Being denied the vote in Germany

before I met my Liverpudlian I thought west yorkshire akzent was the worst I ever heard :$

Oi watch it

but back on topic I agree that after a reasonable length of time in country, especially within the EU, permanent residents should be able to vote. Having spent more of my life in Germany than UK I now find myself without the right to vote in either country and to be honest I would like to be able to vote once in my life at least.

Actually after reading through this thread I wrote off a quick mail to the Bundestag asking for an explanation of the situation (as opposed to a simple listing of laws and paragraphs) I'll let you know if and when I get anything back.

Spot on Ami, but they aren't getting it. They want all the rights German citizenship infers without any of the responsibilities that come with it. I fail to see how that is fair or sensible.
Stop whining and go get a German passport. You only have to live in Germany 5 years if you're not German by birth or decent.

Good grief!! I didn't look at this thread for some time and people are still arguing to try to understand what is the question??

If you are EU citizen you already have a right to live and work in any other EU country. Other EU countries must not discriminate against you on grounds of nationality... kicker is, that there are a few exception clauses to this principle for national governments (voting to national parliaments remains subject to national not EU law). It's not really a question of inclusion/exclusion of foreign nationals or any question of loyalty to country (eg: Germans are not expected to swear an oath to uphold the German constitution on their 18th birthday).
It is more of an historical problem. The laws on national elections were drawn up before the EU existed and politicians are loath to change laws which affect THEM. We all know that changes to laws lag changes in society by a loooong way. Maybe there will be an update in Germany sometime - the UK allows non-nationals to vote already which is probably a result of empire/history - but I won't hold my breath.
German politicians have nothing to lose by not allowing foreign residents to vote. Unless/until they see a significant opportunity to get these people onto their side then they will not spend their time to debate and change the law.

If you aren't prepared to do national service (for those in the right age range) then get over it.
Like I said you want to take the rights part of citizenship but you don't want the responsibility part.
Its like listening to spoilt children

Alice

Germans (and Brits) DO NOT swear allegiance to their countries (unless they become members of armed forces, security services, politicians ,etc.) where there is a specific job responsibility to protect the people and territory of the country.

A UK passport does not belong to YOU. It remains the property of HM Govt.

Neither are a lot of Germans so that has little to do with the matter being discussed. Please do tell me which responsibilities I am avoiding? I cant think of any, we are discussing the fact that this goes against the spirit of the EU and an open Europe also the UK seems to manage alright by letting non-national residents vote why cant Germany?

BTW After 6 years regular and 10+ years TA service I am exempt Bundeswehr service (even if I was still a young pup)

Adi I never said you do. You have not addressed what I have written.

Fuch The UK is a bloody mess
yeah having a party whos stated aim is to turn Britain into a Muslim state run by Koranic law. Fabulous!

If you want the EU to be one big country fine. Personally I think that prospect is frightning

Germans swear to uphold the constitution and British swear allegiance to the Queen (and Her Govt) in such jobs, I know because I have done both and found them not to be contradictory

It's Fuchs, forget the s and there could be confusion.

What has that to do with voting rights within the EU? Germany has enough fruitloop far-right/left/christian etc parties of it's own, that statement has no relevance to this discussion IMO.

Sorry for getting your name wrong
I think it has every relevance.

please expand on this if you would, I'd be interested to see the reasoning.

Alice, what points? That some of us want to avoid the responsibilities of being German? Which exactly?

Ami has already covered it with an example
Adi read the above posts I'm not repeating it

but Alice since when has the US been a part of the EU? The main point with me is the fact that WE are all Europeans we can move freely and live and work where we please, why cant we also share in the responsibilities of choosing those who represent us in the part of Europe where we live. See those posts referring to non-discrimination through nationality within the EU.

Edit to add: I have no statistics but how many is "many Americans" and do you really believe that ex-pat US-citizens are in sufficient numbers here to sway an election?

I think German politics should reflect the opinions and believes of the people permanently resident here, how many of these gadzillions of Ex-pat US citizens stay here permanently and how many are on short term (<5years) contracts this would be solved in having the 5 year probation time and could in that case also be applied to non-EU citizens.

Ah Maaph you're my kind of person...


It is compulsory in Australia and people do get fined for not voting. Unfortunately, since we left Oz in 1981 "they" took us off the Electoral Roll and haven't been able to vote in an Australian election since then.

Don’t waste your time Alice, this argument has been going in circles for a while. It actually seems pretty simple to me. Voting in national elections is a right/responsibility of citizenship. Precedent for this goes all the way back to the Greeks.

The favourite argument here is that of ‘taxation without representation’. This had a nice ring for the American colonists, but remember, they were His Majesty’s subjects paying tax to His Majesty and His Majesty’s parliament. In reality, there are many people who are rightly denied voting rights despite their paying taxes. Teenagers and ex-convicts, for example. Another problem with tying voting rights to paying taxes is that you implicitly exclude those who don’t pay taxes. Once you start doing that, we might as well limit voting to landed white males.

A much more sensible solution is to see voting for a national parliament as what it is: a right/responsibility of citizenship. Citizenship is a concept that transcends ethnicity, wealth and all of the other things that divide people. It instead unites people in allegiance to the state (and, by the way, the act of obtaining a passport is an act of allegiance). If you are unwilling to take up citizenship, then you have not proven yourself committed enough to the country for whose parliament you wish to vote.

Also, this has nothing to do with the EU (as I believe their ombudsman wrote). The Treaty of Rome calls for the free movement of people. You can move all you want, you can then take up citizenship and vote, just like people from lots of other countries that are not in the EU.

As for Americans in Germany. There are 12,000 of us in Berlin alone, which is not the highest number in Germany by a long shot. The last election was decided by 6,000 votes, or at least that's what Stoiber likes to say.

But how many of these are permanent residents?

Does it matter?

It is not in Germany's interest to allow people with loyalties divided between it and another country to vote for its national parliament. Not one, not 12,000, not 100,000.

That was not the point he was making.
As you well know
It was being used to illustrate how non citizens may well wish to vote in accordance with a foreign powers best interests in direct opposition to what is best for Germany.

Your rights are NOT being violated you want to vote
prove you can speak the lingo
live here for the required time
Swear to uphold the German constitution.

Colonial Girl
Australia does (or at least it did) do the same thing, my father lived there . He could not vote because he had residency but CHOSE not to take citizenship.
That was his choice if he wanted to vote that much it was there for the taking

Ami
You are right

OK I'm off in a minute back to sunny Bonn for a well deserved long weekend. I'll try and get back to this on Monday.

Oh bugger, Weltjugendtag if I hear one "happy Catholic" singing Kum ba yah then I will go ballistic

As I said I have done this, you dont have to be a citizen to do so.

My best friend in the US is married to an English woman (I know, I tried to talk him out of it). She chose not to become a US citizen because she decided that having her British passport was more important than being able to vote in the US. She wants to remain 'British' and nor become an American. A perfectly legitimate decision, but one that comes with the consequence of not being able to vote. Simple.

Ah go on just one more.

How many German nationals are there who are entitled to vote and how many would an evil foreign state have to smuggle into Germany (5 years ahead of the master plan mind) to vote an anti-German party in? Or are you saying there are mainstream parties in Germany that work against Germany's best interests?

Of course my rights arn't being violated under the present system, however that doesn't mean that the system is right, one example how long did Germany drags it's feet with getting rid of those useless EU-Aufenthaltsgenehmigungen that went totally against the spirit of free movement within the EU?

If I have to become German to recieve my rights along with carrying out my responsibilities (those I am avoiding you still haven't mentioned!) what is the point of the EU and the open market?

I have lived in Germany as a EUROPEAN since 1991 I have no right to vote in any national elections I feel that this situaton is not right.

Recht haben und Recht kriegen...

One more time. The EU has NOTHING to do with this. The European Union is a collection of nation states. There is no such legal entity as a European citizen, only a citizen of a European Union member state.

Wow this is one long thread that has ruffled a few feathers.

I've got a german passport but have lived in England for the last 20 odd years (could get a UK passport but can't see what there is to gain), now back in Germany.

I was able to vote in the UK in May and can vote here in Germany this Sep. However, I am utilising my democratic right (in both countries) to not vote in either as I simply cannot be bothered because there is nothing worth voting for anyway.

(not sure if the above is allowed or I just slipped through the system?)

I however think that you should be allowed to vote in the country you live in and contribute to (through taxes) after you've been there for a period of time as it is obvious that you wish (through choice) to live in that country and contribute to it. I don't think that you should be forced to go all the way and change your nationality, especially in this day and age where it is easy to have more than one and/or change if you want to. (The passport you hold does not necessarily mean anything, it simply allows you to travel and lets you know which embassy you go to if in trouble abroad).

I can also see the other side of the arguement, and both side have their +ves and -ves. However this discussion is really only valid if there is actually a real choice (in either voting system), which at present there clearly is not in either Germany or the UK.

(Cue tory/labour/CDU/SPD (to a lesser extent LibDems/Green) supporter attacks)

Die Grünen and Lib dems in the same breath bloody cheek
You haven't noticed the vocal radical imams who work, pay taxes (the ones who aren't living off benefits) and preach hate towards Britain then.

Heading off topic ...

I think there actually are some substantial differences between the parties (those who liked to say it made no differnce if you voted for Gore or Bush sure learned their lesson the hard way). Problem is that they are all distasteful in their own, unique way.

Quitting time! Got to make it home in time for the football.

Alice,

I take your point. However if you go down that route then you may as well close all the borders to every country. There will always be a few (carful what I say) less mainstream members of societey who have vastly differing views/opinions and in this case I think you have to generalise for the masses.

Also the flip side of that coin per your statement would be that this arguement would not even be an issue if the extreme right (supposedly extreme patriots who want to contribute fully to their country) were in power, as no foreigners would be allowed into either country in the first place.

(It would be interesting to see who these imams vote for - given they are faced with the same lack of choice as everyone else )

The father of a German colleague of mine, who is himself British, has been an active member of the SPD for most of his time in this country, which must be around 35 years now. So not only has he paid his taxes, raised three children who are now paying into the Rentensystem, he has also paid his "Vereinsgebühr" and has shown his political direction. But he's not allowed to vote.

That's a subject which is worth a thread in its own right. I must admit to being a bit torn which way I would decide.

However, when you think about it, as the main parties vie with one another to head towards the centre (at least in appearance), with the result that increasing numbers of (potential) voters decide that there's no difference between them, so it's not worth voting anyway, maybe we're getting to the point where compulsory voting is necessary.

As far as the other arguments are concerned, we now seem to be going in circles, there are firm beliefs circulating which are not going to be changed and I think we've got to the point where we have to agree to disagree!

now that is a true brit down to the bone. Dont know why anyone would marry an american


we know for her sake

just got this in from my aunt


and she knows as she checks these things out... So that is how the brits know, which means they do have lists of who lives where but only good for that time..

Married to a former US military person myself, I know a large number of British women who married Americans and moved to the US. None of them have wanted to become US citizens, The British Passport and remaining steadfastly 'British' is far more important.
Saying that though, the US Government actually can't make you give up your UK Passport, You can renounce your British citizenship but it is not officially accepted, it just makes you a dual citizen. This doesn't work for all countries but I know the UK and Egypt are two who will allow it.

I am probably way behind here...but what the heck!!

Got from "frequently asked questions about the Electoral Roll"


So isn't that the same as Germany...

thanx Andrea
I was asking long time ago if they were sure but since they said so, I believed it (or like I said "you are right and I have meine Ruhe"


I really don't understand some of you sometimes (ok some more, some less often) but f.ex. in the London bomb threads or about foreigners in the UK (special kind of foreigners ) you get angry or moan or whine that the UK made it to easy for them to get in or stay but you don't like neither, that Germany tries to make it not to easy.

Hannah... difference is that those people are from a different culture...very different. Us northern Europeans are much more similar. Plus, we are all members of the EU... they are not...

This argument, as I and others have noted, has been going around in circles for a while. Well, congrats, Adi, you've straightened course taken it right over the edge. Could a mod please change the thread title to 'White Northern Europeans Being denied the vote in Germany', as that would be much more reflective of argument that was just made.

ok Adi, so "that one's" with a british passport are not allowed to vote in Germany but you are?

Sorry Hannah, I think you mean 'those ones'

yeah, I guess you are right :$ (ferken english language) :$

You're trying to muddy the water.

If people (whatever colour skin) are born in the UK then they go to school in the UK and, for the most part, have a British cultural upbringing (Note: the argument that the terrorists were UK citizens is a different issue. Some of them got citizenship as a result of very lax UK citizenship requirements...that is not this argument).

For people who arrive in the UK (or other EU country) from outside..and as adults... they already have a set culture/lifestyle.

Also, I placed other restrictions on qualification, such as length of stay in country, being an "EU citizen", being a taxpayer, etc.
These qualifications would mean that the 1000s of US servicemen would not sway a vote to the CDU/CSU...that 'immigrants sponging off the state' would not sway a vote to the SPD... that jobless EU citizens shopping for better social security but without working would not drain the public coffers and also get a chance to say how much money they should get in benefits, etc etc etc etc etc etc...

Lastly, my answer was to the question, was to Hannah's question about why foreigners are allowed into the UK only to bomb it...that has nothing to do with being allowed to vote in the UK.

aaaarrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I never said this

ok I better won't discuss anymore in "serious" threads where the language seems to be a problem to get my point across

have to run now anyway
Hannah

My interpretation of (see above) was that you were talking about some of us complaining about allowing people into the country when they want to bomb it...
I think we're all agreed, that the UK has a particularly stupid approach to allowing 'undesirables' into the country. However, this is a different problem.

You needn't stay out of serious debates on this board. It takes different opinions to keep a healthy board alive.

Hannah, Is the word you are looking for hypocricy?

(Once an English Language teacher - always an English Language teacher)

hypocrisy?

Teacher, heal thyself.

Yes Adi, well spotted. Go to the top of the class.

OK, I shoot myself in the head as penance.

Let's keep it lively but friendly at least...

man, what a hard work to put different quotes together

anyway

Adi
before Fuchs said (I guess it was Fuchs)

I got a bit "eyeraising" feeling about this argument, because to me this means that this "undesirables" as you call them with an EU passport will have the same rights as you want to have. So if we "let them in" as we "let you in" and they pay tax and have a residency here, then they will have to have the same right as you then to vote. I am glad myself that my bf doesn't need an Aufenthaltsgenehmigung anymore, because I know him and he wont do any harm (at least not like this "undesirables" as you call them)
You say this is a different problem but you don't say how to "solve" it
but I also was a bit upset about this statement from Fuchs, which sounded again like "this germans are always so f****** ordentlich and have to many rules and need ages to get "up to date"

Adi

yeah but if ppl don't even understand my opinion cuz of my english, even worse, they get it wrong then it's not really "fun", if I take hours and millions of posts to explain it over and over again

thanx Rebecca but I really did not mean Scheinheiligkeit, guess I meant it's a Widerspruch

@Hannah: How are things going with your in-laws-to-be anyway?