From Hitler youth to Papa Razzi

QUOTE
The Berlin tabloid BZ argued that even the Arab world had given the German Pope a better reception than the British.

It turned for an explanation for the "envy and poison" to Professor Manfred Pfister, an expert on Britain at Berlin's Free University. He argued that the new Pope embodied two of Britain's great hates: Germans and Catholics.

"Lots of the media still equate the Germans with belligerent fascists," the academic said. "Then there's the Catholic church, the hate towards which is so great that every year on November 5 the British burn the effigy of a Catholic would-be assassin."

Sounds to me like the germans are once again taking things far too seriously. One thing they ought to realise right at the beginning is that the english tabloids are the very last thing to be taken seriously. Germany`s boulevard press cannot be compared with Britains boulevard press - or rather gutter press, boulevard press sounds far too grand.

Bild is almost intellectual compared to the Sun. At least it has real news in it, whereas the Sun & Co just carry rubbish. Many a British politician or public figure has been on the receiving end of them, as have most other nationalities over and beyond The Germans.

And what does Bild & Co do? Get worked up into a serious self-analysis and self-justification, going out and interviewing german pensioners about their days in the Hitler Youth, and making the whole thing into a full page spread.

No one of average inteliigence whether in UK, Germany or anyone else can seriously be suggesting that the German Pope Is A Nazi because he was in the Hitler Youth as a boy.

OK, the germans are sensitive about the past, as well they might be, but to respond in such a serious self-searching manner is just falling into the classic english trap. Take yourself too seriously and the english have the last laugh. Winding the germans up is a old english pasttime - and they make it sooooo easy!

Foreigners!! I ask you!! :-)

Loopy ... thanks for your reply.

Yes, it is a book, as is the Bible. Written by humans, not Gods.

James Brown did more, proveable, factual reasearch, than anyone has ever done about the Bible, which contains not one fact .. except maybe that these characters did exist.

Have you actually read the book...novel.?

Reggie, sorry about the large text. Not much refinement available on choice here.
Hope you are keeping well, down there in Stuttgart.

Raffles.

It seems like the Sun and Bild are both reliving the War. This is what the Bild have written in response to the Sun and Mirror.

Liebe „Sun“, lieber „Daily Mirror“,

es muß sich ein neues Redaktionsmitglied namens Teufel – Mr. Devil – bei Euch eingeschlichen haben. Eure Schlagzeilen zum deutschen Papst stinken nach ihm, nach Schwefel, faulen Eiern.

„From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi, vom Hitlerjungen zum Papst Ratzi“ („Sun“). „God’s Rottweiler, Panzerkardinal“ („Daily Mirror“).

Wer Euch britische Massenblätter gestern las, mußte denken, Hitler sei Papst geworden. Für Euch ist offensichtlich jeder Kraut ein Nazi, selbst wenn er Papst ist.

Eigentlich kann das nur dem Teufel einfallen. Oder leider euch komplexbeladenen Engländern. Es ist wie bei den Fußballspielen. Wir sind immer die Nazis. Was für ein armseliges Glück, uns zu hassen. BMW, Siemens, den FC Bayern – und jetzt den Papst.

Ich hasse nicht zurück. Der Papst in seiner Güte wird Euch Dummköpfe in seine Gebete aufnehmen. Sie, Chefredakteur der „Sun“, und Sie, Chefredakteur der „Daily Mirror“. Auch Dumme kommen in den Himmel.

Herzlichst

Ihr F. J. Wagner

If today’s papers are anything to go by it seems the Pope will be regretting praising the press yesterday!

Raffles - I read the book when it first came out, before all the hype, and thoroughly enjoyed it, as Leky commented it is an 'entertaining read' and I am looking forward to seeing the film

I am not disputing the issues raised in the book, the book is widely acknowledged to be well grounded in known research (as is the Bible). However, it has also been acknowledged that Brown extrapolated from the research for the purposes of writing a good story, thus, some of the prose is speculation and exaggeration. As Brown himself confirms.

The reason I cited Brown's comments in response to your post was because the way you refer to the Da Vinci Code as 'the book' is, to me, reminiscent of the way people talk about the Bible. Likewise, is your championing of 'the book' as 'the truth'. I did not cite Brown because I am Catholic or do not believe anything Brown has commented on. I am not religious (although I find the notion of religion interesting) and apologies to anybody that is as no offence is intended with my next comment but as far as I am concerned God is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. People are entitled to their beliefs, as are you, I just did not take to the evangelical tone of your post.

I have visions of you on a street corner with the Da Vinci Code in one hand and the Mona Lisa in another prophesising

They obviously don't understand the "wait-and-see" approach.
As far as I see it, if you were supposed to know, you'd know. Which doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the stuff the Church does in the community. Just a shame they have to combine it with so much mumbo-jumbo.

I just skimmed the this thread - and beside all the Nazi stuff about Pope Benedikt XVI., I've to say that I still like the name "Papa Ratzi"! *lol*

When Ratzinger was elected I was disappointed first - even though I actually don't care that much for the church. I thought there might have been a better one.

Ratzinger though doesn't really seem to be what everyone expected him - my opinion has changed in the past few days, now I think he isn't that bad of a leader of the catholic church.
Actually: What do we really know about him?
Ok, we know he's been in the Hitler-Jugend and he's said to be very conservative - but beside that, there isn't anything at all that we know, is there?

I for myself have not even really heard anything about Ratzinger before Pope John Paul II. died, except that he sometimes sneaked somewhere in the Vatican...

I'd say we should just wait and see what kind of person and what kind of pope Ratzinger will (turn out to) be... you never know...

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/MrMagoo/RatzingerPapstBenediktXVI.jpg[/img]

I read last night that MR Ratzinger prayed to god that he would not be chosen, and that in his opinion god didn't listen to him this time.

If the would be pope hasn't got any clout, makes me wonder a bit about the effectiveness of the common mans prayers. Don't understand why he would want to share this with the world, it can't help the chuch expand and reach out to more people. Makes him a better person to be so honest, but surely doesn't help the church.

It seems the British media are not the only ones harping on about the Pope's past

The Italian site of a media company have managed to offend Catholics with some doctored photos.

I'd have thought this was much more interesting

Always find it interesting to read about the "pet hate" of Germans. I've always found this to be more torwards the French... The Germans tend to accupy a subconcious "grudging respect and envy and an easy target because we beat them in the war" part of the British Mentality. For all the people harping on about the war... Do you know how the Germans announced the invasion of Poland ? "Now we will shoot back..." as German border guards along the Polish border were often shot at and were not allowed to retaliate. A lot of things happened in the war which were/still are unexusable and should not be forgotten. Whilst remembering this however, bear in mind the first concentration camps in the world were British...

As for the Pope, judge him by what he does. Not his "conformidy to the norm" when he was younger.

Yeah, good way of self-defense to invade half of europe for that...

Besides, that there's even no proof for the shootings you are refering to,
the radio message from Addi where he declared poland the war
was justified as a direct reaction to massive polish attacks on serveral parts of the german border.
By the way: The german attack did not start by foodsoldiers and tanks at the border in question but at the coast of danzig with destroyer ships...

Never said the war was justified... Only pointing out how it was portrayed to the average bod... What we see now is exactly the same, only now the "propaganda" campaign is easier in some ways, harder in others. Look at the Falklands war and how that was portrayed... All of Britain was gripped in a "support the war" frenzy and re-elected Maggie. It is now more difficult for the powers that be, due to the ease of communication, but Blair and Bush went to war in Iraq, trying to get the people behind him with the "propaganda" of WMD. OK it may have backfired a bit but he is likely to get reelected. If the British people cannot make a stand for what is they believe is right, why should ordinary Germans have when they did not have easy access to alternative sources of information ?

Yes the war was wrong, as are most, if not all and it is normally the average people who suffer. My main point is don't judge people when they act like everone else around them (with exceptions such as war crimes etc which should never be excused). Judge them by what they have done afterwards and what they are doing now.

I was not saying that you found the war was justified, I only wanted to make clear that the declaration from Hitler was not refering to the shootings you mentioned.

And of course "propaganda" does not mean "information" but "influence". There might be a grain of thruth in every propaganda but it's always difficult to find.

Maybe that was the problem Kobold,when ordinary Germans were turning a blind eye to the racism and persecution inflicted on Jews and non Aryans they should have been judging the perpetrators.
And what are they doing now ???...i have been to several fests where young men have paraded in jackboots with shaven heads obviously supporting Nazism,not very nice for any non whites in attendance.I judge them as spineless with no brain cells ,everytime i raise this as a issue with German people however i get the same old "they are only young and will grow out of it"..."ignore them they are foolish"...the list of excuses is endless...

Jack Boots and Nazi symbolism etc is not just a German thing, you can also see it in England, America etc etc. The world needs to move on (whilst still remembering what human nature is capable of). The far right is most noticable in Germany due to history but I would hazard a guess that some tend to use it for its "shock value". Even with the recent march in Berlin, look at how many people in it were from the east, with over 20% unemployment. This is, in my opinion very similar to the BNP which are I believe on the rise in the UK.

Also before judging look at British history/empire building and the atrocities caused and "forgotton"... What is the main difference... The Germans overreached, they lost, they didn't get a new "empire", and probably the most influential thing, they didn't write the history.


Look at today with the Americans... Guadanimo Bay (OK not sure of spelling), lack of willingness to join treaties, especially on accountability, torture of prisoners etc. Yes the lower "grunts" are being punished for prisoner abuse but is that where the blame really lies? There are always "abuses" of the system and even today with modern media, the average person does not necessarily know about them. For those people who do, it is human nature to protect themselves and their families, especially in a regime like the nazis. Examine the recent british election. People protested loudly about Iraq and its "illegality". What do they do... look after themselves and reelect Blair as Iraq doesn't really affect them. Although we are "individuals" it is only a very few who have the courage to stand up for what they believe. Most follow the herd. If you want you could then also look at Israel in modern times and their treatment of the palistinians. OK not "concentration camps" but if people are oppressed shouldn't we all take a "stand". But we won't as it doesn't really concern us and I, although partially ashamed to admit it, feel the same. Does that make me responsible for every death in Israel ?

Kobold,
I respect your viewpoint though i think we will never agree on this particular subject...but thats the beauty of debate...

The difference in my opinion is there are many people still alive today who remember vividly the consequences of what Germans did...in time it will also be forgotten, that is part of human nature.
A German member of this board moaned about what he/she or the children had to do with the Nazis and felt angry at having to apologize...the same person posted this in a thread


Absolutely priceless and just about sums up the attitude of the majority of Germans i have come across...it makes me wonder if they genuinely regret the behaviour of their great grandparents and grandparents...or if they just want people to stop going on about a subject that is negative for Germany.


The majority of the British public quite clearly rejected Blair,what they did was re-elect the Labour party.

Same here...


When you are put down so often it is human nature to blame others.

I think we should agree that this should not be forgotton, no matter how much time passes. The new memorial in Berlin is a good step forward although I am of the opinion that it should also be for the other victims, the homeless, homosexuals etc, not just jews.


In my experience with elections the majority of people tend to vote the party leader out, rather than the party in but then I am completely jaded about politicians in general and cynical :$

Finally we are in agreement...!!!

The topic is about the pope really, and some of his new ideas could be quite exciting for the young folk.