Based in UK but working in Germany

OK here we go another request for information. I'm self-employed here in Germany but considering basing myself in the UK and carrying on working over here (along with Japan, Russia and possibly China) my questions are:

1) How long per year do I have to be in the UK to be considered UK based (and are there any ways round this?)

2) As recently I seem to be a bit of a wanderer (well gypsy isnt PC) when it comes to work is there any way I can get to that blissful state of paying no tax?

3) How would I then be registered here in Germany, I rent a flat at the moment do I have to then register it as my 2. Wohnsitz and my address in UK as Hauptwohnsitz?

I'm sure I will think of more questions depending on the response but that'll do for a start.

Thanks

Pete

I cant really help much but as regards to registering your place in germany as a second wohnsitz, I know the Germans can be a bit fussy about it. A friend of mine had a flat in Munich since her student days, it was her home but then she started working in Ulm and had a flat there. She was in Ulm during the week and Munich at the weekend. She wanted to have her flat in Munich as her Hauptwohnsitz but because she was working and living more of the time in Ulm, they kept hassling her with letters to change her Hauptwohnsitz to Ulm. As for not paying tax I think thats impossible unless you ARE a gypsy. If you want to be recognised as having a base in the Uk, you would surely have to pay tax there. I cant help you any more im afraid coz I dont know a lot Hope you get some more helpful responses

More than 65, I think. Might be none, though, if you have an address there, visit it regularly, and always travel from there, and can prove it.


Depends how creative you are

Remain outside the EU for 187 days, or more. Used to be valid for GB, hope it still is, coz I'm planning something similar..


That should be your free choice, although I can't understand renting a flat you'll hardly ever be in. If you're only here for short periods, you don't have to register your residence, if you are living in somebody else's, or a company flat, up to 3 months per year, or was it 6?

It is always possible to have an Nth residence any place. Some places will want to see a little tax money for it, though.

Again, be creative: Don't have a flat here, or there, have an address in Britain, and set subsiduary offices off against any tax wherever you want.

Don't fancy Russia, or Japan that much, but maybe we can have a chinese beer together sometime

Of course, Bonn's not that far away from here

As far as the flat goes I am at the moment spending approximately 10 days per month in it so the reference to being a Gypsy it isnt far off

The bit about no tax is just something I heard that you can base yorself in UK but if you spend less than 6 months per year there there is no compulsion to pay tax (I have heard nothing to back this up so at the moment it is just rumour I just wondered if anyone else had experience) and as I would be based in UK and additionally not working all the time in Germany there would be no tax to pay here either (I am purely refering to income tax)

@ Mike_a

Cheers that's along the lines of what I heard, how do you mean about applying for GB? Do you mean for tax purposes GB is not classified as EU?

Sounds good that's probably what I will be doing if it works out.


From how things are going at the moment I will be working to a large extent in Japan but possibly involved in a Chinese project (that part has to be confirmed still but keeping my fingers crossed) and small jobs always crop up in Russia from time to time. Will also need to be in Germany for significant periods as my main (almost exclusive) customer is German and I work mainly as a sub-contracter.

As far as beer is concerned I never say no to that .

There are different regs for working inside the EU and outside. It's all part of the double taxation regulations.

If you spend 187+ days anyplace, that's where you're supposed to pay tax. If you're less than 6 months here, you don't have to either. To be more precise, it's where you mostly work. If you're from an EU country and work mostly in another, even if you are not resident there, you pay tax where you mostly work.

There is then an adjustment between the respective tax authorities. An ex of mine now lives in Belgium, but still works in Düsseldorf. She is assessed for tax in Germany, but there is some sort of "adjustment" for living in Belgium. I think it works on the basis of X workdays in D, Y non-workdays in B, so she pays the German FA x/365 her german dues and y/365 what she'd be due in B and the germans pass that on to the Belgians. She did explain it to me in detail, but I was thinking about something else at the time :$

Anyway, that's the EU...

If you are outside, they expect you to sort the tax straight on a 187+days basis, so if you are 187+ outside, you don't have to pay any here.

I think they like to have confirmation here, that you're paying your tax someplace, or they want you to pay here, if you are resident, or a national, because "Sie müssen irgendwo bezahlen!".

In GB, they used to consider that you are not liable, if you spend less than 6 months there, I hope and believe they still do.

I have heard of people getting a statement from the Inland Revenue to the effect that they have "satisfactorily completed their tax returns in the UK", but that meant they had told the IR that they were out of the country, and so didn't pay any tax. The Germans thought they had payed in UK. I have heard the same with Spain.

In fact, in that case, the person had his home in UK, was registered as resident in Spain, and was working here and invoicing through an Irish limited. As the Spaniards take a similar line to UK, he claimed to have confirmations from both that his tax affairs were satifactory. God knows what they'd do to him if he got caught, but everybody was apparently satisfied, and he apparently wasn't paying any tax... and doing 10/4 between here and UK. Don't have proof for it, so it could be a line... An dit would only work if the german's didn't know you were here.

As far as the time outside is concerned, you just have to prove your in and out times with the appropriate tickets. Hotel bills, or hire car / filling station receipts help there too.

I just think being officially resident in Germany would make unnecessary complications. Much better just to have an office here, and sleep on the floor

Depending on what you think is going to happen to the State Pension over the next 20 years one thing to bear in mind is that if you're not paying tax anywhere you're also not earning any pension entitlement.

I managed to "creatively" avoid paying tax in both UK and Germany for about 5 years late '80s early '90s. Now those 5 years are missing from my pension entitlement in both countries.

If you don't consider the state pension is going to be worth anything in 20 years (which is a distinct possibility) then this is completely irrelevant - just be aware of the situation.

Edit: BTW, I also had a Ltd. running over much of that period and never had any problems with it.

Paying tax here, or there doesn't earn you pension rights.

You can elect to make pension contributions here, and you can make voluntary NI contributions there, to maintain your entitlements.

Of course, then somebody might want to know where you have the money from. On the other hand, you could do something creative with the money you would normally have given to tax & contributions.

That should enable you to buy back entitlements later, and have some left over, if you want. Or you can build a nice little nest egg with it. Or you can assume everything's going to go tits up anyway, enjoy it while you can and see what happens later

It's a wondeful world really, and life is beautiful

And I used to think that I was pedantic! I can see I'm going to have to phrase things a bit more carefully when you're around! I was, of course, talking about "under normal circumstances"! To be serious, I just meant to highlight the fact that when playing such games - or even when simply being "normally" self-employed, when you're younger it's very easy to think that a pension is something that is so far in your future, that it's irrelevant. I just meant to point out that it's something one ought to take two minutes to think about.

I'm not sure what the situation is in the UK, I suspect that if you're self-employed, you're probably free to do what you want as far as a pension is concerned. In Germany it's a little different. When I first originally registered here, back in the early '90s, I let myself be talked into being "freiwillig" insured by my Steuerberater. What I didn't realise at the time, was that once you're "freiwillig" in, there's no way back out and I cursed the situation a few times in the following years.

Now, some 15 years later, circumstances both personal and national having changed substantially, I'm eternally grateful to that Steuerberater! At least I'm going to have something of a pension rather than nothing when I'm eventually forced to give up work, which I hope won't be for a long time yet!

Wasn't really aimed at you, more at those here, who do seem to believe that paying their tax entitles them to all sorts of benefits


If you do the demographic and economic extrapolations, you're bound to get a bier or 2 out of it, eh? Maybe even each week!

To be honest, that's about what I expected from my UK pension, bearing in mind the inflation of the '70s. I was very pleasantly surprised to discover that, at least at present, it ought to be substantially more than that (1 beer per day? :$ ). I just hope it still looks as good when I get there!

As far as pensions are concerned, seeing as I'm self employed anyway I dont pay into the normal Rentenversicherung but have my own private nestegg ta very much which I, of course, intend to keep paying into.

You need to be in the UK for 183 days or more (and they don't include travel days in that).

You can get a useful Inland Revenue booklet about it, giving you the regulations. They will send it to you if you phone them.

www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk

hth

RMA,

how do you get freiwillig as far as pension is concerned in this country? I've just moved over here and am trying to figure out what the possible options are because I have no desire to be paying a huge whack of my salary to the germans when I only plan on being here for a couple of years...

... much rather build up that nest egg you were talking about! Tips please...

This is only possible if you are self-employed. If you are working for a company, you automatically land in the state scheme.

Steuerberater will usually try and talk you into the "freiwillige" insurance and in fact if you finish up staying here longer it's probably quite sensible. By the way, I should point out, although the pension is the main thing that people talk about, the other thing you are then insured for is accidents at work. If you finish up seriously injured following an accident at work they will pay up, including in the worst case, a disability pension. (You might need to take out legal insurance to be sure of getting this though! :$ ).

If you are convinced that you are not going to be staying here long and are self-employed, then just tell your Steuerberater that you don't want to play.

What the IR actually say:

---8<--------------------
- have totalled less than 183 days in any tax year, and
- have averaged less than 91 days a tax year. (The average is taken over the period of absence up to a maximum of four years - see paragraph 2.10. Any days spent in the UK because of exceptional circumstances beyond your control, for example the illness of yourself or a member of your immediate family, are not normally counted for this purpose.)
-------------------->8---

The German regulation is the same.

This offers an interesting possibility: 2*183 = 366 = 1 Leap Year.

As the departure and arrival days are not counted, you could leave one in the evening and arrive in the other in the morning. In this case you would have been nowhere for 2 days travelling, so if you travelled once a month, you would be nowhere for 24 days

If you manage your time between 4 countries, always travelling over midnight, it would easy to never be in any country for more 91 days in one tax year. With the right travel plan, you could manage that with 3 countries:

3 x 91 = 273, 366 - 273 = 93, 93 / 2 = 46, 5, let's say 47 overnight trips, if you spend a few days someplace else on holiday: 2 * 2 weeks = 28 days, so you only need 33 overnight trips. Add a bit of longer travel (eg.Far East to EU), with a stop-over, and it's no problem

That way you can be based where you want and never be liable for Tax anyplace, irrespective of double taxation treaties...

@ mike_a

I think the response is "BINGO"

Mike I have to applaud you for even wanting to sit down and work all that out! But it makes interesting reading. You aren't such a windbag after all...
(Did i really say that? :$ )

Hellie:

If you want to come here, start practicing... If you though British Bureaucracy was long winded, you'll find they are whippets in comparison to the german dachshund.

After 20 years of that, you can calculate these things in the back of your head


Some like what I write, some don't. Those who don't, don't have to read it... But then they should perhaps reserve the tone of their comments, or at least try to understand the point... The points we have to live with are not always as simple as we'd like them to be.

Anybody can think and say what they like of me. Sticks and Stones...

"I am what I am..." and can admit to it.

Makes me want to break out in song

I agree with you Mike, I am what I am too and if people don't like it, then thats their hard luck.

I read what I want to read on here (including your posts ) otherwise I quickly flick through them and onto the next.

I don't think I'd be coming to Germany if I didn't have a German partner who knows the 'procedures' out there (sounds a minefield!) but I'm very happy to knowing that I can pick it up along the way