling someone a moron for saying it...is it not?

Andrea, I never claimed to know everything about the subject. I was only expressing a view that I don't find terribly controversial: that beer is not as bad as heroin.

I also never called you dumb or a moron. In fact, those words appear in my posts before you ever posted on the subject. Even then, I wrote that it is a dumb argument to say that beer is as bad as heroin and that such an argument makes one look like a moron. Those comments were made in the abstract as a response to an article that the Vicar posted and were never directed at anyone, and certainly not anyone who had as of that time not even posted. However, if anyone finds those comments offensive, I apologize nevertheless.

You're entitled to your opinion. I happen to think that it is an opinion that is absurd, to use your prefered jargon.

Back to the issue at hand, I don't know if you have children, but if you do (and if you don't you can just pretend), what would concern you more coming from their mouths: 'Mom, I had a pint last night' or 'Mom, I shot up last night'?

Honestly now, which would you find more disturbing?