Foreigners living in Munich - TV Documentary

Yomama, if you read your quote carefully it say that "Überwiegend" that most dual citizens come from "bi-nationale Ehen". So IF you are born a child of a German and a Turk Citizen you can be a dual national.

There are alsao a VERY FEW "hardship cases" and loopholes where it is tolerated.

When I got written to by Munich City Council with an offer of citizenship, the letter said very clearly I'd have to give up my British Passport. Until I saw this thread and then the link, I has NO IDEA that the laws had changed for certain EU Citizens and that would be a story I'd be following very closely!

And I think people SHOULD be given full citizenship and voting rights after 12 MONTHS! To borrow a phrase from the USA (just to prove I'm not "anti-American":

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION !

* if you read your quote carefully it say that "Überwiegend"

Überwiegend = more than 50%. Could be 90%, could be only 51%.

* that most dual citizens come from "bi-nationale Ehen". So IF you are born
* a child of a German and a Turk Citizen you can be a dual national.

Yet people claim that children need to decide at a certain age which citizenship they want. Which isn't true, according to what you just said. So do they (A) have to decide or ( can they keep both? Which one is it? In case it's (A), then why are there 2 million dual nationals?
The 2 million number also includes spouses.

*There are also a VERY FEW "hardship cases" and loopholes where it is tolerated.

Find those loopholes and use them. They can't be that rare since 10% of the Turks managed to do it 9 years ago. The laws were much more restrictive during the nineties.

* the letter said very clearly I'd have to give up my British Passport.

Big deal. Give it up and get a new one afterwards.
Many countries (including the US, dunno about GB) treat their own naturalization oaths' renunciatory language as essentially meaningless and take no steps to enforce it at all. Americans can keep US citizenship when they get a German passport.

You have to set your arse in motion to get what you want. The Germans won't hand it to you on a silver platter.

* I think people SHOULD be given full citizenship and voting rights after 12 MONTHS!

And I think beer on the Oktoberfest should be €3.67 and new BMWs should be sold for half their current price. Too fcuking bad it won't happen.

woow! who took the fucking jam out of your donut!

take a chill pill
the süddeutsche on saturday had an article about the whole thing with the courts and such.
and i understand where grtho's coming from, it isn't made easy sometimes and definatly isn't made simple, but a forum is there for us all to rant and rave and take the piss out of our german hosts (interesting are we then parasites?),

Yomama, you are mixing different categories!

The DECISION part comes under the latest amendments to the Citizenship laws that you can apply (basicly at birth) to become a German Citizen even if BOTH parents are non-Germans but have to decide at 21 to renounce one passport.

If you are born to parents of German and another nationality you don't have to decide as in the eyes of the German authorities you are German. Period.

Seems that you think we're just bitching and moaning for no reason... non-Germans hand over half their money to the government every month too and are constantly treated as whipping-boys, go and pick up some CSU election literature and have a look!

I get it relatively easy as a white EU citizen, a lot of people I know, don't.

Such as:
http://www.norbert-geis.de/ueberzeugungen/rede_staatsa.htm

Im übrigen werden die Folgen der Mehrstaatigkeit für die Demokratie zu wenig bedacht. Alle Macht geht vom Volk aus, nicht von der Bevölkerung. Demokratie setzt das Volk voraus. Es gibt keine Demokratie ohne Demos, keine Volksherrschaft ohne Volk. Die zunehmende Mehrstaatigkeit bedroht die politische Einheit des Volkes. Das ist nicht im Interesse des Volkes. Der repräsentativen Demokratie ist es nicht erlaubt, sich in einer solch zentralen Frage wie der Mehrstaatigkeit über den Willen des Volkes, von dem sie ihre Legitimation bezieht, hinwegzusetzen.

It would of course be telling to pin those guys down on what exactly the difference between Volk and Bevölkerung is.

To paraphrase Göring: when I hear the words Volk, Macht, Willen und Ausländer together coming from a German, I reach for my gun...

* Yomama, you are mixing different categories!

Me? I merely took your words and tried to make sense out of them.

* go and pick up some CSU election literature and have a look!

I know, I know. Bavaria is redneck territory. Why do you think they are good at building cars?!

* you don't have to decide as in the eyes of the German authorities
* you are German. Period.

Once they think you are a germ you can (re-)acquire whatever nationality you want (in case you lost it at all, the US for example doesn't give a shit whether you renounced your citizenship or not), and there's nothing those Paragraphenhengsts will do about it.
I think I'm going to bang my head against the wall now.

*non-Germans hand over half their money to the government every month too

No shit.
Too bad you can't bottle that whine.

> a forum is there for us all to rant and rave

My bad. I thought that people also tried to help each other with stuff.

Please continue the bitching.

Thanks for the link MysteryMan Not that I want to particuarly give the guy the benefit of more hits. Norbert geis has a germany wide reputation as a particuarly nasty bigot.

Yeah, people do try and help each other with stuff. So thanks to whoever it was that let me know that I could apply to become a German Citizen and still keep my British Passport - cos the KVR certainly weren't gonna let me know:

http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/lhm_alt/mde.../51878/neu.html

---------------------------------------------
Die ausländische Staatsangehörigkeit muss nach wie vor grundsätzlich aufgegeben werden.
--------------------------------------------

Volk => only citizens
Bevölkerung => all residents

and the term "Volk" also has racial overtones. They still see being German as a "blood" thing.

could also be

Volk => the People
Bevölkerung => the population

funny thing about Hr. Geis is if i'm a threat to german democracy now, how come changing my passport will change my convictions?


quite.

Yeah, I know what the words mean and BTW the word Volk has absolutely nothing to do with citizenship. My point being that if a politician in Ireland said yomething like "Democracy is for the people not the population", there would be much 'huh'ing and scratching of heads. The words have only contextual differences in meaning in English. In Germany the word Volk has undertones and the guy knew exactly what he was saying.

i agree i was being nice on the translation

volk = people as in "american people all around the world"
volk =race as in "the black people of america"

and i agree that nice german guy was not using a liberal deffinition of the word.


do you think he'd by me a drink (unless i was leaving germany), the scary thing i, is my vermieterin showed my her stammbuch from 1937 and inside it has all the wonderfuly tolerant rules which 'those guys worked out', it went so far as, a german woman marring a foriegner would lose her german nationality! i guess that makes my wife british. But there are a lot of liberal tolerant germans who share the same sort of fears about 'mehrstaatigkeit', it's kind of like a 5th column mentality

2 good posts Gideon!

The reason Geis & Co think it is so important to keep "foreigners" foreigners is that they are thus easily controlled, tracked and always easy to threaten and hassle.

The DO have a fear of a "5th Column" developing, people who are German Citizens on paper but don't, won't or refuse to fit into the desired mode, the "Leitkultur".

I'd always assumed it was just the real conservatives who opposed dual citizenship before but seing as the CDU won state elections in Hesse a few years ago almost solely on the policy of opposing this, maybe there is a mass of opinion in the centre willing to be swayed... Perhaps liberal (I mean, in the middle politically here for any Americans reading) Germans think that there can be nothing better than being a German Citizen and fail to grasp the 101 reasons why somebody might also like to keep their old citizenship too.

I wrote an E-mail earlier to the KVR asking why their web page on becoming a German Citizen is different to that of the Federal Government RE: Dual Nationality for certain EU Citizens. We'll see what the answer is...

Edited to add: I was discussing the TV issue in the pub last night. Apparently there IS a serious Turkish presenter on ARD Television, she sometimes makes the "comment" section on the late night Tagesthemen apparently.
But hardly high profile!

And there is the frankly gorgeous bloke (Indian name I think) who presents "Quarks & Co", the science programme made by WDR.

Well to the fair to the germolenes, there is quite a lot of support for multiple nationalities and in general quite liberal thinking in germany. The SDP, FDP and the Greens + the trade unions were all for it. I do think though that any talk of this does bring out a lot of the hidden racism in germany. Also to put the whole thing in perspective, there were huge troubles in Belgium when they tried giving the vote in local elections to all residents and various similar little tiffs around europe centred on this issue. ( http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...8&story_id=3958 )

This site also has an interesting article (website for jews in germany):
http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/99/01/doppel.htm
from 1999, when the big fuss over multiple nationality in Germany was taking place.

Yes MysteryMan, I've got a mate living in Antwerp and those Vlaams Blok are nasty f******s.

Racist, nationalist shite is NOT only limited to Germany. I know a grey little island in the North Sea that's not unlikely to send it's first fascist MEP to Brussels after the Euro Elections...

KVR Update:

"Sehr geehrter Herr X

um Ihre Anfrage zu klären, bitten wir um kurze Vorsprache mit Ihrem
Reisepass.
Schriftlich sind alle Möglichkeiten Ihrer Anfrage schwer zu erfassen.
Für weitere Rückfragen stehen wir jederzeit gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
I.A. "

So they won't even answer the simple question inless I go down that effing hole at Poccistrasse and show them my passport!

Hi
Karen Webb who presents ZDF's "Mona Lisa" and covered the Spanish Royal Wedding on Saturday is a UK national and her father is from India.
[img]http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/20/0,1886,2210964,00.jpg[/img]
At the CDU/CSU rally last week in Neuhausen (on Tuesday at about 5pm), Angela Merkel gave a speech concerning the integration of foreign nationals outlining the two main policy party, that foreign nationals learn and use the German language and that they accept and adapt to the "German way of life". What precisely this means what not made clear though and she was somewhat drowned out by about 20 protestors at this point.
There were however more protestors for job and traineeship seekers and the protestors involved were easily spotted (due to the lack of shoes/dog on a string/looking like members of The Levellers which made them easy to spot in Neuhausen) by the Police and by the organisers.
It is disappointing to see how few people under the age of 50 attend such events, I don't mean just by the CDU/CSU but by any political party, it was a similar age group when Schröder spoke last year on Marienplatz (at 6pm so it wasn't that early in the day).
Joschka Fischer will be speaking soon in Munich and he is certainly worth your time seeing regardless of your personal political viewpoint (even from a purely rhetorical viewpoint).
Katrina

@ Katrina
Is that chic sleeping with Joschka Fischer ? He seems to pull loads of wimmin ... maybe I should become a tree hugger ...

again...uh...she does WHICH show on German telly?

sorry no offence but what grtho and myself are/were discussing is due to a coment delivered to me by a german national married to a black german national. it's not about natonality its about colour. please read my original comment, as its not a rant but an interesting observation...

(sorry got distracted, nasser just got his century and scored a winning four against nz, whiii)

...and realy does miss blonde 2004 realy look foriegn, ie not european white.

but as the süddeutsche said on saturday which polititian is campaigning about his plans for europeans at this moment in time?

Parasites? At 50% tax?

Anyhoo, interesting to hear that stuff from Katrina about what Frau Merkel had to say on those two main policies. Learning the lingo, and adapting to the "way of life" (which I presume involves Birkenstocks at some point).

I thought I was in Europe? Germany is well into this Europe malarky, the single currency and all that, but now want me to learn German?
Can almost guarantee I speak more European languages than the average Fritz, and surely in Europe thats important? If I was fully fluent in German, I would still make the same effort I do now to avoid speaking it, because I don't like it.

Now I am just being my normal arsey anti-Krout self here, but what I mean is, all these countries forcing people to become more "naturalised" could be opening up a European can of worms if they start these naturalisation things for people that are actually already European.

The best would be the "way of life" bit though. Thats just pure comedy waiting to happen. I wonder if they plan some sort of course?
If you learnt to be the perfect stereotype Bavarian, and moved to Düsseldorf, would you have to re-take the course?

yep. i've been here long enough, got my lederhosen, my janker, and bierbauch; and can pour a weissbier in 5 seconds, i use the words biss'l, schmarn, suppi, zerfix and schau ma mal at least thirteen times a day.

Düsseldorf, na mate north of the donau.

Marching on... and on... and on...

Hiya,
Karen Webb doesn't have white skin but the blonde highlights just make her look like a woman with a good sun tan. "Mona Lisa" is a long running women's issues show on ZDF and is commonly seen as a stepping stone to higher profile things.
She also lives in Munich apparently with her boyfriend who is not Joschka but is a presenter for Pro7.
Joschka is the MP for Frankfurt Sachsenhausen which is where I saw him speak once, very charismatic man so it does not surprise me that he has such a success with the ladies. So he is worth seeing for that alone (and it is a Frühshoppen event, so beer will be on sale).
Katrina

Mona Lise is a fairly serious women's issues programme on ZDF but then Miss Vapid goes on to gushing reports of an in-breds piss up in Madrid of "Royals" who have so far managed to avoid the Charles I expereince...

But here is a pick of the lush Ranga Yogeshwar who presents the science programme "Quarks & Co":

http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:M12zT...al-soc03-01.jpg

no, unfortunatly, it makes her look more acceptable to the german public.
shes not turkish and shes not doing the 20:00 tagesschau.


off topic but who do you girls allways admire men who shag around, unless of coarse its the one your with... he's just an untrustworthy philanderer in a suit.

Plus he kicked the shit out of some poor copper.

Dirty hippy.

darn she has a bf.

@CodeRed
Curses! Foiled again!

FYI

Doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit für EU-Bürger
Ein Gerichturteil erlaubt nun die Doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit für Griechen und andere EU-Bürger in Deutschland und insbesondere in Bayern und Baden-Würtemberg. Der Nürnberger Anastasios Anastasiadis konnte sich vor dem Bundesverwaltungsgericht Leipzig gegen das Land Bayern durchsetzen. EU-Bürger, die in Deutschland leben, können nun auch in Bayern bei einer Einbürgerung ihre Staatsangehörigkeit behalten, wenn auch ihr Land bei der Einbürgerung von Deutschen eine doppelte Staatsangehörigkeit akzeptiert. Dies trifft zu auf Belgien, Frankreich, Griechenland, Großbritannien, Italien, Irland, Portugal und teilweise auch auf die Niederlande. Weitere Informationen siehe unter: www.integrationsbeauftragte.de

@ Jeremy

Les Dawson joke...

"I knew the mother-in-law was coming...the mice were throwing themselves onto the traps"

Sorry its a bit late