German obsession with qualifications

I've just had a very heated discussion with a colleague of mine and am feeling all het up and annoyed : he stated that Joshka Fischer was a crap politician because he hadn't studied anything, and didn't have the necessary "Ausbildung". He then went on to say that it wasn't possible to do any job properly unless you'd done the necessary "Ausbildung", and that this would be a hinderance to you for your entire professional career; whereas I think that the experience and knowledge that you gain whilst actually working in your field are just as valuable as anything you might learn on a course. And yet here, the general opinion seems to be that if you don't have the "right" bit of paper, you can't do it - even if you've actually proved otherwise. Any mistake you might make will be put down to you not having the right qualification (does that then mean that anyone with the right qualification doesn't make any mistakes?).

Which brought me to thinking about another discussion I'd had with various work colleagues on the subject of Erwin (?) Teufel, who had decided after retiring from his political career that he would go back and study, but couldn't because there was a general outcry when people discovered he didn't have his "Abschluss" (leaving certificate?).
I can certainly see that if you've just finished school, you need some way to prove or show what you can do, and the Abschluss does just that. But if you've been working for 30 or 40 years, then surely there must be some other way to assess whether you're eligible to study or not?

Would be really interested to hear what you all have to say about this!

Do not take this as me boasting, but I have zero qualifications for what I do and I'll guarantee you I earn a high multiple of what your colleague does. My wife is even less qualified and she earns more than me.
It's this obsession with titles and qualifications rather than success that is a major source of stagnation in this land.

Ah my favourite topic. Well one of them!

Why oh why do you need a TWO year apprenticeship to sit on a counter and swipe the bar cards over a scanner. Don't get me wrong I am not implying anything here, in fact the other way round, the cashiers on the till should have enough intelligence to do that after a couple of HOURS training. I did while I was studying.

Ok, you need to learn how to order stuff and know what to order. I could guarantee that every shop does it different.

I also did a two year apprenticeship in the British Army as an armourer and during that time we also learnt how to be soldiers. What does a cashier do in that time. I have seen very few combat cashiers in my time. Although the one at the Aldi where I live I'm not to sure about, I wouldn't want to come across her in dark alley, even if I was armed to the teeth. I learned most on the job anyway.

I am sorry what the hell do they do in that time?

Ha you just hit on one of my pet hates, this obsession with qualifications our German friends have.

I have recently acquired a BSc from the Open University at great expense to myself so that I may carry on with the same work I have been doing since 1998. OK at least with the OU I could cherrypick the courses that made up my degree so I did learn material that has proved to be useful but ffs my job is the same, just that now, in the eyes of my peers (and more importantly my customers), I can carry it out that much better. chunter chunter chunter

Why cant people here understand, the main factor that plays a role in how well I do my job is the fact that I have been gathering experience in the field for the last 20 years NOT the fact I have recently obtained a piece of paper.

Grr That would certainly get my blood boiling as well. However, that would be what a typical German would say. I am sure "that" sort of thinking is responsible for the lack of entrepenaurs in Germany. They leave. However, I recall Sir Richard Branson didn't do too well in school and dropped out. Correct me if I am wrong but I think he has done quite well for himself!

But hang on a minute, what about the value of receiving an honorary doctorate for "mature" people who have distinguished themselves in their particular career field. Your work colleague surely couldn't poohoo them?

Also, in Australia it was possible (maybe things have changed) but mature age students were assessed individually and could study at University even if they didn't have the necessary matriculation certificate. Alas, lots have things have changed since I studied there including the introduction of fees. Probably their attitude to older students would be a lot more welcoming and liberal than here.

I think your colleague is on the losing side of the arguement. He's a snob. There is room for people who have studied and those who have not.

Germany is full of career students who sponge from our tax money and never do a proper day's work, unless of course you call reading books a day's work. And when they finish studying, they find that what they learnt has become irrelevant and so they carry on learning and moaning that the state doesn't give enough to, say, unemployed-but-highly-qualified taxidermists. That's the biggest joke - they get all these effin' titles, make people call them doctor etc and think they're too important to do a job below their status. Much better to milk the state for all it's worth. Lazy bastards.

There are people needed for all types of jobs out there. OK when you leave school yr qualifications may matter to those who employ you but after years of 'life' experience and common sense (I find a lot of highly educated people lack this) this is just as valuable in a job.

As an example, my 2 eldest kids are very different in their abilities. Eldest finds maths, sciences easy and wants to be a pilot. The other one struggles with it. I was told by his teacher that he will never be an academic and had almost written him off. I was pissed off to say the least, i just answered her by saying ' i know but he is good with his hands and may well go into building work and employ one of the highly educated accountants to do his books, oh and may earn more than him too!' Her face was a picture.

So no, I don't agree that you have to have a piece of paper to be successful in this World. As ColonialGirl said, there is room for everyone.

Having qualifications does NOT make one a better person...I have known arseholes who are highly qualified and I wouldn't give them the time of day. (Of course there are nice ones too, before anyone wants to slay me )

i think your work mate is overdoing the 'ausbildung' thing. It was like that many years ago but things have changed. Although most firms will only take on someone who has the right qualifications ie 'ausbildung'. Normaly over here someone with an 'ausbildung' would be paid more than someone without.

the 'ausbildung' is there for youngsters to learn about the field of work they are going into. no one wants a school leaver without any expierience at all. that is what this is all about. you cant just walk into a job and be able to do it, well ok a cashier yes. How many of you could just sit in a car and drive it straight away?

There is no such 'ausbildung' here as a cashier, it is an einzelhandelskaufmann. Cashier is only a part of this and you dont need that to work on a till.

I have had 2 jobs since leaving the UK, and in each of them my bosses have given me false qualifications just too keep the human resources department, and other workers (they know it would get out) happy.

This pisses me off no end, and it gets difficult trying to remember what all of the qualifications are!!

It is perfectly reasonable to expect that some people will excel in what they do without formal training, and that others with all of the training in the world will never be able to do there jobs properly.

Have you noticed that it is only the highly educated ones who want to keep the "club" exclusive. Inferiority complex me thinks?

Duncan.

In my field of work they even make a difference in "the REAL" university and the FH (Fachhochschule). The once who studied at the REAL one look down on the one that studied at the Fachhochschule even though they have the same qualification in the end. That is what I call sad

My first job was as a futures broker in Frankfurt. I studied languages at Uni and had no idea what a bond was, let alone a bond future. My first day at work they made me stand on the desk on a direct line to the Bund trading pit at LIFFE in London and quote the market to my colleagues. I soon found out what a Bund future was when I had 6 people screaming orders at me, and the guy in London swearing at me because I was a bit slow.
No amount of studying can teach you that.

Its not just Germany though Britain has the whole Polytechnic vs University thing too.
And sometimes a piece of paper IS useful.
You want an unqualified nurse looking after you.(with all her life experience)

yeah just think of a docter or surgeon getting his expierience, oops made a mistake next please

I'd prefer a nurse who has lots of JOB experience to one who has studied but has little on the job training ta very much.

Britain doesn't have polytechnics anymore - they are all universities now - and even though you have the "red brick" uni differentiation, it is no way as bad as in Germany.
I think the main point in the UK is when we apply for jobs, HR people look at our qualifications AND experience and deduce that by what we have done so far, we are capable of doing the new job. In Germany, however, if you don't have the correct qualification or Ausbildung to start with, then you are often pushed out at the beginning as they believe that if you do not have the correct formal qualification then you are not able to do the job.

With regards to Alice's comments re nurses - it's different because obviously you need to learn something vocational and it really is a case of life or death! but in other positions, for example office jobs, having or not having gained the formal qualification shouldn't be deal breaker.

Nursing requires you to have certain amounts of on the job BUT as a student(and supernumery)experiance in addition to class work. Its an EU requirement. Without this practical experiance you cánnot recieve your CERTIFICATE.
So thats already covered

@Littlebear
Yep I think there needs to be a balance depending on the job
re: uni vs polys Yeah but people still know which was what before they changed their names.

But wasn't it the case with nursing that in the dark distant past the emphasis was on the job training with a minimum of classroom work and this emphasis has now been reversed. Let the doctors study nursing is hands on, people caring work. I recognise that certain nursing specialisations require more intensive theoretical training but surely this can be carried out after the basic training and a length of time on the wards (Note I have stopped shouting now)

I worked for the US Military for many years here in Germany and was lucky to receive promotions and lots of on the job training, classes, courses etc. and ended up in a upper management level. When the military closed the base where I was working I signed on at the Arbeitsamt, they said I wasn't qualified to do anything(didn`t have the right pieces of paper) to get any type of job, but that they would send me on a training course where I would receive certification which would enable me to work in an office. Incidently one of my jobs with the military had been in charge of training clerical staff.

@jwn where did you work for the americans?
I was 11 years with the american military. When the base closed down I too had problems with the qualification from courses, the arbeitsamt did not accept them either.

@ jwn

I know that feeling when I left the army at the start of the 90s I trotted off to the Arbeitsamt to be informed that I could wipe my backside with my army quals for all they were worth

This did however give me the determination to spite the burocratic muppets and make a success of myself (using an AA funded Umschulung as a stepping stone)

Hi bbully

I worked in Ulm, one of the first bases to close. Working for the US military was a very interesting experience, it took a bit of getting used to when I first arrived, everyone calling me by my first name and my first boss(his name was Richard) said call me Dick. I had previously worked in London in the City where formality was the order of the day.

@Fuchs
Spot on
That is exactly the case its called project 2000.
It was a nightmare when it started in our school of nursing. I was in one of the last batches of what they called "traditional students".
We had to teach the buggers on the wards. Absolute nightmare. Mind you its been fine tuned significantly since then.
Mind you the biggest problem was letting them in with GCSE´s and then expecting them to do first year Uni biology.

Only my opinion of course...

Given a choice I would always go for experience vs qualifications. People with high qualifications (no offence here to anyone ) often have several disadvantages in the real world:

1) They cannot think "outside the box" to get something to work.
2) They are always right as that is what they have been taught.
3) They expect more pay for the same job.

Generally managers who have come up "from the ranks" accept this and generally look at experience when looking at a CV. Pure managers (those who have only ever been management) only ever look at the qualifications. Unfortunately these are the types of managers who often perform the "first cut" when receiving CV's.

When leaving school qualifications are the only way of gauging people. Once they have gone past that level and have spent a few years in the real world, experience beats those "qualification", especially in a realm where things are changing quite quickly (I work in the IT industry).

Getting jobs also comes down to who you know.. Other that my first employment (4 total employers in 16 years) I have only moved into jobs after being "headhunted" or recieved offers of employment through people I knew outside of work.

I think this is two very different things

1. ausbildung - apprentiship
2. High Qualifications.

Kobold
for your point 1 and 2 that i agree with but on point 3 I too would expect more pay. With the same amount of experience that is. But this is hard to define. If someone has done the three year apprentiship and passed and someone has say one to two years on the job, who should get more pay? OK someone who has 15 years on the job is something else...

Glad to see it's not just me being weird.
I was soooo annoyed with this whole you-need-an-Ausbildung thing, and there's just no-one here at work that agrees with my point of view that I could have a whinge with!
Another point that I think is worth mentioning is that the quality of the Ausbildung itself can be very dodgy - depending on who's teaching you and where you do your practical training, it's entirely possible to come out knowing bugger all at the end! Compare that with someone who's been doing that particular job for 2 years, in a real company with real responsibilites!

Of course, getting the right qualifications is important - it can give you a good basic grounding, and definitely when you're just out of school it's the right way to go.
But this whole thing with Teufel and Fischer is just stupid - how can you possibly discount all those years of experience?!

@colonialgirl
I believe it's still like this in the UK too - you can go to university as a mature student, regardless of qualifications, if you can show that you have the relevant know-how and means to study. Quite often, a mature student will do much better on a degree course because they've got lots of experience that they can apply to the subject. Whether they ever did an A-level or not is completely irrelevant.

I also agree with the general opinion that's been voiced by many so far that this is something which is holding Germany back. It makes everyone very inflexible which doesn't exactly help the unemployment situation.
I'm shocked at what someone (was it Weeman?) said about his boss having to make up qualifications to keep HR and colleagues happy! That's dreadful! And surely proves that certainly in this case the qualifications don't mean a thing!!!

Is there an Ausbildung in politics ??? I can't help wondering what sort of Meisterbrief your colleague thinks Fischer should have to be a better politician.

I remember when we first moved here and asked the landlord if we could replace the horrible tiles in the kitchen with white ones. He agreed and a week later he was impressed with the new ones so he asked us who did it. When we told him we did it ourselves he was really shocked.

All the stuff about Sacharbeit just makes me laugh when it is things anyone with a Readers Digest DIY maunual could learn by doing.

Of course if Fischer had done any sort of Ausbildung he would have had it drummed into him that you never own up to having made a mistake, never, never, never. Maybe that was the point your colleague was trying to make.

I think my colleague thinks he should have studied politics or some sort of social science, which apparantly most other politicians have. No doubt it would have been a good starting point for someone interested in politics, but I certainly don't think you have to have studied and gone to university to become a politician.

What really got me was the way everyone here agreed with him.

We have a couple of people working in our company who are not strictly speaking "qualified" to do what they do (both office jobs) and anything they do which is not right immediately gets put down as "ah well, what can you expect, 'er hat nichts gelernt' ". I find this attitude amazing. When I ask does that mean that those who have learnt something / studied don't make those mistakes, I'm told the one thing has nothing to do with the other and I can't compare them!!! It's ridiculous!

I'm really impressed with the people on this board who say they've been working here without the "necessary" certificates - they must be working for some very forward-thinking companies! Let's hope more follow suit.

@rebecca
My colleague was just using Fischer as an example of why people should have an Ausbildung .
As for never admitting you've made a mistake - would you really have learnt something like that on a politics course? Is there anyone reading who studied politics and can help us out on that one?

It's possible to make a very successful career without qualifications - just look at George W. Bush.

The ideal is probably somewhere in the middle, between education and experience acquired. The mix is likely to vary between different types of job.

Jobs which do not involve a lot of writing or calculations but require high levels of skill or dexterity are probably best learnt mostly "on the job" from someone with plenty of experience. Sitting in a classroom would not help a plasterer learn his trade. Typically, when selecting a tradesman, you tend to look for someone who has plenty of experience and knows what they are doing.

Conversely, if you want to do something like designing digital filters, you need a certain level of mathematics which you are not going to "pick up on the job". You need some basic things on which to build the experience.

The downside to experience can be that people who are very experienced in a particular field tend to have set ideas about how to approach a problem, so they are not always the best innovators.

Sensible employers will probably consider what someone has to offer in terms of education and/or experience, and will what useful contribution they are likely to make.

The apprentice should get more pay in that instance as the time is different. 3 years apprentiship or 3 years "proven" experience should amount to the same pay. 3 years college in an applicable subject should also count the same. 3 years college in a different subject is hard to define... If they have a diploma in religeous studies it is hardly applicable to the IT industry...

The main advantage an apprentice has is that the work can always be classified as proven experience. This is otherwise hard to define/prove. Pay should be increased/frozen once you have a job and can prove your value to the company.

I guess what I am saying is that if several people perform the same job and add the same "value" to the company they should get the same pay. Those with "advanced" qualifications should not expect more just because of their piece of paper.


In the IT industry I generally tend to find it is the other way around.

Agree with jg, being in the IT myself and an expierienced and qualified one. When a problem appears I tend to try and find out why and then solve it. My work mate who is not qualified but has a few years experience works around the problem. So the problem is still there and pops up again later. Not a very good way to do things.

jg Was effectively saying experience people cannot think out of the box. which I strongly disagree with in the IT industry.

Your statement is effectively "Experienced people do not necessily follow accepted Standards". I guess that depends on who you know. Having been a computer consultant for approx 10 years I tended to find "workarounds" generally being used by people only when timescales did not allow anything else and/or they were otherwise dependant upon others (core product bugs which you could not do anything about other than raise them as a bug). It did not depend on if they were "experienced" or "qualified". The "experienced" personnel generally wanted to solve the problem properly out of a sense of pride even if they did it in their own time.

Yes I have had "basic college computer qualifications" but in general I have stood my ground and performed as well as those with degrees, even in companies where a degree was normally a condition of employment.

So much depends on the work environment itself. 3 years college + 3 years in a company with no company procedures and stupid timescales vs. 4 years experience in a company which insists on following company procedures (Design, code, TEST)... Which would be better ?

Well, after a fairly large number of years on this planet my take is:

Qualifications are important
- To get your foot in the door and get your first job. Then you can start to learn.
At this point you offer nothing except potential to an employer.

Experience is important
- After the first 3-5 years of work you finally learned something useful.
Now you offer something of real value to a company. You no longer need
any pieces of University/Polytechnic paper but keep your work-skills
up-to-date.

Exception
- If you have 'the gift of the gab', none of the above is necessary.
Go straight to 'GO' again and collect your $200... and keep collecting.

Basically it comes down to an obsession here with titles, qualifications, certificates and generally any document that could justify an otherwise miserable existence.

Take playing golf as example. German golf club members are the snobbiest bunch of people I have ever met, who can't understand how I can not be a paid-up member and still beat them easily. Over here you don't stand a whiff of a chance of getting on a course without proving you are a member of another club. I now have a faked handicap certificate in my bag (self produced using MsWord and a fax machine) and I can blag my way onto any course. And then I get on the course and it's full of idiots taking air shots (but at least they can tell their friends that they are members of a golf club).

You need to have a modicum of common sense to use any qualifications properly!
I don't see many practical uses for the bits of paper I've accumulated over the years! I've learnt a lot from actually putting some of it into practise and not just from yapping on about how great all my teachers, professors and mentors were!
(most of which were pretty average and could copy from books as well as I could )

A bit of gumption goes a long way in my Quality Assurance team...

I've always thought it's the German equivalent of a class system - unqualified, ausgebildet, studiert instead of working, middle and upper class... and once sorted into your category then it's just as hard to get out. Then the Herr Professor Doktor Schmidt types would be the aristocracy.
Austria's even worse though - the wives there carry their husband's titles so you get people seriously introducing themselves as Mrs Diplom-Ingineur Braun...very strange indeed.

If anyone's 'title' is missed off their business cards they go wild around here!
Some of the email signatures are a bit stupid with each and every title listed.
I once took the Michael by putting down several scout badges on a list of all qualifications I had gained... it didn't go down very well at all...

I didn't even mention my certificates from Big Chief I-Spy!!

I think the basic problem is maybe an obsession with social climbing, it's as simple as that!

Oh boy, you lot have it made who can spend all day here! As Fuchs said in Post 3 or 4, this is one of my (very few) pet hates about Germany!

It's mostly been said already, but I feel I must get my 2 cents worth in! First, I think those who say that this is one of the things holding Germany back are 100% corrrect. A degree, or comparable qualification, is a sensible aid for an employer for a maximum of five years - thereafter experience and proven ability are far more relevant. I've been fairly closely involved with Bayer for over 20 years now and like most other major German firms, your chance of making it into senior management without a Dr. title is negligible.

The ones who really get up my nose though, are the ones who insist on being addressed by their full titles - Prof. Dr. Dr. -yuck!

That is also something i hate when people ride on their titles. Herr Dr. Dr. Doctor hihihihi
We had two people move back from our company in Thailand and wanted their Doctor title put on their business cards. Well it came out they had bought them in Thailand.
Same as alien i wanted all my qualifications on my business card, cub scouts, boy scouts, blue peter badge. Dont want any of mine on there as people expect then you to know everything.

Well I work in the medical department of a large German company and have to deal with these people all the time!

When I started there I honestly thought one of the secretaries was joking when she said I should call senior head of department 'Frau Professor' but she was not! I find it absolutely hilarious!

I cannot stand the way some of them treat me as well I do get a lot of second class treatment because my degree is not in medicine! Actually most of them do not even class it as a degree!

Oh and most have them do not have an ounce of common sense either. We always have a giggle at some of the problems they have with their laptops, telephones etc! Yes I have two Doctor titles but that has not taught me how to call up my voicemail messages!!

I don't think I have any documented qualifications… apart from a driving licence, I was expelled twice from secondary school and what exams I did take were mediocre to say the least, not that O levels have any bearing on todays world anyway. I hated school and I still have a problem with teachers to this day but am I un-educated or unable to do my job? No I’m not; I’ve received higher pay rises than my fellow workers because of my ability to do the job better than them… I don’t need a “Berufskraftfahrerurkunde� to prove my ability.

I think that Hr Dr. this and Frau Prof. that is just pure bullshit snobbery, but not as bad as some excessive snobbery I’ve come across. Last year I went to Wolfenbüttel to the graveyard to pay my respects to my grandmother with my mother who had flown in from the UK, after doing the obligatory things, we walked through the graveyard chatting about the past when I asked for something to be translated that was on a grave stone, the dead person only had had his job title engraved on his tombstone, as if a school inspector is that important, maybe it was I don’t know, further down the line there was another who had had the German equivalent of “senior verger� engraved on his headstone. When I started to look around there were more, councillors and the like, now that’s snobbery to far, trust me, to the grave is to far!