I was in my local bookshop this saturday afternoon and found a load of books all about the theme of Germany`s current problems and inability to reform. In particular, one by a respected leader of a german economics institute "Ist Deutschland noch zu retten?" It set me wondering.
The discussion in another thread about the things people find "not fab" about Germany, also occurred to me at this point. it struck me that number of the points that were raised in it suggest that the germans have rather a rigid outlook and attitide, fixed inflexible ways of doing things. I wonder if this isnt something that pervades the society, economy and culture here.
Not only about relatively minor things like their reluctance to cross the road until you are told (ie against the red light), rules about when you can and cant wash your car, mow the lawn and a hundred other things, that take away their freedom to think and act freely on their own initiative, to their heavy reliance on bureaucracy, courts of law to settle every dispute, to the big hullaballoo thats made at each and every attempt to introduce some reform, no matter how small. The difficulties in setting up in business here, bureaucracy, restriction and regulation at evey turn.
Are the germans ein rigides Volk (a rigid people) - who only flourish in an environment of fixed rules and predictable outcomes? Are they unsuited to the 21st century of globalisation and deindustrialisation in the west? Their economy and society flourished in the post war period, I would say up until 1990. Since the collapse of the East-West iron Curtain, the end of the rigid DDR, the end of the certainties of Bundesrepublik Westdeutschland and the 1990s EEC. Take away the rigidity, introduce an environment where flexibility and innovation and entrepreneurial spirit are the required traits to survive and flourish, and where does it leave them? The anglo-saxons seem to cope much better in such an environment.
My theory is that Germany and the germans do rely over excessively on rigidity, and that this no longer , works.
But, as they say "totgesagte leben länger". People said Britain was finished in the late 70s. But it came bouncing back - 10 years later, partly as a result of Thatcher. Can Germany do the same??
Ich weiss nicht...
Answers welcome!
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Is Germany a rigid country?
The answer is a heartfelt JEIN!
The are very flexible in some ways, and very rigid in others.
They like to be told what to do, because then they are not to blame if it doesn't work/wasn't the right thing to do. They do like to have a choice of commands to follow, though. That way they can do what they like, and it is somebody else's fault.
They like to be told what to think, because then they can be sure of fitting in. Again, they like to have a choice of opinions to take - "Bild dir deine Meinung", "Spiegel leser wissen mehr"...
It is not acceptable to fail, so don't do anything that might fail. If there is a 10% risk that a venture will go wrong, it won't be started, just to be on the safe side. They will however throw caution to the winds, if the rewards are perceived to be high enough.
Then there is the "minority", who think they know better than the rules, or that the rules are only for others, and do what they want whether it's sensible or not.
Okay, to get back to serious..
Within given boundaries, they are very flexible.
Yes, Germany needs a Margaret Thatcher, urgently. It is only that their constitution prevents this, because their last Thatcher was called Hitler.
The are very flexible in some ways, and very rigid in others.
They like to be told what to do, because then they are not to blame if it doesn't work/wasn't the right thing to do. They do like to have a choice of commands to follow, though. That way they can do what they like, and it is somebody else's fault.
They like to be told what to think, because then they can be sure of fitting in. Again, they like to have a choice of opinions to take - "Bild dir deine Meinung", "Spiegel leser wissen mehr"...
It is not acceptable to fail, so don't do anything that might fail. If there is a 10% risk that a venture will go wrong, it won't be started, just to be on the safe side. They will however throw caution to the winds, if the rewards are perceived to be high enough.
Then there is the "minority", who think they know better than the rules, or that the rules are only for others, and do what they want whether it's sensible or not.
Okay, to get back to serious..
Within given boundaries, they are very flexible.
Yes, Germany needs a Margaret Thatcher, urgently. It is only that their constitution prevents this, because their last Thatcher was called Hitler.
Examining the country's language and the use of it (regardless which country) gives an insite into the mentality of the natives. German is an incredibly accurate language, with a singular word for every possible action/object/description (unlike the English language - sounds the same, we just spell 'em differently). This limits the imagination somewhat, and the ability to stretch those boundaries!
The political system makes it hard to get reform though, you almost have to get everyone to agree to a change before anything can get done, and there are two many vested interests for that to happen.
Another issue is the lack of basic understanding of economics, Germans (and most of the rest of Europe) are unwilling to accept that job destruction is a basic factor in job creation. Or as I like to say, easy fire, easy hire.
The WSJ Europe often editorials that the real problem in Europe is the idea what matters isn't the pursuit of happiness but the pursuit of higher pay, shorter work week and longer vacations.
Along the lines of rigid y you are very correct, Germans don't job hop the way Americans or Brits do, or is just the fact you have to give 3 to 6 months notice when quiting, spending 3 years training to flip burgers so on and so forth. Why in the world would a hair dresser need a Miesterbrief?
Which brings up an interesting question, it is often said that after age 45 in Germany you are unemployable, is the same true in the US and Britain. I wouldn't think so, walk into any Walmart McDonald's Tin Horton's (for you Cannucks) and you see most jobs staffed by older persons. Of course they don't pay as well but that 's not the point, there is, unlike Germany work to be had, may not pay the same or be what you want but there are jobs out there.
Another issue is the lack of basic understanding of economics, Germans (and most of the rest of Europe) are unwilling to accept that job destruction is a basic factor in job creation. Or as I like to say, easy fire, easy hire.
The WSJ Europe often editorials that the real problem in Europe is the idea what matters isn't the pursuit of happiness but the pursuit of higher pay, shorter work week and longer vacations.
Along the lines of rigid y you are very correct, Germans don't job hop the way Americans or Brits do, or is just the fact you have to give 3 to 6 months notice when quiting, spending 3 years training to flip burgers so on and so forth. Why in the world would a hair dresser need a Miesterbrief?
Which brings up an interesting question, it is often said that after age 45 in Germany you are unemployable, is the same true in the US and Britain. I wouldn't think so, walk into any Walmart McDonald's Tin Horton's (for you Cannucks) and you see most jobs staffed by older persons. Of course they don't pay as well but that 's not the point, there is, unlike Germany work to be had, may not pay the same or be what you want but there are jobs out there.
When it comes to political systems you could argue that Germanys have been too flexible in the past. I mean they've gone from monarchy to republic, to dictatorship and finally to a democracy in the space of 100 years, unlike Britain which is still stuck with a monarchy. Oh and lets not forget the way they've embraced the United States of Europe.
Perhaps if Germany could have avoided taking on the financial burden of the DDR and stayed out of the Euro and stuck to the Deutschmark the economy may have been a lot healthier.
P.S Despite their rigid ways the Germans unlike Britain still has a thriving Car industry.
Perhaps if Germany could have avoided taking on the financial burden of the DDR and stayed out of the Euro and stuck to the Deutschmark the economy may have been a lot healthier.
P.S Despite their rigid ways the Germans unlike Britain still has a thriving Car industry.
QUOTE
Germany needs a Margaret Thatcher, urgently. It is only that their constitution prevents this, because their last Thatcher was called Hitler.
In Sachsen parliament 10 NPD memebers were elected. (I think you can safely describe the NPD party as a neo-nazi organization without offending anyone) It's not out of the question that they could become the majority at some point in the future. Especially if high-unemployment continues. Main stream parties have to address the discontentment. If the NPD continue to gain support and get a majority Sachsen is fucked.QUOTE
Perhaps if Germany could have avoided taking on the financial burden of the DDR and stayed out of the Euro and stuck to the Deutschmark the economy may have been a lot healthier.
You mean West Germany not Germany. The DDR was Germany too.
It was exactly the same sort of coalitive inability to decide, which is brought on by the rules invented to prevent another Adolf, that lead to Adolf in the first place.
So there does seem a very good chance of history repeating, while none of the current lot can decide what they might be able to do against it.
So there does seem a very good chance of history repeating, while none of the current lot can decide what they might be able to do against it.
QUOTE
Examining the country's language and the use of it (regardless which country) gives an insite into the mentality of the natives. German is an incredibly accurate language, with a singular word for every possible action/object/description (unlike the English language - sounds the same, we just spell 'em differently). This limits the imagination somewhat, and the ability to stretch those boundaries!
Your initial statement is, I'm pretty sure accurate, however your comment that German has a word for every possibility compared with English is wrong. I'm not sure what the current statistics are ( maybe some of our statistic whiz kids - internet experts? - can find out) but about twenty years ago the biggest English dictionary (Oxford, I believe) had over 800,000 words in it, the biggest German dictionary either 120,000 or 180,000 (one figure is French, the other German, but I can't remember which!). I used to frequently get irritated because when looking for translation of a particular word the dictionary would offer only a word which I felt was "near, but not quite" what I wanted and often four or five Englishe words would be translated to only one German word. I must admit, after getting on for 20 years here, my English has deteriorated to the point where it doesn't happen very often now!
The curious corollary was that the same source also mentioned that in order to communicate effectively in English, you only need a vocabulary of 800 words, which was apparently significantly less than for most other languages.
Sorry to interrupt the car-chat but German tv censorship rules are not rigid for sure. VOX on Saturday night showed mad max ii (one of my favourites) and the edited bits were fairly tame i.e. some guy losing his fingers trying to catch a boomerang. The film was pretty much ruined coz of it,. for a first time viewer (if there are any by now) would have got confused with the way the scenes jumped together. i.e. little urchin lobs a boomerang, next minute a load of guys laughing hysterically for about a minute.
Then VOX goes and shows last night pitch-black at the same of day this time with heads being ripped off, people being eaten alive in a violent way by a gang of some human made-up sharp teeth and razor sharp claws and so on.
I saw starship troopers (the first one) a few weeks ago, and that wasn't edited.
Doesn't make any sense, and given the stuff shown on the music channels, it all adds up to a one big random mess, perhaps they roll dice to determine which scenes to cut.
Then VOX goes and shows last night pitch-black at the same of day this time with heads being ripped off, people being eaten alive in a violent way by a gang of some human made-up sharp teeth and razor sharp claws and so on.
I saw starship troopers (the first one) a few weeks ago, and that wasn't edited.
Doesn't make any sense, and given the stuff shown on the music channels, it all adds up to a one big random mess, perhaps they roll dice to determine which scenes to cut.
@RMA
Most sources I have come across on the web and in other media state English has the most words of any language
As of today, according to the Global Language Monitor (which appears to be mostly about English so not that global!), the approximate word count for English is 862,293. However, this figure I suspect includes all derivatives and senses of words as I read somewhere that there are only about 250,000 distinct words. If you include scientific and technical terms in the word count then the estimates increase considerably ranging from one million to two million. Although, this does open up the debate about how words are classified...
In comparison, estimates of the number of words in German are somewhere around the 185,000 (100,000 were listed in the Duden-Universalwörterbuch in 2003) mark compared to less than 100,000 in French.
However, the average persons vocabulary ranges from 20,000 words to 45,000 words depending on education and regardless of which language they speak.
Most sources I have come across on the web and in other media state English has the most words of any language
As of today, according to the Global Language Monitor (which appears to be mostly about English so not that global!), the approximate word count for English is 862,293. However, this figure I suspect includes all derivatives and senses of words as I read somewhere that there are only about 250,000 distinct words. If you include scientific and technical terms in the word count then the estimates increase considerably ranging from one million to two million. Although, this does open up the debate about how words are classified...
In comparison, estimates of the number of words in German are somewhere around the 185,000 (100,000 were listed in the Duden-Universalwörterbuch in 2003) mark compared to less than 100,000 in French.
However, the average persons vocabulary ranges from 20,000 words to 45,000 words depending on education and regardless of which language they speak.
Thanks Loopy, interesting to see that things haven't changed much over the years.
In my case, I think after nearly 20 years in Germany, my vocabulary in English has shrunk to more like the 800 word minimum than 20- to 45,000. My English teacher - in secondary school my worst placing was third in class - whom I once presented a 14 page essay on John Donne's love poems , is probably turning in his grave!
In my case, I think after nearly 20 years in Germany, my vocabulary in English has shrunk to more like the 800 word minimum than 20- to 45,000. My English teacher - in secondary school my worst placing was third in class - whom I once presented a 14 page essay on John Donne's love poems , is probably turning in his grave!
, is probably turning in his grave!
Don't worry Roy, if you can still do 800, you're not that bad...
You have to differentiate between the number of words people recognise and how many they would actually actually use. In fact, most general social exchanges seldom require more than 500-1000 words. A typical total working vocabulary is more like 2000-4000 words in use, not 20000-45000, which is the general recognition range in tests.
The tests usually consist of about 600 words chosen at random from the respective dictionary, the percentage of correct identifications is then multiplied by the total words in the dictionary to estimate statistically how many words would be understood. That leaves the question of the number of obscure words in the dictionary, which most people wouldn't recognise, so these test results are pretty debatable.
You have to differentiate between the number of words people recognise and how many they would actually actually use. In fact, most general social exchanges seldom require more than 500-1000 words. A typical total working vocabulary is more like 2000-4000 words in use, not 20000-45000, which is the general recognition range in tests.
The tests usually consist of about 600 words chosen at random from the respective dictionary, the percentage of correct identifications is then multiplied by the total words in the dictionary to estimate statistically how many words would be understood. That leaves the question of the number of obscure words in the dictionary, which most people wouldn't recognise, so these test results are pretty debatable.
" The curious corollary was that the same source also mentioned that in order to communicate effectively in English, you only need a vocabulary of 800 words, which was apparently significantly less than for most other languages. "
Even 800 words sound far too many. In certain areas of Scouseland, they have it down to an admirable 80 words ... a World record for brevity. Raffles. :-))
Even 800 words sound far too many. In certain areas of Scouseland, they have it down to an admirable 80 words ... a World record for brevity. Raffles. :-))
@ Raffles
@ Mike, thanks for that, never thought to mention the distinction between active and passive vocabulary. Do you think that people with a language that contains less words would also have a smaller active vocabulary? Not ever come across any information on this, although I would guess that the active vocabulary in most languages would be about the same, as you mention most words are used during social exchange so it should be about the same regardless of language...
@ Mike, thanks for that, never thought to mention the distinction between active and passive vocabulary. Do you think that people with a language that contains less words would also have a smaller active vocabulary? Not ever come across any information on this, although I would guess that the active vocabulary in most languages would be about the same, as you mention most words are used during social exchange so it should be about the same regardless of language...
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