The open system in Kindergarten

Our daughters has been going to a Kindergarten for the past year that has the Offener system. This means that the children meet in the mornings in a group but are then allowed to go off to any group they please later on. This is all well and good for the older children but for the younger children tend to wander around like lost sheep and they never really have a Betreuerin who is responsible for them for the whole day.

This open system seems to be in trend over here at the moment, but we're not entirely happy with it and are thinking of looking for another more traditional Kindergarten where the children stay in one group all day.

I was wondering what experiences any of the Britboarders with children have had with the Offener System. Is it at the end of the day better or worse for smaller children?

Sounds like a load of new-fangled nonsense to me.
And this is meant as a serious comment.

they seem to be running around like headless chickens at the moment following the Pisa tests.

To some exent I can see the benefit IF the new child manages to find his/her feet .. hepls build social competence and confidence. The problem is with the shy ones, but this can be a problem in the traditional setup as well.

My two (twins boy & girl) were until last week in a single class kindergarten, and my daughter (being the loud gobby sort - like her mum) found her way into the group easily. However, my son (being a bit more reserved, like me) only managed to find a few friends, and even that took some time. He is a bit of a loner and was often doing his own thing. However, he was never unhappy, so I guess it depends on the child.

They are starting school next month, and there they have some sort of "double-year", where the new starters join existing classes. This is the first year they are doing it, so it means splitting up existing school classes to make way for the new starters. It is all very complex, and I don't really understand it yet, but when I do maybe I'll post again.

However, they have bodged it up so completely, that I see problems looming for my lad again. He will only know 1 person from Kindergarten (albeit his chosen class mate), whereas my daughter has 4 familiar faces. Also there are 2 children in her class who live in our street - in his there are none, which will cause problems for him getting home across a main road - they start and finish at different times.

The only consolation is that they have similarly messed up for all the "multiples" joining the school this year .. in total 4 pairs and 1 set of triplets!!! Something in the water evidently in '98.

We had much the same problem with our kindergarten.

We sent our son to the Kindergarten orginally because they had an english group right up to the point when he actually went there when the english teacher suddenly left. bugger.

James has been there over two years now and allthough I must say the discipline there is very good it is just a place where children are collected in the mornings and you pick them in the evening. I have no idea what they do. James says they just play.

We have changed now to a different one even though it just for one year, he has made friends there and I feel a bit sorry for the big guy.

The new kindergarten has groups but a bit tighter controled. They also have animals, two horses, two sheep, chickens and goats.

They also teach the children basics like sitting down and concentrating on one topic for a bit.

In a word, the school system here is toilet and I hope by the time James is old enough they might sort it out a bit. Or its off to Finland for us

Joe - How old is your daughter? What strikes me is that she is in a situation that she is not comfortable with and that the kindergarten is not addressing it. Also, it seems that rather than just having an "open door", and letting the child decide what she wants to do, they are encouraging them to wander. Which is pretty crap if your daughter is just happy to stay where she is!

My experience of German kindergartens and pre schools has been that there is this emphasis on "free play", which suits some children but doesn't really suit those who are shy or need direction. It would be my belief that in order for this to be a truly succesful concept, the child would need to be comfortable with all the teachers and be in an environment which is stimulating. Why would they want to go and do free play in another room when they can do it in the room they are already in with their own teacher? I have some friends who are German kindergarten teachers and they tell me that there is very little time planned for activities or group work, although I have no idea if this goes across the board.

I do work in a Montessori school - so the structure is different - but I have a class of three year olds and they sit down and take their own work and can concentrate and we can do activities such as baking together which means that the shyer ones are involved but in a more passive way. They also show work at the school assembly each week. If your daughter is not happy I would seriously consider taking her out of her current kindergarten.

I think it's very progressive that they are sending animals to kindergarten these days. Will they be offered a place at the Grundschule too?

Hi Jm.

My daughter will be 4 in August and has been going to the same Kindergarten for a year. She does seem to like the fact that she can go from one room to the next but at the beginning she found it daunting.

I think the idea of free play is good but what I object to is that it seems that the open system means the Nursery school assisitents don't feel that they are fully responsible for their children to the extent that they feel they can wander around the Kindergarten themselves when they should be in the same room at least in the mornings when the children arrive.

I also have serious doubts that they know exactly where the children are and what they're up to. This is also not so good when it comes to bullying. There's a 6 year old boy who beats up the 3 year olds and i'm sure if he was in the same group all the time they'd keep a closer eye on him.

All in all i'm not a fan of this open system and we will be looking for a new Kindergarten with the closed system.

We send ours here. OK, it's private but they do some fantastic stuff and get the kids reading and writing in 2 languages instead of just playing all the time.

Are you looking to send your daughter to somewhere in Mainz? I can ask around and get some recommendations if you would like.

Yes j-m we would prefer to find a Kindergarten in Mainz and any recommendations would be much appreciated.

Kids Camp looks great Luke but it's a bit pricey and it quite a long way from Mainz, but thanks anyway for the tip.

There is a private English-speaking international kindergarten in Bonn - Bad Godesberg that follows the English curriculum for the Foundation Stage (otherwise known as the Stepping Stones and Early Learning Goals). There is a balance between free play and structured learning, considering that the older group is what is termed as "Reception class" in England. The children are in two groups - older and younger - and they stay in those groups except for snack time and outside play. It's good and there are no more than 10 children in each group, so they are monitored all the time. I have been told time after time by parents of all nationalities that it seems to work much better than the German system.

Hi Joe,

Yes, my kids go to a Kindergarten that operates the offener system and I have been wondering about this myself.

Ours is different in so far as there are no groups as such, just 50 children and a full team of staff. As the building is purpose built the option of being in separate groups doesn't exist - there is a staff member in every room and one for the breakfast area and one outside when the kids choose to play outside. As long as the staff are there it seems to work ok in terms of kids behaving and playing constructively. Some days they have time in a big circle at the end of the morning and there is always somone in the entrance hall with a list at drop off and pick up time.

While I do agree with the (Montessori ??) theory that kids learn most effectiveley when they are choosing what they learn I also agree that it is hard for a 3 year old to really excercise choice in such a hectic environment where older children are already playing in most of the popular areas. It can also get very noisy. My son, just 4, still finds it tough at times and I have thought about moving him to a convenional kindergarten but the others in our area are not so good. I want to keep him in a german one a bit longer so he learns good german as that is something he won't get from his parents. Next year will be very different for him as he won't be the youngest any more and he also won't have his big sister there.

My daughter (6) has really benefitted from her time in Kindergarten. It took at least a year for her to become confident with the staff and assertive enough to make her own choices but I think the social skills she has now developed were worth the initial struggle.

Even a conventional kindergarten can be difficult for the younger ones. While the mixed age group has many advantages the youngest can feel out of their depth
and the oldest can get bored. The system - open or closed - is only as good as the people running it. If I were in your position I would spend time visiting the local kindergartens and having a really good look at what is going on. If you speak english at home ask them how they support children who have german as a second language as this can be also be a source of stress for a child who is simply expected to 'pick it up as he goes along'.

This is already a long post - please PM me if you want to know more about my kids in the offener system.

My son has been in a Kindergarten for the past year and I had no idea it was called the Offener system.

Jack's Kingergarten splits the kids into gruppes and each child is assigned to a gruppe but can wander.

I think some of the kids enjoy the wandering but Jack is very shy so sticks with his own room. He has been in Kindergarten for a year and has picked up German but I do worry about the lack of structure. When he was at pre-school in the UK they tried to encourage the children to vary the activities that they do. In my son's case, he likes to run around and do Lego which is great but I wouldn't mind if he came back with some art sometimes

If they are in groups of up to 25 that is probably a conventional Kindergarten. In the Offener system the groups are allowed to mix and share space. All german Kindergartens place a great emphasis on Freispiel which is probably best translated as choosing time. At it's worst the kids wander without settling down to anything, at it's best they mix, socialise and engage in contructive play.

Excuse my cynicism but it sounds like a cop-out to me. 3-6 years choosing what they do? When I was 3 I was learning to read & write and loving it. At 4 I was the banker at monopoly. Our niece could barely hold a pen at age 6 with Kindergarten teachers actively dissuading parents from teaching them at home.
Kids want to learn, and need as much guidance from adults as possible.

What are the teachers doing during Freispiel. Drinking cups of coffee?

Well, as I have just written on another thread, I have done stuff at home with my kids to make up for what they don't get at Kindergaten. I'm not sure about my son yet but my daughter has certainly developed well in Kindergarten.

I can see the argument in favour of unstructured time much better now than I could 3 years ago because I have 2 children who are remarkably good at playing happily together at home and I am not panicking about what to do with them for the next 4 weeks.

I agree with luke. Children really have sensitive periods for learning at ages much earlier than they start in the state system here. Children do need the choices and socialising that free play allows but they also benefit from activities that encourage basic numeracy and literacy and real life skills. This should be the responsibility of the teacher.


According to a friend of mine who has worked in various Frankfurt city kindergartens over the last 10 years , yes they are.

I think maybe I found an unusually good Kindergarten for my kids because the stuff they do does encourage numeracy and they certainly get life skills. I'm always asking why they don't do more reading to the kids and in this respect I am a bit dissappointed but I chose German Kindergarten for my kids so they could learn good German, something they will never learn from me. Having made that choice it has really been my responsibility to make sure they got good input in English at home.

The problem I see in the Kindergarten is that the staff have not been trained to recognise when a child is ready to move on to more formal learning activities. They are too focussed on the list of things a child should be able to do when stating school (includes holding a pen) and not trained or prepared to take them any further.

Exactly what my kindergarten does, as we are an English kindergarten based on the English system, where children get "more formal" structured activities at an earlier age. As a qualified primary school teacher. also trained in early years, I totally agree that children are capable of much more at an earlier age (which I recognise and cater for) and that the system in this country does not cater for that. Yes, Freispiel (in England it is called "free play" funnily enough) time is important for the child`s development but also important are other areas of cognitive development, including language, mathematics and learning about the world. Leaving children until age 6 to experience learning on those grounds is, in my opinion, too late. Why hold a child back if it needs (and, in some cases, even wants) that?

My opinion (and training and experience) is that a balance of the two - free play and structured learning - is best. You should see the German kids coming out of my class and going into school. High flyers indeed! But, if they get bored at school because they can already do whatever (the argument I have heard before), then that is not my problem. It`s the class teacher`s job to cater for the children`s educational needs then but, as I have been told, that does not happen here so much in terms of differentiation and grouping, as it does in England. Back home, we`d be hung, drawn and quartered for that!

I think it's the only time in your life where you really want to learn (without even knowing it).

It's gonna be intersting when my daughters kindergarten group all turn up at the Grundschule in a few years time, all of them fluent in German and English. They'll have to change the system a bit, I think.