From Hitler youth to Papa Razzi

I had a feeling that the English press were going to be less than favourable to a German Pope and the Sun's headline "From Hitler youth to Papa Razzi" came as no surprise. And it wasn't just the Sun, The Telegraph and Mirror were also just as bad. The BBC also couldn't resist mentioning Ratzinger's so called Nazi past.

The British press are at best juvenile and at worst xenophobic. They are also a bit liberal with the truth. I mean if they knew the basic facts of the Nazi era they would know that all children of a certain age were forced to join the Hitler Youth.

It's getting very tedious hearing references to the war when ever Germany is in the worlds spotlight.

England likes to be p.c when it comes to the treatment of ethnic minorities but when it comes to attacking Germans the English political correctness goes right out the window.

I agree with you.
Honestly how would they like to grow up under a brutal dictatorship.

Yep, terrible and also clouds, what are for me, the main issues.

What is the new pope's position on homosexuality, abortion, celibacy ?

Your a Catholic then Ablehalle.

Nope, I'm more on the lines of drinking goat's blood.

But I do think that the Catholic church is way out of line on homosexuality, abortion and celibacy. Maybe Mike can give us a 6 page essay on the subject.

While I completely agree that I too have issue with those doctrines
I also believe it is for Catholics to decide what they want from their Pope.
And to expect any liberality in teaching from the Pope belongs surely in the land of sheer fantasy.
I dont agree with Orthodox Catholic views much in the same way I dont agree with the orthodox views of my own lot.
I fully except that it could be argued that women in third world countries (catholic countries) suffer because of the Catholic churches influence on public policy. I believe the blame in those cases shoulsd be laid square at the doors of their respective governments.

P.S ten pages at least.
P.P.S At least you wont get BSE or HIV from it
wise choice in blood products

Sorry, I'm gonna have to disappoint you guys on that one.

I think if people feel they are homosexual, want to have an abortion, be celibate, or drink goat's blood, that is their choice. I know people from all 4 persuasions and don't hold it against them, even though my way is another.

Every religion, like any other club has it's rules. if you want to be in the club, you have to abide by the rules, if you don't like the rules then perhaps you should leave the club and find one where the rules are more palatable to your taste. Many do.

You might try reading:

"The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by Baigent & Leigh
"Hilter's Pope" by John Cornwell
"The Bible" by God

And may yours go with you...

Not disapointed Mike
As you can see from my post I feel the same way.
Its for Catholics to decide

"I mean if they knew the basic facts of the Nazi era they would know that all children of a certain age were forced to join the Hitler Youth."

He or his family could have said no...

So could the men who bombed the hell out of Dresden
Being in Hitler YOUTH does not mean you are a NAZI so what does it matter if he was or wasnt in HY
His family faced difficulties as it was because he refused to join the party later on.

Quote from "Joe Strummer":
The British press are at best juvenile and at worst xenophobic. They are also a bit liberal with the truth. I mean if they knew the basic facts of the Nazi era they would know that all children of a certain age were forced to join the Hitler Youth.

It's getting very tedious hearing references to the war when ever Germany is in the worlds spotlight.

England likes to be p.c when it comes to the treatment of ethnic minorities but when it comes to attacking Germans the English political correctness goes right out the window.

I think its about time Germany lodged an official complaint with the EU about this!

Rick

Maybe he joined before this date. I dont see it makes much difference. Under a dictatorship there are subtleties that come into play that go way beyond just laws which mean it can be very difficult and potentially dangerous to go against the regeme.

"So could the men who bombed the hell out of Dresden"
Did any of the men who bombed Dresden become leader of the Catholic church Alice ??
And for your information the people who gave the orders to bomb Dresden did not start a war with Germany.

"Being in Hitler YOUTH does not mean you are a NAZI so what does it matter if he was or wasnt in HY"

So you think swearing an oath to Adolf Hitler does not make you a Nazi ...

"His family faced difficulties as it was because he refused to join the party later on."

Some children and their families BRAVELY refused membership of HY.

An oath sworn under duress is meaningless

Ive checked and he joined in 41 and yes you are right they could have taken the consequences.

I dont know that I can sit in judgement so easily I honestly dont know what I would do if I were in his parents position.
But then if I had had sons then I would not have been in that position.
As Jews they would have been exempt! Jews were barred admission to HJ.

"I dont know that I can sit in judgement so easily I honestly dont know what I would do if I were in his parents position! "

I'ts not a matter of sitting in judgement...the mans parents along with the majority of Germans at the time did the wrong thing...that is a fact...60 yrs on their son is pope...it does sound a little bizarre...did anyone really expect the English press to ignore this...

Sounds judgemental to me! (BTW: try to learn to use the Quote button when quoting)

Who are you to say his parents and the majority of Germans did the "wrong thing"? You can only do the "wrong thing" if you have a real choice! They did what thy needed to do to survive in the situation they were in - Where's the "wrong" in that? After all, Hitler siezed power, he was a vile dictator, he was not elected to be Chancellor.

You could equally say that the majority of the British did the wrong thing in electing Neville Chamberlin, as him letting Hitler get away with various anexations, and not keeping to agreements also led to the war. Appeasement was the main reason Hitler managed to do what he did, because every time he stepped over an agreed boundary, nobody tried to enforce the agreements which had gone before, and every time he got away with it, he went for the next one.

Hitler didn't actually expect Britain or France to do anything when he marched into Poland, after all, they didn't do anything against his annexation of Austria, and althought the "peace in our time" agreement allowed him certain parts of Checkoslovakia, nobody did anything when he took the lot...

Sorry mate, but learn some history, of how things really were in those times, before you go making judgmental statements about other people's pasts.

War is not pretty, and there are no winners. Britain, far less England, didn't win the war, it just lost it less than Germany did. The winners, if at all, were USA and Russia.

It is preposterous for the decendants of those who lost less to criticise the distant past of those who lost more on a basis of history as presented in war films and tabloid propaganda.

Able, Alice: Was that long enough then?

I arrived in Sweden on the day the Pope was elected. I can't say I'm surprised that he was chosen, but I'm glad I missed out on all the German press and hour long news specials etc etc!! However, I too am appauled at the British press. The bloody Sun newspaper should be banned! I personally don't take anything in that paper seriously, but what I do take seriously is the fact that a lot of German's (and other nationalities) get, once again, the completely wrong impression of popular UK thinking!!! Can't someone bump off Merdoch and his cronies?


Yes this is true. However, the only gripe I have is the amount of people who are discriminated against, hurt or dispised and even killed by the Catholic doctrine. Whether we like it or not, religion influences politics. Even if you leave the club, you're still affected by it! Ooh Stoiber and Merkel are gonna milk this. I could puke! And now the Pope's first papal visit will be to Germany. Whooppee, who's going from the Britboard? Perhaps there could be a Bavarian meet-up!

If you read the article in the Sun, it actually states that he was reluctant to join the HJ and puts a positive spin on it. Is there anything untrue in the headline "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi"? No.
It wasn't just the British press either - the Scandinavians were at it too.

@Goerdie exile: I know why you are in exile, stay there!

@All: please leave this extremely touchy subject. There is always some prank who thinks he knows it all and winds other people up about it. My opinion - as a German - is very simple: the Nazi times should NOT be forgotten but what do I or my children have to do with them that we have to keep apologizing? Nobody in their right minds would agree with what Hitler used to do. I wish my English was better to express exactly what I mean but it makes me really mad and sad to read those headlines in the English papers. They'll never let go, will they?

No one is saying that you or your kids should have to say sorry. What happened back then has nothing to do with you. But Ratzinger is 78 and was in the Hitler Jugend. That is a fact.

I agree. Admittedly, it's a bit off to parp on about the war everytime an old German is in the news. But you can't deny the facts either, and as I said, if you read the sun the article isn't negative at all.

Well to me the Pope is just a politician, but for a religous party, and all the double dealing, hanky-panky and all other shady stuff that goes on in normal poitical parties goes on in there too, it is no different (in my opinion). I can't see all the fuss as to what his background his or was.

I do get embarrassed about thie anti-german stuff I read, I hate it as well, and wish the whole media in the UK would drop this subject and let everyone get on. This theme is like a bad penny, I still think the next generation will bo so much nicer in terms of UK/German relations.

Mike a,
regardless of whether it sounds judgemental to you it does not alter the FACT...Hitler did not come to power by luck or accident,he had the support of the German people of the time. Blame Chamberlin ,Donald duck or whoever you like to justify the Nazis.
Maybe your head is swimming from all the knowledge gleaned from history books to realise such a successesful killing machine could not be maintained by a minority ???.

Thanks for the tip about the quote button

Yes Luke I agree that the fact that Ratzinger was in the Hitler Youth is a fact, but the Sun as usual are putting a different slant on this fact with that type of headline. They want their readers to believe that the new Pope was a Nazi. If this wasn't their intent then they could have easily written From Humble Priest to Papa Ratzi but then again that would be boring and not sensationalist enough for the Sun.

Don't forget this is the same newspaper that carried the headline Lets Blitz Fritz. They haven't exactly got a brilliant reputation for building good German British relations, have they?

I just think that many people are too sensitive when it comes to things like this. My colleagues thought the Sun headline was funny.

Funnily enough I read the Scandinavian press were also making hostile comments about the Pope's past.

So he`s now 78 and was in the Hitler Jugend! He wasnt in the NSDAP he was in the HJ - as a kid. Does it matter?

Most if not all german kids of that time were in the HJ, you had little choice. And as far as the politics of the HJ are concerned, most kids arent interested, what matters to them is the chance to have a good time and be part of a group. Its the adults who try to use these organisations for politics, the kids couldnt give a damn.

What has he done in his adult years since then? Has he belonged to neo-nazi type movements or something. Not as far as Im aware!

I have to say I find this continual sniping at all things german by the british gutter press unacceptable. Cant we introduce some sort of EU directive making it illegal for one EU member state to smear another member in this way?! I think we could do with a bit of political correctness here if anywhere...

Why are people getting so worked up about an article that was printed in the Sun,
does anyone get upset about the junk that is printed in the National Enquirer or other such rags? I mean does anyone actually believe half of the stuff they read ( do people actually read it!!) in those sheets of toilet paper

Absolutly correct, sensatlioniszm is what sells papers, that and topless grils

They're talking about the British headlines on the German news right now... there's nothing like angry German newscasters!!

The trouble is, it gives us expat english a bad press abroad. Right now Bild-Zeitung (does anyone actually read that?!) and other papers are going to town on the atitude of the british press.

Well I don't care how the Scandinavian's want the rest of the world to think about them and their headlines, but I'm fed up of our press back home shaming the country, even more than it's currently shamed with Blair & co, with stupid headlines. Then again, if the Sun's headlines weren't stupid, then no stupid people would read it...

So what if the Pope was in HY. That was 60 years ago. And thanks to the boulevard press, everyone is up to date on the true facts. I'm more concerned about what he has in store for the future, than what he did or didn't get up to in the past!!!

Well said Joe Strummer. The British press are nothing but pathetic and as you said whenever Germany is mentioned it always has to revert back to the war. It's about time they grew up but then again people who buy that crap believe that crap!!! I'm proud to say iv'e never bought a British newspaper for years and now i know why!!

Just want to point out to those always griping about how we ever do is make negative comments about Germany... we don't restrict ourselves to b----ing about Germany! We b--ch about everything!!

Cheers,
Rebecca
AKA 'equal opportunity b--ch'

I actually found the Bild Zeitung's headline more out of order: Wir sind Papst.
It's like they think they've won Pop Idol or something. Isn't nationality supposed to be irrelevant on things like this?
Read this morning that some papers are now digging him out for his silence when it comes to all the child molesters in the church. Is that allowed?

It is sad that the Sun and similar rags print such things. However, this is not something limited to the British press. French and German papers often write complete drivel about Britain or British people.

The German brother and cousins of one of my friends were convinced that they were paying extra taxes to the EU to pay for the British royal family.

Then there was the article about a year ago in Das Bild about how Britain held joint responsibility with Germany for the Holocaust because the RAF could have bombed the camps and stopped the killings...

As far as I can see the gutter press in Britain, France and Germany are happy to stir up hatred between Britain and the Continent, as long as it sells newspapers.

I cannot remember ever reading anything positive about Britain in a German or French newspaper, so I don't read them any more.

AFAIK, the only useful information in the Sun is in the sports section but I have not looked at one for years.

That's almost right actually. There was an article in the International Herald Tribune recently about how much money the royals get from the EU's Common Agricultural Policy to "maintain" the grounds of Windsor Castle and most of Cornwall. And it was bloody loads as well. I mean, as if they haven't got enough (taxpayer) money for this job.

The article (can't track it down, sorry) also mentioned that big businesses get most of the dosh from the CAP so Tate & Lyle got something like GBP 1.5 million to help them make even more monoculture plantations and squeeze out the little guys.

So, you weren't far off the mark there.

Another Urban Myth, the Royals don't cost tax payer money, yes they receive monies but its paltry compared to what Britain makes as a whole for having such a prestigious quirky family as a tourist attraction!

They actually are self supporting and the money that is allotted to them pays for hosting foreign dignitaries and flying the banner for UK businesses.

The country on a whole makes more money out of the Royals than the Royals receive!

I laughed out loud at that. Anyone read the Bild headlines this morning. It is getting to be a fight between the Sun and the Bild. (Probably the same crowd if you knew the whole story).

The whole thing with the Hitler Youth is again just a copy of a British invention. The boy scouts were started in order to relay information and for espionage during the Boar Wars. Ask a South African boar about it and he would probably steam off about the British, and their concentration camps, and the paramilitary nature of the Boy scouts. The Boy Scouts still resemble a Paramilitary organization, which is no wonder that it was so widely copied, by both the Nazis and the Communists.

To say that Ratzi’s family had a choice is somewhat narrow minded!

My problem with old Ratzinger is that he really is conservative (with a big C), he was after all unto last week head of the Inquisition (“Aha nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition�). At least the department that was responsible for it! His views are way to the right of about 90% of all Catholics! Yet his position holds sway in many countries (excommunication is not a good carrier move for any politician in a Catholic country). The position of Pope is not that of a normal politician, but rather that of King or Emperor over the Catholic masses, (it is not without ground that the Cardinals are call the princes of the Church)! I am no longer sure if this is the situation today, but the position of Pope was historical granted absolute power, over Christianity (at least the parts that were Catholic).

I am not Catholic or religious in any way, but for the good of mankind, and millions of people world wide, I hope that God (if there is one) calls him up as soon as possible!

Mike A in answer to your question Ja!!!
Danke Schön
I was losing the will to live at that point.
So thanks for piping in
And you already know my views on this subject
Suffice to say I concur with your post
thanks again

Alice

Totally agree. It's his ultra-conservative views on things like the ordenation of women priests, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, etc. that worry me. I would have liked to see a more liberal-minded Pope in place, but he'll be taking the catholic faith back a step as far as I can see.

Well don't worry too much, even he doesn't think he will reign long:


Pope Benedict XVI

First and last words from me about all this:

Even though, personally, I don't care one little bit about this difficult subject, one thing I DO know: The pope certainly knows how to sell newspapers in lots of different countries!

Please don't tell me I have to care and I'm ignorant - the entire subject is, in my personal opinion, about 2005 years past it's sell-by date.

Homosexuals, Lesbians ? ... I would do a Kenny Everett on them, ie:- " Round them up. put 'em in a field, and bomb the b******s." Un-natural ... against the norm. Make me sick just to think about them.

God ... read James Brown, " The Da Vinci code ", and give it another think.

Who wrote the Bible ? ... A human.

Who continued to write the Bible, plus amendments? A human.

Who still writes and amends the Bible.? A human.

All motivated and governed by the Church doctrine of " the moment."

Look at the painting on the " Last Supper. The person sitting on His right hand is a WOMAN. Mary Magdelane. Jesus MARRIED her and they had a daughter. She was not a prostitute. Da Vinci believed this, and included her in the painting.
There were 12 disciples, but one was a woman.!!! Please, read the book.

Raffles.

Alice, I apologise, the above quote regarding not mentioning the subject was meant to be directed to Goldilocks, I got confused with the names.

Here is the translation of the comment in response to Goldilocks suggestion that the subject should be left alone:
Wichever comment anyone wants to post it should be allowed. Your suggestion to leave th subject is rather ridiculous - it is a public board after all.
Apologies for speaking in German.

@ Sandra, thanks for the translation. It was completely different to what I thought you said...

@Gentleman, don't think Dan Brown needs any assistance in the sales department

Maybe that is why they chose Ratzinger for Pope, I think he was quite outspoken about the 'lies' Brown perpetuated in his book and I think it was his idea to appoint a Cardinal to debunk these 'lies'. Although what it actually did was add fuel to the fire...

@ Raffles, Dan Brown on winning the WH Smith book of the year "For the record - it is a novel" although according to the paper he did add that he was 'delighted the book had stimulated debate and made readers question their faith and beliefs'

I've been told by members of the Catholic church that choosing Ratzinger was a tactical move to eventually steer the Catholic Church towards a more modern, speak-to-the-(young)people, approach. Ratzinger, already 78, won't be able to influence world affairs like Pope John Paul did, because he won't be around for so long, thereby clearing the way earlier for someone more liberal.

@ geordie exile

It is a historical fact that the NSDAP never received a majority vote in fair and democratic elections. They were the junior party in a coalition, which used the power hunger of the other party to negotiate a more powerful position than their actual votes allowed. After that they basically usurped power through a series of follies by generally weak mainstream politicians and a senile president.

@ Sandra-S


Neither Alice, or myself have done anything other than provide qualified contrary arguments. My arguments were statements of historical fact, contrary to the ill-informed opinion presented in one or other post. Even if you did get mixed up, then by your own demand, you should also allow Goldilocks to state her opinions!

At no time have I even insinuated that others should not voice their opinions. I have only called those opinions into question, which is, after all, the point of a discussion.

Others, though, make statements like:

Which does sort of translate to: I don't like your posts, so get out of here! Nothing like the kettle calling the pot black

I think the whole reaction to Ratzinger can be summed up.


What did we expect?

As for one possible explanation about the press reaction. I don't know if it reflects my views. Sounds like nonsense.


From Irish Independent Article Registeration required, which they in turn took from the Daily Telegraph