Various tips for foreigners moving to Berlin

Hello

I am applying for a job in Berlin. If I get the job (it is an English speaking position) here are some questions i'd like the answers to if possible!

1. what would I need to do to ensure a smooth transition? - Paperwork, ID, Healthcare for my husband and I

2. What is it like to rent housing in Berlin? What are the procedures, what can I expect in terms of rental costs?

3. How far is a salary of £1500 likely to go? What is the tax system like?

4. What is the social life like in Berlin?

Lots of questions...sorry but thank you to those who answer.

All the best.

FiBi

Topics merged by admin

Hi Im a 23yr old guy from Australia (currently in London) looking to move to Berlin in summer.

I don't speak any German and was wondering if anyone has any info on what kind of work I can get and if its hard to find.

I was thinking bar work in a tourist pub since I don't speak german.

Also If anyone has any tips on finding a place to rent which is central(ish) and cheap? Or know any good areas near live music and a good nightlife?

Any other information that might help would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Thorpey

Topics merged by admin

www.immoscout24.de is good for finding a flat, it is all in German, but you should be able to work it out. There are lots of threads about nice parts of Berlin to live in

I live in mitte and think the nightlife is good and it's very close to Prenzlauer Berg which has great cafes and bars too (especially along Kastanienallee and Kollwitzplatz).

Some of the threads below might help, but generally just read up on the forum

Best districts for a student to live in Berlin
Life in the Kreuzberg district of Berlin

Hello

I am thinking of teaching in berlin. Can anyone help me with some questions I have.

1. What should I be paying for renting a 2 bed apartment in a reasonable area in Berlin, close enough to coffee shops/bars etc.
2.Are there fully furnished apartments available?
3.Will 3000 euros GROSS be enough to live on? What could I expect to be able to do with this kind of income?
4.What is the transport system like?

Any other advice much appreciated. Would love to hear from anyone, living in berlin or not.

Thank you in advance.

Fibiz

Topics merged by admin

Public transport is excellent, can't answer the rest

Hi Fibi,

Hope all goes well moving to Berlin - it is a great city, and social life is fantastic - it's what you want to make of it, but everything is possible. As for answers to some of your questions, here's my input.

A 2 bedroom apartment would probably cost in the region of 600-800 euros, plus heating/electricity/phone. Of course it depends on the area you want to live in (look elsewhere on the site for threads that discuss the different areas).

Tax is high, and health insurance is compulsory. However, the service is good. If you are employed by a German company, they take care of all the tax related paperwork - it is pretty much the same as PAYE. If your husband is not working, then you can get his tax allowance, if he is working, then you can split it. If you are going to be self employed, then you need to register as such - you will need paperwork to show you are qualified in the profession that you register, and the paperwork will have to be officially translated into German. (In Germany, you can only work as a self employed professional if you can prove you have appropriate qualifications). If self employed, then you will need ot find a tax consultant (steuerberater) to look after your book-keeping and tax - there are plenty of them about.

I would think that if you are employed by a company, and earn 3000 euros per month, your take home should be about 1800 euros after tax and health insurance (just an educated guess - check an expert for details). If you are self employed, there are lots of things you can claim against tax (e.g. part of your rent for office costs), and you can register for VAT, meaning you can claim back VAT on computers etc. (this is one reason to get a good steuerberater - they can minimise your tax payments if you are self employed).

Public transport in Berlin is excellent. There is an extensive network of city trains (UBahn, SBahn and trams), as well as a huge bus network - there is no need for a car if you live in Berlin. If you are planning to stay for at least a year, the best value is to subscribe to a yearly ticket - costs currently 57 euros per month for the AB zones (covers all of the center of Berlin, and well beyond).

Apartments are usually let unfurnished - furnished apartments are usually only available for short term rent (usually when somebody goes away for a couple of months, and sub-lets their apartment). In general you will rent an apartment - there are houses with gardens in the outskirts, but they are usually family homes, or in very expensive areas. A two bedroom apartment would actually be advertised as a 3 room apartment (meaning a kitchen, bathroom and 3 other rooms). For two people, you will probably want at least 65sq. meters.

One final thing - if you have kids, or are planning them, Berlin is a great place to bring kids up.

Hope this helps,

Colin

Hi Colin!

Thanks for all your advice! Much appreciated. No children and not planning any for a while, but thanks for the info. There are few places that are nice enough to bring up children.

Your advice about the apartments was great. So I assume I should be looking for UNFURNISHED if I am to be here a couple of years. The thing is that someone mentioned that they dont have kitchens! I'm really worried about moving to Berlin and not having a kitchen. Where do you get one from? How long would it take to be delivered. How much is one likely to cost? Is it right to assume that most Germans have free standing kitchen and taken the, with them when they move as they would any other furniture?

Would 1800 euros be enough to live on assuming after rent/bills I have about 1000 euros left?

Also would my husband have to have a tax card even if he wasnt planning to work?

How much would Health Insurance be for a Male, 28, normal health?

Again. Thanks for the advice.
Fibiz

If your husband is not working, and assuming he has a EU passport, then he won't need a tax card, and your health insurance should cover him as far as I am aware. However, that is only if everything is done correctly and legal - also if you are working self-employed, it may be different. It may be better for your husband to register as a student, if he can find a course, as that helps his status. If he is not working, then as I said you can claim the best tax class, which effectively gives you his tax allowances.

As for the kitchens, it depends - some apartments do and som do not have kitchens. The kitchen should always have a cooker and sink minimum. Sometimes, people take the kitchen, and sometimes the apartment has just been renovated, and they may in that case offer you some money towards putting in a kitchen - it all depends. Also, if someone has put in a kitchen, and wants to leave, they will often try to sell it to the new tenant (look for "Abstand" in the ad). The cost of a kitchen depends on what you want, and how much you want to do yourself. You can get a new washing machine for 300 euros, and a reasonable new fridge/freezer for 300 euros also. You'll pick up reasonable worktop and kitchen units in IKEA (there are lots of alternatives to IKEA) at an OK price. Do the work yourself, and it should not be too costly. So don't panic, look at the apartment ads first, and see what the situation is.

Remember, when I said 1800 euros, that was an estimate - best to check with a professional - I seem to remember that I found German/English web site which has a German tax calculator on it - Google for that and see what you find.

All the best for now,

Colin

Hi again Colin

Yep - I worked it out with the calculator and got about that - I mean say I got 50% tax that would leave me with 1500 Euros.

What im really asking is how much does it cost to do the following:

Stay in a relatively decent area in a flat with 2 bedrooms
Go out for a few drinks 2/3 times a week
Go out for a meal once a week
save a little
buy weekly food
pay for bills (heat light water council tax equiv.)

Thanks for all your help.

I mean - it's just brill that I get Hubby's tax allowance. How fab is that? Very generous of the tax authorities. AND you can claim back expenses relating to travelling to your work. Ab fab I say!

Hi Fibi,

I think that you'll do better than 50% after tax - in particular if you have the full tax allowance, you'll do much better than that.

You should do OK with the flat at 700 euros per month.
Drinks depend on what you're into, and how much you drink - but a couple of beers or glasses of wine should be 10-20 euros per person per night.
Food, also depends on what you want, but no problem getting a decent meal for 15-25 euros per person in a basic Italian, Indian, or the myriad of cafes throughout the city
Weekly food, that's tough, but you should be able to get by with 50 euros and a bit per person per week for food and basic household stuff

remember that when you rent an apartment, you'll need to put down a deposit up front of 2 to 3 months rent - you get it back when you leave the apartment as you found it. Also note you should avoid paying estate agents (Makler) - they will look for 1 to 3 months rent in payment, and they are useless - in Berlin there are lots of appartments available direct form the owners, or the managers of the apartment block (Hausvervaltung) - look for 'provisionfrei' in the ad.

Eating and drinking is pretty good value relative to the UK. There is a great variety of places to eat in Prenzlauer Berg, Kreuzberg, Fredrichshein and Schöneberg.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the Euro is really strong relative to the UK Pound at the moment (currently 1 euro is 80p). This means that when you come over, your existing money may not be worth what you think - however if you are saving ,and returning to the UK in the future,that's good news.

Hope this helps, and if you get over here, we can get together for a drink.

Colin

P.S. of course if you husband was working also, you'll have more to spend!!!

Forgot to mention my thoughts on bills. Our apartment is 120sq meters, and we currently pay per month 70 euros for electricity and 50 euros for gas (electric cooking, gas heating and hot water) - I think we can do better than that, and will soon shop around for cheaper deals.. Water is usually covered in the "Nebenkosten" - i.e. utility charges added to your rent, which also covers garbage collection, and house maintenance - in our case, the rent is about 880 euros per month, and the Nebenkosten about 130 euros per month.

We pay 49 euros per month to Deutche Telekom for telephone and very fast broadband. Again you can do a bit better, but typical bundled telephone and broadband packages start at around 20 euros per month. Mobile phone costs, like in the UK depend on what you want. I pay 30 euros per month on a contract with Debitel, which also covers calls to land lines within germany.

You'll be glad to hear that there is no equivalent of Council Tax in Berlin.

Colin

Hi

Again, thanks for the info. It's not that my husband doesn't work - actually he does but will not be working 'in' Germany. He is a PhD student and receives a tax free grant, but the grant will be from the UK, rather than income earned from Germany. It's very complex and I am positive that this will complicate matters greatly with respect to tax cards etc...do you know? I was wondering about whether or not we could both live on my wage in case he does not qualify for the grant once we move from the UK so he can carry on his research.

Anyway, I'm getting very excited (even looking at the Thursday night Drinks in Berlin posts!!!) but I haven't even gone for my interview yet so might not get the job or even be coming to Berlin... but I do hope I get it. Germany sounds fab.
Your advice is much appreciated. Must meet for a drink if (no...WHEN!) we come over!

Thanks again

Fibiz

I was only kidding on the hubby working situation - I guessed it was something like you explained. Anyway, something else to remember is that Germany and the UK have a double taxation agreement - this means that in the year that you move, you get your full tax allowances in both countries. So if you are currently working in the UK and paying tax, you will be able to reclaim overpayment at the end of 2008-2009 tax year (5 April 2009), while in Germany you will get full year tax allowances for 2008 (German tax year is 1 Jan to 31 Dec) - so your tax burden in 2008 will be lower as you will have accrued tax allowances since Jan 2008.

With regard ot your hubby's UK PhD grant, I suspect that it depends on who pays the grant. If it's the local council, then if you leave, I doubt they will want to continue - whereas if it is some external source such as an industrial partner, they may continue to pay. One way or the other, I don't see any reason why the German tax authorities need to know anything, as from their perspective your hubby is a "kept man", and as long as he is not looking to claim any German social benefits, then I don't think they are interested.

Colin

Just thought further about my last post - as you will be looking to claim the joint tax allowances, hubby will also have to register for tax, and get his tax card ("Lohnsteuerkarte"). However from memory this is just an administrative procedure, and I don't think there is any requirement to state your job. When you get a job, you give your Lohnsteuerkarte to your employer, and they use that to pay your tax - just like PAYE in the UK.

Colin

Regarding kitchen in berlin flats: If you want a whole kitchen in the flat, look for EBK (Einbauküche). Most of the new buildings (last 50 years) have one in different quality. Old buildings normally only have EBK if they're shortly and expensive renovated.
We are staying in a lively and young neighbourhood and pay about 650 euro (including extras/telephone/internet flat) for our medium sized 2-bedroom flat, but you'll have to be lucky to find such a rather cheap flat. Be prepared to pay about 700 to 850 (including most of the stuff mentioned).
eating and drinking can be ridiculously cheap, if you know where to go - there a nice restaurants with main dishes for 5 euro and there are bars with half a litre great beer for 2 euro... there is of course no upper limit...

Hello all!

I seem to be one of the very rare Canadians on here- I'm about to move over- I have a tentative (pretty much- provided you don't completely screw up on the first day) job offer from a company in Berlin who will sponsor me for a work permit. I'm expecting to make about $2kE a month (more in the summer- my job is seasonally dependent). From what I see on here, I'm expecting that I will bring home about $1200E after taxes? I'm willing in the summer to pay up to $600 for a place- I'm actually expecting to have a roommate come August when another friend of mine is planning to move over from the UK- on the other hand, I can look for a roommate if she doesn't turn up.

A few things about me- 31, anglo-scotian heritage (how PC was that?) 2 cats (I have their immigration papers) and I read and write more german than I can verbally understand. Or- to put a finer point on it- Berliners speak SO fast, and for the rest of germany, I'm a Hoch-Deutsch only kind of girl. Any dialect and I'm lost!

I had hoped to find an empty apartment before I arrived, but from what I read on here, that might not be the best idea. I'm curious about some of the areas though. I'm an Altbau girl, and I have seen some fab ones (I like the old stoves, mouldings, etc) with the Tiergarten/Moabit area. How is this area? I know it's on the outskirts of Wedding, and I've heard that Wedding can be a little rough.

A few people have told me Prenzl, F'schain and Kreuzberg are great places, on the other hand, they seem to be expensive, and I'm not generally the type who likes to pay for Trendy for Trendy's sake. What do you think? Any ideas?When I've stayed in Berlin before, I've been in Charlottenberg, so I've been looking there and Wilmersdorf as well.

I'm arriving a Month tomorrow. Any advise would be fab!

Zobirdie

1200 neto for an IT job sounds a little bit low.

Yet another plea for advice/info here Im afraid, many thanks to the people who give up their time to share their wisdom...

I am moving across to Berlin in about three weeks, initially to spend 8 weeks @ the Goethe Institute, staying with a host family. After this (late June), I will probably be looking to move out and take a room in shared accommodation, and try to find myself gainful employment doing just about anything.

I live in the UK, always have done and was born here. However my father was German, and moved over to England when he was 22 (which incidentally is my age). I don't hold a German passport, but I am fairly certain that I am eligible for one (my sister holds one). Now I know that as an EU citizen anyway I am absolved from any restrictions on labour etc or any requirement for a visa, but is there any benefit to me in being classfied as a German national rather than a foreign EU citizen? If so would it therefore be in my interest to apply for a German passport and claim German nationality? Could I claim to be a German national irrespective of the fact that I dont hold a German passport? So many questions. I appreciate that these are probably better addressed to the German Embassy but Im finding it frustratingly difficult to get hold of anyone there to answer my questions. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Simple answer is NO - you don't need to become a German citizen. All citizens of EU countries have to be treated equally (not sure about the recent EU countries, but certainly as a UK citizen, you are treated exactly as a German citizen). The only thing that you don't get to do is vote in the German parliment elections - you get to vote in the local and European ones.

Also note that Germany does not recognise dual citizenship, so if you get a German passport, you have to give up your UK one! So my advice is don't worry, you will be fine here as a UK citizen.

Colin

Thats brilliant Colin thanks very much for the advice mate.

You don´t have to give up your UK citizenship ... Germany does recognise dual citizenship of UK citizens

Doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit für EU-Bürger

The slightly longer answer is yes. Although you have freedom of movement within the EU as a UK citizen, you do need under EU law to demonstrate that you will not be a burden on the host country's social system. So you will need to make sure that you have health insurance and not expect to apply for any means tested benefits once you get here. The local council (Bürgeramt) may check up on at least the medical insurance bit of this if you want to stay longer than 3 months and they may want you to apply for a Freizügigkeitsbescheinigung document (which basically states that you are a EU citizen but can be requested by pedantic potential employers or if you want to apply for state subsidised language classes etc). One of the criteria for this document is that you have to provide evidence of your health insurance. Although, as with many things in Germany, how stricty this is applied depends on the person sitting at the desk at your local council office.

I have a friend who has just started this: http://pleaseholdtheline.blogspot.com

As I said it has just started, might be some help in the future maybe.

My experience is different. I returned to Berlin last December. I am Irish, my wife is Ukranian, and we have an 18 month old boy who is Irish also). All we had to do was register as usual at the burgeramt (Anmelden), and then they sent us to anotler office, where we were issued with our permits to live in Germany. There were no checks on our financial status, medical insurance etc. All they wanted to see were our passports, and marriage certificate (needed because my wife is Ukranian).

The situation has changed in recent years, and Germany has come in line with most other EU countries. There is no need to visit the Auslanderbehorde or anything else complicated. The situation is that Germany must treat EU citizens (as I said in my earlier post, don't know the status of the more recent EU entrant countries) as though they were German with regard to residence, working and social care rights. In the past they did not do so, but it looks like things are much simpler now. So you can't just claim unemployment money, but neither can Germans if they've not paid tax for a qualifying period. However, as far as I understand, you can claim social help from day one, and you can also claim kindergeld (children's allowance) etc.

I still do not believe that Germany recognises dual citizenship - this is the information we have been given by the Irish embassy in the past, and I've not seen any evidence that is going to change. However it's not an issue

Colin

Another point regarding health insurance is that before traveling within the EU, you should make sure that you have a EU Health Insurance Card, which is freely available to all EU citizens. This card replaces the old E111 form previously required. It means that as a UK citizen, you are entitled to basic health care in Germany. Now this is not supposed to be used for long term health care (although I know of some people in Berlin who depend on it for their long term health care - which is crazy). The idea is to cover people traveling for holidays, business etc. As mentioned earlier in this topic, you should get proper German health insurance if staying longer than 3 months (although I don't believe anyone will force you to do so).

As soon as you start working, you will be forced into the health insurance system. It is a bit expensive, but the system is based on the concept of "Universal Health Care", and if not in the private healthcare system, what you pay depends on what you earn - and your employer pays 50%. Also note that there are special terms in the public health system for Students.

Hope this helps,

Colin

Dude, just because the Bezirksamt Steglitz-Zehlendorf didn't want to see proof of health insurance doesn't mean that you can generalise across the whole country. Try using the search button to see what other recent experiences people have had and maybe qualify your statement a little. If you indeed are a seasoned resident of Germany, you must have noticed that there is a lot of variation in the interpretation of rules, often within the same office.


Did anyone say old EU citizens should drag themselves up to the Auslanderbehorde in Westhaven?


Can you provide a reference for this? I'm sure that loads of people would like to have access to social help (Sozial Hilfe) but think that they are not eligible.

It was Bezirksamt Mitte, and the woman there insisted that this was the procedure everywhere (by which I assume she meant Berlin, but I'd be surprised if it was only Berlin - however as Germany is federal, it is of course possible that other states have different administration procedures). My point is that Germany finally appears to be moving to implement procedures correctly as an EU member state.

My point on the Auslanderbehorde is that it used to be the case that all foreigners wanting to live in Germany legally for more than 3 months had to go there, and do all the paperwork, including interview (I know, I had to do when I first lived in Berlin 12 years ago or so), and that this is no longer the case - everything was done in the Bizirksamt in 10 minutes for the whole family.

With regard to social help, I said that this is my understanding - it is certainly the way it is supposed to operate in all EU countries. The point is that all EU citizens (again only commenting on old EU country citizens) are to be treated equally with regard to work, education, healthcare etc. I cannot say for sure that Germany has got round to implementing this, but I thought that this was indeed the case. I know for a fact that childrens allowance is paid from day one (as soon as you've got your Anmeldung, and you register with the Jungendsamt), as we get the monthly payment for our son. Also I know that we pay the same for Kita costs (which is heavily subsidised) as German parents.

Claiming social help in Germany is not easy, even for Germans - of course there is means testing, and lots of checking done before it is paid. I reiterate that I am not talking about unemployment money - this is only available to people who have been paying tax for the required period (whether they are German or not, the same rule applies).

Hope this clarifies things,

Colin

Perhaps you can help this woman out as well then.

Double citizenship is only accepted under special circumstances (if you are non-German becoming German).

I've given my twopennys worth - not sure how much I can help, I think the big problem with that lady is that she is panicing. Hopefully she can calm down a little and get her situation sorted out when the baby is born.

However again, I think the issue is that if she comes here she will be treated as a German would - however of course she is at a disadvantage, as people who have grown up here will know the system, and they will have all their paperwork already in the system. The problem for new arrivals (again assuming old EU countries) is often just getting to grips with the system. Thats where this forum helps a bit, with some people being able to give professinal, and people like myself simply providing information based on my experience.

Regards,

Colin

Thanks for all the responses, although I must confess I am still a little confused - so dual nationality is permitted for a UK national taking on German citizenship?

Once I have completed my 8 weeks at the Goethe Institut as I say I will be looking to work but if I dont find employment straight away will I be eligible for whatever the dole is called in Germany either as an EU or German national? Is this a nightmare to sign up for (esp. bearing in mind my far-from-perfect German)?

As I said, my understanding form official information is that Germany never recognises dual citizernship - however others have said this is not the case, so if you really want to go that way, you'll have to talk tot he relevant German authorities yourself to get a clear answer.

As I have previously said, it does not matter if you are a German or UK citizen, you are entitled to the same treatment with regard to social benefits. There are two things of relevance here. Unemployment payments, "Arbeitslosengeld" is only available if you have been working and paying tax for a certain period (don't know what the period, is but I'm sure it is not less than 6 months). So you have no chance of getting that. Then there is social help "Sozialhilfe". As discussed elsewhere on the forum, as a resident from an (old) EU state you are, as far as I know you are entitled to this in principal, but you will be means tested. So if you have any fiinancial resources (via a partner, or savings , student or work income), these will be measured (probably lots of other things they'll want to know that I don't know about), and if above a threshold, you won't get anything. They don't like giving this money to anyone, so you'll really have to convince them you NEED the help to survive.If you lie to them, and they find out, you will be in deep doo-doo, so don't be tempted to do so.

My advice is get yourself set up with some work as soon as you can - ideally before you arrive, or start looking as soon as you get here - the summer is coming so finding casual work should not be too difficult. If you plan to stay a long time, get a tax card "Lohnsteuerkarte" and start paying tax, as then you'll start qualifying for benefits correctly at an earlier stage. Plan not to expect to get any money form the state, and then you won't get yourself stressed out later.

Colin

As colin says, the germans aren't going to give you german taxpayers' money when you haven't worked a day there-however you can sign on in the UK (allowing for any disqualification period if you voluntarily left work etc.) BEFORE you leave for Germany and there's a form E303 (I think) you get in the UK and take with you to Germany (to the Arbeitsamt) and you can get your UK benefits in Germany for at least 13 weeks but you must be seeking work of course. After the 13 weeks the money stops but you might find it easier to get Sozialhilfe if you're "in the system" as unemployed rather than just showing up asking for german money with broken german.

Again, I have some idea what I am talking about (double citizenship) because I have friends with double citizenship and because I am giving up mine to take the German one.

Hello!

I have read through the whole topic but I am still a little confused. Apparently I need things spelled out for me. I am a 21 year old Canadian girl moving to Berlin next week. I already have a working holiday visa and insurance and whatnot, as well as a place to live when I get there. What exactly do I need to do and where do I need to go to register when I get to Berlin? Thanks!!!

You´ll have to register at your local district Einwohnermeldeamt ...

I don't doubt that there are people with double citizenship, however if you tell the German authorities that you have another citizenship, they will take your German one away. The Irish embassy informed me some years ago when I was discussing the situation with regard to my daughters Irish passport that they simply don't tell the Germans, and then people can keep both citizenships, however the offical German line is that if you are a citizen of another country, you cannot be a German citizen.

Once you know which area you will be living in (Bizirk - e.g. Steglitz, prenzlauer Berg, Mitte etc), you go to the local Bizirksamt (the place where local government for the area is managed), and at the recemtion tell that you want to register as a local resident (anmelden). You will need to fill out a form, (which you can do in advance - they can be bought in stationary shops like "McPaper"). You'll need your passport, and the rental contract for your apartment/room. It only takes a couple of minutes once you get to the top of the queue!

Once you have your resident document, you can organise everything else. You do need it for many things such as opening a bank account, and even buying a mobile phone (even if you only want a "pre paid" phone, the still want proof of where you live).

Thanks so much! This is really helpful! I wasn't entirely sure...

You surely as eggs must be now..!!

What is that?

Hello

This is a message for Colin and to all others who have given me advice. I have actually now been offered the job in Berlin! Yippieeeee! So much to sort out! Where to begin? I am fortuate that I have someone from my workplace to help me with all the formalities and finding an apartment. Thanks to you all for your advice - I am sure I will be asking many more questions in the coming weeks and months!

All the best.

Fibi

No. Again, it is possible to LEGALLY have dual citizenship but only under special circumstances (there is a reason why you can not give up your other citizenship, i.e. it is too expensive for you to give it up).

Kids can always have double citizenship but once they are 18 they have to choose one.

And keeping the other citizenship and not informing the German authorities is not a very good idea, you might end up in jail.

If you really need more information about it, I suggest you consult a lawyer.

That's not what the irish Embassy told me. They were explicit on the issue that if a child has a German passport, and then wants an Irish one, technically they need to give up the German one, but nobody ever does bother to tell the German authorities. German children typically have a "Honderausweis" which may have a different status. However I don't know the technicalities, and I don't know the law - just telling what I was told (7 years ago)

Naturalisation as a German citizen

German citizenship may be acquired by naturalisation by those with permanent residence who have lived in Germany for 8 years. Additional requirements include an adequate command of the German language and an ability to be self-supporting without recourse to welfare.

Applicants for naturalisation are normally expected to prove they have renounced their existing nationality, or will lose this automatically upon naturalisation. An exception applies to those unable to give up their nationality easily (such as refugees). A further exception applies to citizens of European Union member states that do not require Germans to renounce citizenship upon naturalisation in that country.

§ 25 Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz

(1) Ein Deutscher verliert seine Staatsangehörigkeit mit dem Erwerb einer ausländischen Staatsangehörigkeit, wenn dieser Erwerb auf seinen Antrag oder auf den Antrag des gesetzlichen Vertreters erfolgt, der Vertretene jedoch nur, wenn die Voraussetzungen vorliegen, unter denen nach § 19 die Entlassung beantragt werden könnte. Der Verlust nach Satz 1 tritt nicht ein, wenn ein Deutscher die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaats der Europäischen Union, der Schweiz oder eines Staates erwirbt, mit dem die Bundesrepublik Deutschland einen völkerrechtlichen Vertrag nach § 12 Abs. 3 abgeschlossen hat.

"Honderausweis"

This sounds pretty definitive. I guess that Germany has altered its position since 7 years ago, as part of harmonisation of its laws with EU statutes. So it is clear that EU citizens can now take up German citizenship while keeping their original citizenship. I'm not sure what anyone gains in having two EU citizenships, but if that what some folks want to do, so be it.

Great news - hope you get all organised and get to Berlin for the summer - the weather is finally beginnning to turn for the better, and the trees are now filling out, so the city is entering its best period.

Feel free to hit us with questions,a nd once settled don't forget to invite us all to your moving in party.

I was talking about the German regulations, of course you have to consider as well the regulations of the other country. If the other country does not allow double citizenship at all then you will have to choose.

Ireland and UK have no problems with double citizenship - the issue in the past has always been Germany. However it is clear that by adapting to EU ways of doing things, Germany has fallen into line - at least with regard to other EU countries.

Well, the kids can have double citizenship and decide what they want to choose when they are 18, I do not see how Germany is failing, at least with the kids.