Being denied the vote in Germany

Does it strike anyone else as downright undemocratic and a denial of basic human rights that we brits and other EU country residents in Germany arent allowed to vote in the upcoming national election here in Germany?

They let us vote in municipal and Land elections, but not in national ones! Why is that? Is it because the municipal and Land affairs are considered unimportant compared to the national ones. If so, then that seems a bit cynical. We can vote in the EU parliament elections but not in the national German one!. By contrast as I understand it, Germans resident in the UK are allowed to vote in UK elections. So why not vice-versa.

Please dont answer with the one about "because you aren`t German". We live in a globalised world, We have something called the EU, which allows you to live and work in other countries to the one you were born in. Just imagine!! And, we even have the Euro - no national currencies anymore.

That reminds me of the old 19th century "of course women can`t have the vote - politics is for men, not for women". Or the medaeval - "voting is only for (male) property owning householders, or people who live in cities, not for the peasants in the countryside" - who dont need to bother themselves with politics.

I understand there are currently some 18 million or so people who are resident in EU countries outside their own. In the year 2005 most of them still being denied their basic democratic right. We are allowed to live and work here and elsewhere in the EU, are resident here and we pay tax here. Have they not heard of "No taxation without representation". The Americans staged a revolution against the British over just such an issue!

Its a basic human right we are denied. If I cant have a say in who is to be Bundeskanzler, then why not just have a dictatorship?! Because its a dictatorship as far as Im concerned!

So maybe we shouldnt bother with politics either. Just put your trust in the Führer - and dont worry your little head about wanting to have a vote!

Nice rant rick

I'm allowed to vote in England, thats fine with me. I understand marginally more about english politics than german.
Also I don't like the idea that 100million people from another country can come
into another country and determine its politics. There may not be many brits here, but there are large numbers of other nationalities here who could sway the vote one way or another, if they were in the EU.

just my thoughts.
Neil

So let me get this straight. You don't think you should have the right to vote for the government who is going to collect your taxes, educate your child, provide for your retirement etc..?
You would rather vote for the government of a country a few hundred miles away in which you happened to be born or grow up in but has no say over the day-to-day running of your life at the moment.

where did you read that

Rick, if you go to Hamburg mabe you can find a ship unloading tea and throw it all into the harbour in protest

When I moved to Germany it was by my own free will, I could have stayed in UK and exercised my vote there (in fact, I still can - and will, as soon as I find somebody worth voting for). But I decided to move to Germany for five years, and now Switzerland, and I'm quite happy to give up my right to vote in the national elections of my host country in return for certain benefits that I wouldn't get in the UK, for example, an efficient public transport system and pubs that don't kick you out at 11pm (or midnight as I believe it will soon be).

"No taxation without representation" is only a just cause to fight for if you don't have a choice, and as expats, most of us do have a choice - we can vote with our feet. If you don't like the regime of your host country then either return to your native country or go and find a country that you do like.

I believe that in most countries, after you have lived there for a certain period of time, you can apply for citizenship and the right to vote, so if you're particularly keen to exercise your democratic right then just hang in there until you qualify for citizenship!

I don't know if any of you remember but I posted a long time ago after similar posts. I sent a complaint to the EU Parliamentary Ombudsman about this exact issue. For exactly the same reasons some of you have given again (taxation without representation, etc., etc.).

It was lodged under a clause that EU governments cannot discriminate against permanent residents (citizens of other EU states) on the grounds of nationality. I argued that disenfranchisement was based entirely on citzenship (because voting in national elections is reserved exclusively for German citizens), so Germany was in breach of that EU law.

I got a letter back a couple of months ago saying basically that this issue is not within the area of competence of the European Parliament. National election laws remain the domain of national governments.

In other words, if you want a change, contact the Kanzleramt in Berlin. However, you probably stand even less chance of getting this changed with a CDU/CSU government than with an SPD one... and you stand a snowball's chance in hell with an SPD government. Since you do not have a (national) vote anyway, they are not upsetting any of their constituents by not changing the law. Therefore they have absolutely no incentive and they have more pressing laws to get through parliament in the next umpteen sessions anyway.

That's not really a solution, is it?

This could be a racist thing... i mean we have to pay into the system but cant vote. although i had a card to go and vote, they got it wrong

QUOTE: Also I don't like the idea that 100million people from another country can come
into another country and determine its politics. There may not be many brits here, but there are large numbers of other nationalities here who could sway the vote one way or another, if they were in the EU.

You "dont like the idea that 100million (where do you get that figure from?!) people from another country can come into another country and determine its politics". Well in that case everyone in the world who is living and working (or retired, or studying, or whatever) in another country to their own better all just go back to their country of birth and stay there. Better still, stay in the town or village you were born in, dont move around and complicate things at all.

Doesnt wash. Politics and democracy cant be denied to people on the premise that "they could sway the vote one way or another". Say Im an SPD supporter. Should we ban the vote to CDU people, on the basis that they might sway the vote?

Hi Hannah,

My German partner had the right to vote in the last but one British election as he was resident in Islington for a three years. If you pay council tax in a borough because you are resident there, you are sent an electoral return shortly before the election and following completion of this, you are sent a polling card.

No, they choose to stay in that country, and therefore should abide by the laws/rules layed down in that country without wanting to change it. I didn't say that they should not live there. If they want to influence the direction a country is going then they should change their nationality to that of the country they want to change.

But thats the "Vote with your feet" attitude...in other words: "like it or lump it". On that basis nothing in the world would ever get challenged or get changed! "Abide by the rules without wanting to change them"!!! Sounds like ideal fodder for a dictatorship to me. Just the sort of docile people Adolf wanted as subjects.

Oh for goodness sake
are you a Guardian reader
If you want to vote stop whining and apply for citizenship.
(and if you haven't lived here 5 years yet then use the time to organise your own political party for when you are a citizen)

How about
"The Freedom From Oppression From Those Nasty Bad Germans Party"
oder
"You Just Hate Me Cos I'm A Brit Don't You Party"
or even
"The Nobody Loves Me Everybody Hates Me I Think I'll Go And Eat Worms Party"

EDIT One more smart arse adolf jibe matey!!!
I'm not suprised they won't let you vote

I seem to have opened a can of worms here

Why should "citizenship" be the issue. Should bavarians refuse the vote to say people from Hessen?
Point is, we live in the EU. Where national "citizenship" is less and less important.

then change your nick to rick_GB

thanx, Debbie. I did not know this :$

QUOTE: My German partner had the right to vote in the last but one British election as he was resident in Islington for a three years. If you pay council tax in a borough because you are resident there, you are sent an electoral return shortly before the election and following completion of this, you are sent a polling card.

Looks like we brits are more pro-european than we thought!

Change my nick from rick_de to rick_gb... well, being a Guardian reader (NOT!) actually more a pro-european integrationist... Should change it to rick_eu.

well somehow you have to make up for all the other things which you refuse to accept

yeah but there are still protests going on against the euro...

Neilg I quite agree... only another 10 years living in Switzerland and I'll be able to vote...yippee!!

But why are we getting so het up about voting anyway? Is it really that effective?

Does the electorate of a western civilised country really have the power to change things these days?

- Your choice of party to vote for is extremely limited, to stand a chance of getting something changed you can normally only vote for one of three parties, and it is extremely unlikely you will find a party that supports all of your views.

- You can rant and rave as much as you like, even organise protests with 100.000 people, but your combined voice will be a mere whisper in comparision to the Blue-Chip CEO who has a quiet word in the ear of the Chancellor/Prime Minister to say "Change the tax laws to favour me or I'll close down all my factories in this country and outsource everything to China".

- Once your chosen party does get into power, how many of it's election promises does it actually keep...10%? may be 20% if you're lucky. Even governments don't have the power to change all that much, they're too busy trying to keep the country afloat on a day to day basis.

- Most of the governments in Europe are mainstream centre parties, the policies of Labour, Conservatives & LibDem in the UK are not radically different, it's not like we have a large communist or facist party to worry about. Over time, this has led to the electorate becoming apathetic, people don't bother voting because they think that whoever gets in power will run the country in pretty much the same way as the previous government... and on the whole, they are right.

The only way to have an effective electorate is for the people to be involved in the day to day dcisions of government, and the only way to do that is to have referendums on practically every decision. I would like to see a society where at least a proportion of the voting power in parliament (e.g. 650 parliamentary votes and another 650 votes directly (and proportionally) representing the votes from the public) is given directly to the people and I can come home in the evening, flick on my PC, log in and cast my vote on the days referendums: "Do you think the UK should declare war on Norway? Please vote Yes, No or Abstain"

If you really want to change things then go into politics, otherwise, just make the best of it (not lump it) and get on with life, life's too short to get stressed about politics.

Too right!

True. The political system actually offers people amazingly little choice anyway - just two main parties plus a small handful - at most half a dozen little ones. Compare that with all the choice we have in the market economy - just consider the auto market: countless competing makes and models.

To use a cliche "at the end of the day, it doesnt matter who gets in"!!

As regards online referendums - we are already seeing those, eg with N-TVs online telephone polls. I wouldnt mind betting that in 20-30 years time, maybe even earlier, we might be deciding all major issues by mouse click and have done away with the current voting system altogether.

Good or bad? - Discuss!

or become a 'Blue-chip CEO'

I'm working on it Loopy... it's just taking a bit longer than I thought it would !!

I'm going to sit on the fence on this one and say...Good and Bad.

Good because we, the people, can wrest control away from the often corrupt professional politicians and have a more direct say in the affairs of our countries.

Bad because the majority of the electorate are unfortunately neither educated nor informed enough to make decisions that affect the lives of millions.

For example, how many people in UK vote Labour because "My father voted Labour his whole life and if it's good enough for him then it's good enough for me" or Conservative because "my family have always voted conservative... besides, Daddy would disown me if I voted liberal...isn't that right Camilla?"

Unfortunately, political education in many countries is left up to the families, and many young voters have already been brainwashed by the time they get the chance to vote in their first general election. They have never been exposed to the arguments of "the other side". perhaps the right to vote should only be given to those who attend a short (impartial) course on politics and government.

And then there`s the question of who gets which mouse clicks - and how many mouse clicks. Quite apart from the issue of whether or not they have german citizenship or not in the first place. And if you dont have german citizenship, sorry - no mouse clicks for you!

But by then maybe this outdated concept of national citizenship will be gone, along with increasing globalisation, virtualisation and so on. We should be able to shop and choose our "citizenships" in virtual reality space online!

Why should I have to change my nationality to vote for a government which is spending my tax money? Sorry, I tend to agree, we need a Hamburg tea-party here!

Ok, I believe the law has recently changed so that you can now have dual nationality in Germany if you are a citizen of a country which allows Germans to have dual nationality. But that is guaranteed to cost a small fortune and is no solution for somebody who has only been here for a year (I believe you have to have been here for eight years), but still has to pay taxes!

yep, that's what I think too. Bad enough that loads of ppl seem to vote for somebody cuz he just looks more handy or don't, because he looks ugly. I only can imagine how it would be, if I'd move to a foreign country but I would understand, if they would not let me vote right away. And if this means, I'll lose my right to vote in "my own" country I think I would not be happy with this aswell cuz I might go back again some day.

The Germans themselves aren't even allowed vote in a referendum in their own country...

..or in any other country for that matter.


Like your average German understands it ...

I pay my taxes, I'm from a EU country, I deserve to have the right to vote. Think I'm going to go chain myself to the railings somewhere.

The Bundestag is a national parliament. It is responsible for welfare of German nationals. If you are not a German national, it is not responsible for you, and therefore you are not allowed to vote for it. The parliament in Westminster is responsible for you. It fulfils (sort of) this responsibility by setting up embassies and consulates, just as there are German embassies and consulates in other countries. If you want to vote for the Bundestag, then you implicitly give up your right to assistance from the UK government. You do this by changing your citizenship.

You are allowed to vote in local elections (although I am not) because local councils are responsible solely for the people living in that area. It is a different responsibility from the national parliament.

You are allowed to vote in European Parliament elections because the EP is responsible for all citizens of European countries (of which you are one). Again, a different thing.

The German Bundestag is charged with representing Germans living in Germany and Germans living abroad. The House of Commons is charged with representing UK citizens living in the UK and abroad. That is why you can vote for the House of Commons and not the Bundestag.

what is an average German? Does somebody who moves into a country understand it more? Or when? After a week, 3 months...3 years???


ok vote in Germany and lose your right to vote in GB, or do you want both?

If I live and work in Germany why would I want to vote in the UK? I just want to vote where I live and pay taxes. If I moved back to UK I would expect to vote there and not Germany. Makes sense really.


The same as the average Brit except he speaks German and doesn't binge drink and puke so much.

My point is that I probably understand the German system better than most Germans eg I had to explain to the in-laws what the Vertrauensfrage was all about.
Being foreign and being politically ignorant are not the same thing.

Plus the FDP need my vote.

According to what he told me the other day, Herr j-m will be voting for them...

I dont think I am more stupid than the average german and I get your point
So you live here, vote for somebody who stays in the "Amt" for 4 years, and in 6 months you'll move somewhere else. Does this make sense?
Ok you wont do this prolly but maybe others. So how will you "draw a line". If you have the right, everyone has to have the right then

QUOTE:The German Bundestag is charged with representing Germans living in Germany and Germans living abroad. The House of Commons is charged with representing UK citizens living in the UK and abroad. That is why you can vote for the House of Commons and not the Bundestag.

So all the 15 million or so non-germans - the millions of turks and other people, (who used to be called guestworkers) in Germany, who reside and work here, and have done for years, decades in many cases, many of whom have also been born here, have effectively no national representation, no say, no recourse?? That cant be true. Or if it is then: sehr schlecht!!

You're right Rick, it can't be true (becasue it isn't). All of those Turks who were born in Germany have the option of voting here, too. Even those who were not born here, if I am not mistaken, can now apply for citizenship, and with that comes the vote.

What you're complaining about is not a voting issue, it is a citizenship issue. I agree that citizenship should be made easier, but I don't believe that non-citizens should have the right to vote (because we are technically subjects of a foreign sovereign).

Zeitgeist: It's much more modern to set fire to yourself these days.

Thank you the voice of bloody reason at last

OT :$
Ami, you're sure your a real Ami? You mostly don't sound like one to me *applauds*

QUOTE: What you're complaining about is not a voting issue, it is a citizenship issue. I agree that citizenship should be made easier, but I don't believe that non-citizens should have the right to vote (because we are technically subjects of a foreign sovereign).

We are technically subjects of a foreign sovereign! Then how come we`re not paying our taxes to a "foreign sovereign", but here in Germany. Surely your own sovereign and master should be the one to pay your dues to. All seems cock-eyed to me!

Seems to me the justifications for this whole citizenship thing are resting on rickety ground, particularly nowadays where we have things like the EU, freedom of movement, country of work and residence. We are seeing more and more movement of people throughout the world, more and more flexibility of employment and business. These notions of fixed citizenship and being a "subject" are becoming less and less tenable in practice.

Incidentally, I also object to the habit here of defining people who were born in Germany as "turks" or "Ausländer". A german said to me once: "you also have a lot of Ausländer in England". To which I replied, "well, no we have very few Ausländer. If you`re referring to the non-white population - being PC here, lets not call them "black" or "coloured" ;-) - then they are mostly british citizens, not Ausländer at all!". But thats another issue. Dont get me started on that!

That's lovely, Rick. I happen to agree. I used 'Turks' because that was the term that you used yourself:


You are not paying taxes to a foreign sovereign (UK) because you are employed and live in Germany. You are, however, still a British citizen, and unless and until you change this, you will be allowed to vote in elections for the HoC and not the Bundestag.

By holding a British passport, you swear allegience to the UK. Because the German government, elected through the Bundestag, sets policies for those who swear allegience to Germany, you are not allowed to vote for it.

It's a simple prospect. If the governments of the UK and Germany have a dispute, it is nonsensical to have a German government elected by people who swear allegience to the UK.

There are very many Americans who live and work, and are residents of Germany. If we had been able to vote in the last election, we could have swayed the election to the CDU, who may have supported the war in Iraq. Does it seem fair to you that German foreign policy could have been changed because of the votes of non-citizens whose interests are not neccessarily those of Germany?

If I have no stake in the outcome of German elections then why do I need to pay taxes here?

The German government requires that I pay taxes because I use roads, schools, etc. in Germany. This is fair. I pay to receive a benefit of whatever kind. So I am not a freeloader in Germany.

The German government does not however give me any choices (i.e. a vote) in how my money should be spent. How it is distributed to schools, roads, etc. is a party political issue over which I have no influence.

In other words, they take my money as if I were a citizen and had a stake in Germany but do not treat me as a citizen by removing any ability to influence how that money should best be spent (by not allowing a vote). If I only had to pay taxes to my Kreis budget then that would be fine, but they want their cake and eat it too.

You should get a vote in whichever country you pay your taxes (so this is your country of permanent residence).

@Ami

You lose the right to vote in the UK, even though you are still a UK citizen, if you do not live there for a number of years (forget how many). So UK voting is based not only on citizenship but also on residence (i.e. being a taxpayer).

Ami. I can understand the point you are making. You`re citing the legal definition of the situation as it stands, if I follow you correctly. But I still don`t agree with it. I think voting should be based on residence - no taxation without representation!

Re your point about not paying taxes to a foreign sovereign (UK) because you are employed and live in Germany. I don`t see that this must necessarily follow, given this citizenship/allegiance to sovereign thing. Why shouldnt your coutnry of origin have total claim to your tax, at least at the national level. Pay your local council taxes in Germany, and the rest to UK! In fact, you do pay (all) taxes to the UK if you are resident in Germany for less than half the year. So, if you`re resident for more than half the year, you pay taxes to Germany. So, shouldnt you get the vote in return? I say yes!

talking of picking and choosing and swapping citizenships as and when it suits your personal circumstances (and not being limited by where you happen to have been born). Hasnt Rupert Murdoch done just that? An australian by birth, didnt he become british when that suited him, and then a US citizen when that was more advantageous.. maybe he`s now an aussie again, or a citizen of Togoland or somewhere, if their taxes are lower..

I think the countries of the world should create a competing and free market in "citizenships" and then see how we get on!

rick

That was what I was saying. When you live and work some place for > 6 months (18x days) you are then designated as having residence, eg in Germany, and are then subject to German tax rules.

My position -> You get the vote in whichever country you are paying taxes, but qualify this by, for example, a reasonable amount of time, eg length of a parliament, eg 4 years successively paying tax.

This highers the bar a little, so that you don't get a vote immediately you start paying tax because you may not be here to face the consequences of any vote you make.

By setting a limit of say 4 years, then it is clear you already were affected by German politics for some time, have a stake in German politics and (after having been here for 4 years) will probably remain (since 4 years is longer than a typical temp overseas posting duration) for at least another parliamentary session. This was part of my argument in the European Parliament grievance I lodged.

rick

oops. Misread Ami as Adi... gonna have to get a new nick. :$

I'd agree if you then renounced your allegience to the UK. Like I wrote before, citizenship in the issue here, and I think German citizenship should be easier to obtain (I will certainly never get it even though my grandparents came from Germany and fled before the war). I have a problem, though, with foreign nationals electing the German parliament.

I would also have a problem with 30 million Mexicans being able to vote in American elections. I think they should be able to get citizenship more easily (and renounce their allegience to Mexico), and then no poblem. But so long as they are citizens of a foreign land, nope.

I didn't know that you lose your UK voting rights after a period of time. That's not the case in the US.

We’re going around in circles here, so I’ll make one final analogy and let someone else have the last word.

I have a wife. Her name is America. We’ve been having some problems lately. She’s a little overweight, has a bad habit of making an ass of herself in public, and has recently ‘found Jesus’. We’re actually separated at the moment. To be fair, she’s been amazingly cool about things. So long as I show up for family occasions, like Christmas, and send some money from time to time to help pay off the credit card debt we ran up, she doesn’t cause too much of a stink. And really, I think I might still be in love. I’m certainly still loyal, and still involved in any ‘family decisions.’

I also have a mistress. A cute little foreign chick named Germany. We have a pretty simple arrangement: I get what I want, and I give her gifts from time to time. It’s an easy relationship without any of the baggage I have with America. In fact, I’ve recently moved in with Germany. She’s made one thing clear, though. So long as I’m still married to America, she won’t let me have a say in decisions like what color the wallpaper should be. She says that as long as I have a home with another woman, and she doesn’t have a ring on her finger, I have no right to make decisions about her home. I guess I can accept that.

I hope that makes everything clear.