Being denied the vote in Germany

Sorry Ami, but I've got to side with those who believe that if you have been paying taxes for a significant period of time, you ought to have a say in how those taxes are spent. Or do you believe that the Boston Tea Party was totally unjustified and America really ought still to be a British colony?

Given the way the Bund is taking ever more things under its control the sop of being allowed to vote in loacal elections is a total waste of time, especially as I don't have any children, whose education would be just about the only thing still able to be affected at a local level.

I've been away from Britain for long enough that I am no longer allowed to vote there and to be honest, I can't see any reason why I should be allowed to vote there, because I have no idea at all what the state of affairs in Britain is now, so I couldn't make an informed choice anyway.

I wouldn't go as far as requiring some sort of political education or proof that you understand the issues - if you applied those standards to the nationals a significant part of both the British and German populations ought not to be allowed to vote (that's one of the problems with democracy!). After a certain amount of time, say five years, you ought to be able to help decide what is done with your tax money.

Nationality is totally irrelevant in any way shape or form.

Ami: If you`re paying your share of the rent with "Germany", then = I`d say, in that case, yes, you should have a say in which choice of wallpaper.

Likewise if I pay my share of tax in Germany, I should have my share of the vote in how its to be spent.

I too have been in Germany for a long time. I no longer have any vote in the UK - even though I am technically still a british subject. But I dont have any national vote in Germany either. Im one of the Great Disenfranchised!

Votes for Expats NOW!!

Ami,

I have an ex-wife. Her name is Britannia. We had our ups and downs and I must admit, I'd been 'playing away' with this foreign chick, Miss Germany, for some time before we separated. My wife's also had a long-time lover (Captain America) who's very much into playing with guns. Britannia and I are, of course, now separated. To be fair, she’s been amazingly cool about things. So long as I'm no longer living there she doesn't expect me to pay any of the bills. We have a long history together: grew up together; had kids, etc. so there is still have a strong attachment. She still let's me visit whenever I want and I still count as a, somewhat, slightly remote member of the family. I couldn't expect much more because I'm hardly ever there. After spending so long away from her, and not having given her any money for the housekeeping for quite some time now, I don't have any say in any 'family decisions' any more. This arrangement seems very fair to me.

My new girlfriend (Miss Germany) has been through some rough times and even though she's been around for as long as my ex-wife (actually they're distantly related), she sure looks a lot better preserved (probably that Marshall Plan diet she went on). I live with her... or should I say she lives with me, because it's me who pays for everything while she enjoys spending it. She 's the type who likes to put everything down on paper, keeps lists methodically, etc. When you deal with her you should count on a lot of paperwork. She made this huge document which I had to sign when she agreed that we could live together. It contains lots of rules and regulations. If I want something, I have to pay for it.. and through the nose. Even though I pay for everything I don't get any say in the 'household decisions'. She just presents me with this big bill every month and expects it to be paid in full. She's a pretty extravagent filly... those good looks don't come cheap. Actually, it works more like an extortion racket than a relationship but it has its benefits. Like I said, she sure is better to look at and whilst I keep paying she keeps delivering the goods (something my ex-wife didn't do very well). She tells me that if I sign another piece of paper and give her a ring and swear my allegiance to her she'll let me have a say in the way she spends our (my) money (though I doubt that she's ready to cut back on her spending habit just yet). I argue with her that we've been living together a long time now and I'm paying all the bills anyway (and have been for quite a long time now) so I should have a say in the day-to-day running of our house already. We're as good as married and these days lots of people live together without being married. I've been with her long enough and paid all her bills to show my commitment but she still refuses. This really looks like a one-sided relationship and doesn't seem very fair to me at all.

nice one Adi very well thought out.

I agree RMA nationality has nothing to do with this, i mean it is the EU. I too have been paying into the german 'funds' for 30 years!!! why should i not have a say in what happens to it without changing my nationality.

I know I said I was done commenting, but, oh, darn it to heck!

That was pretty cute Adi, and I take your and rick's points. I would just say that so long as you are married to Britannia, you are not entitled to any marrital benifits with Miss Germany. Now, if you were a polygamist that would be something different ...

Actually I'm thinking about being a bachelor again. It's much cheaper.

Ni Adi thats the spongers that take out of the benefits

but again the straight question, which nobody asked straight yet. I asked yesterday already...where would you draw the line?
After how long living here do you want to vote or do you expect the right as soon as you pay your first tax? What about ppl who only stay here for a year or so?

if we're paying tax at the full ammount, we should have full rights to vote.

Hannah. This was already answered in one of my posts.

that one yup. ok so you move to Germany, after 4 years you can vote but have to make sure, you wont leave the country within the next 4 years or how? Means you sign something that you will stay for at least 8 years?

That wouldn't be fair, my dear. After all you, as a German, have the choice to leave the country anytime after an election.

Nope. Just 4 or 5 years residence and paying taxes (i.e. not having claimed benefits).

I can be a German citizen on the day before the next election, vote, then get married and emigrate to the US the following day and spend the rest of my life outside Germany. As a German, I can be up to 25 years outside the country and still retain my right to vote here. Should such a German be allowed a vote in Germany in the next (and subsequent) elections and why?

What you've demonstrated if you're resident for 4/5 years and paid taxes is a commitment to the country and a probability that you will still be in Germany for some time to come (so continue to contribute taxes and face the consequences, etc.). As such a person you have a positive contribution to bring to the country... more than Florida Ralf (sp?), for example.

hmmm
But let's say I move to Holland for a year, vote there, then to England, vote there, go back to germany, vote here, then I'll get a job in austria, vote there ...
i dunno

Luke ... verhext!

Hannah. ... we already talked about a 'probationary period' of 4 or 5 years, not getting an immediate right to vote.
There are lots of people that would relocate once in their life (and maybe back to their home country), but far fewer people who would relocate to a different country every 4,5 or 6 years.

Also, if one of the criteria was that you didn't get a vote until you had racked up 4-5 years worth (48-60 months) of taxes then people who moved to a country to do some 'benefits shopping' would remain without a vote. So you needn't worry about being overrun by poor Africans, Asians, Turks, etc... sucking the life out of the country but still being allowed to vote.

...and poor Europeans (just for political correctness).

Luke,

Yes, absolutely... Polish tilers, Czech prostitutes, Bulgarian barmen, Romanian shepherds, ...

that was not my only point. I wonder how this can be realised and I wonder if I would want to lose my voting right in germany etc.
But like the German says: Ihr habt Recht und ich meine Ruhe

Have a nice weekend
Hannah

Hannah: you`ll never get any Ruhe as long as Im around! :-)

But have a nice weekend anyway..

Also remember if you are out of the UK for more than 10 years you lose your right to vote in the UK

I agree that people who are not from the country have no right to vote. I would not want to vote for anyone in Germany anyway

I think that I should be allowed to vote here, because I pay taxes here. I want to be able to have a say in how my money gets spent. I don't think I should have to give up my "identity" as a British Citizen to be able to vote here.

As an alternative (compromise) to not being "German" enough to vote, I am equally not German enough to be give a toss about the re-unification, so give me a rebate on Solidarity tax.

Conversely, I do not think I should be able to vote in the UK, as I don't live there, am not affected by whichever team gets in - why should I be theoretically be able to inflict my opinion on the majority of Brits who didn't vote for my team? Incidentally, for this reason I choose not to vote in any case

€nico .. is that true? So now I can't vote anywhere?

I agree with Maaph If i pay i should be able to vote.
I mean I am paying the politicians wages? He then does work for me but i cant have a say in what...

and how can this work if everyone can vote in the country where he lives? You always get angry about things like "Meldepflicht" in Germany and all our rules here and "Bürokratie". So how does it work in other countries? How do they prove who lives where since when and for how long?
I just think it's hard to manage

No i dont..

I mean after 30 years of paying into the system should i not have a say?


are you not on a list in the UK?

me? on list in UK? confused now

no i mean if you live in the UK

Bully, you are registered in Germany but my question was how it works in other countries, where they have no "Meldepflicht"

There are lists in the UK, cant remember what they are called.

huh? You are registered on a list in UK and? I am talking about that if YOU as in an "Engländer" have the right in Germany, every EU?? person in a different EU country should have the right. Or are you speaking just of Brits in Germany?

maybe I am a little blue eyed, but both the UK and DE authorities know I am here. In the digital age, this is NOT difficult ...

I just hacked the Bundes-alle-nicht-DE-Citizens-die-aber-hier-bezahlen-und-leben-und-etc-Amt system, and look what I found ...

Deutsch-komputer-formular .. wat darf er?

maaph
- steuer y/n? Y (viel)
- soli y/n? Y (will aber nix)
- wäählen y/n? N

All I need to find is the update button, and I can change the last setting myself

ok this will lead to nothing. You talk about the brits in Germany or the germans in UK which will work out maybe.
I am talking about all the other EU-countries or even non EU. Same right for everyone or not?
Whatever

Hannah I am talking about any. A brit or other living in Germany paying his German tax should be allowed to vote in Germany.

A German living in England paying his tax in England should have the right to vote in England.

The list i was talking about is if you are living in England, is it the census list? not sure

just checked mine out

Deutsch-komputer-formular .. wat darf er?

bbulldog
- steuer y/n? Y (sehr viel)
- soli y/n? Y (will wieder haben)
- wäählen y/n? Y

why is mine in red?

ok then in Holland f.e. they have to find a system first to register the ppl and register who voted.
All you get there is a stamp in your passport at the police station if you come to live there. And you dont even need it. And they dont even write it down somewhere. My bf lived there for 2 years still registered in UK and paid by a dutch firm.

is this dutch?

@Hannah - I believe the rule is simple .. if you pay tax in a country you have the option to vote there OR your land of origin (but not both). As an example, a Brit living in NL, working in DE may vote either in DE or GB .. but not NL.

It is for the voter to "prove" that he can vote, so this would mean some sort of registration.

There obviously needs some additional thought about groups like the ex-pat pensioners living it up in the South of France and drawing UK pension, but by the time the election results comes around, they are likely to be dead anyway.

I worked in Holland as contractor for 6 months. I was bombarded with forms by the agency to obtain a foreigner tax rebate. They knew I was there as well. Did your bf pay tax?

yep or they moved into a different country

ok then, good luck and that everyone will be able to vote whereever he lives soon

cheers
Hannah

So any voting in Holland means they dont know who has voted and if they have votes 60 times??? There must be lists in every country...

yup the agency knew where he lived. Good question...no clue if he paid tax.

aaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I give up

last one :$

I can live with that one and hope everyone else too.

Hannah - don't give up !!! We're not being deliberately obtuse, just playing hard to get

To clarify - what I meant was that Holland Government knew where I was .. I paid (reduced) tax.

Of course, the agency also knew where I was because I paid inflated commission !!!

Do you really think a voter will prove before hand that he can vote? no one would bother!

sorry Hannah

well i have just mailed my aunt, if anyone know she will

Yes .. if he/she wants to vote! But by "prove" (in inverted commas), I meant this could be automatic during the tax registration / welcome to DE induction, and not necessarily an extra trip.

I also think that voting should be compulsory, with fines imposed for non-exercising of ones right to vote... but that is another story (maybe).

OK maaph i understood that you meant everyone should prove that they are allowed to vote before hand.

And ... the vote should only be allowed to those who a. have right of permanent residency, so that would be after only so many years in that particular country, and b. to those who speak the country's language well enough to understand the politics!

sort of with you archie, but then everyone in Yorkshire would be excluded from voting in the UK elections !