US torture of Iraqi prisoners

Sorry but I just feel that this day cannot go by without some mention of this - despite the fact that I know and like quite a few of the Yank members on this site.

Warning - link to disturbing photos:

http://www.local6.com/slideshow/news/32507...=1&dm=ss&p=news

very funny, parnell. what a bizarre "news" site.

Are you being sarcastic ??? In which case it is deeply offensive and inappropriate.

If not here is the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672901.stm

Recognise the photos - they're the same.

i simply cannot understand the state of mind that those soldiers must have been in to do things like that, or how stupid they can be to take photos of it.

my first reaction was that the photos must have been doctored, but seemingly the us army have admitted they are for real.

have the people on the ground there become unstable as a result of what they have been through? are they on mind altering substances? or were they capable of such behaviour b4 they got there?

america has lost the war for people's minds.

@ butterbean, look b4 you leap!

Funny? If your as sick as those yank soldiers maybe. You do realise its true dont you? Maybe you consider the bbc more credible?
Not much mention of it on the yank propaganda sites though...

Edit: Oops someone bet me to it.

A friend of mine is US Army JAG (military lawyer basically) and in Iraq and just e-mailed me about this. Those guys are getting Court Martialed and are likely to get thrown in prison for a DECADE.

Good.

Is that BigC on picture 6?

Don't blame America. These people are sick fcuks and would have done the same thing no matter where they were from. Sure, the war has given the rise to opportunity to do this kind of sh*t but that doesn't mean that we blame the candle company when we burn our hand.

Power doesn't corrupt anywhere near as much as corrupt people seek power.

These corrupt people should be brought to justice and believe me, the US will is one country that won't stand for this kind of behavior. Just because they are G.I.s doesn't mean that the US is behind their activities.

"America has lost the war in some people's minds."
In some people's minds, perhaps. But if there is one country that will strive to bring people to justice it is the US. Things like this might be brushed aside or condoned in some non-progressive countries but the US takes things like war crimes seriously.

(Yank is a derogatory term when referring to US citizens. But hey, no offense taken )

my point exactly tench. and take a look at the rest of parnell's site. christ you people are trigger happy. what do the Yank members on this site have to do with these morons? shall we go back to the discussion of blaming all Germans for the Holocost? All Jews for the state of the Palestinians?

...and all Toytowners for the state of my liver

(just keeping it light)

Yeah man , I knew you were straight with this , but listen to this BULLSHIT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672117.stm

"CBS said the army investigation had concluded that Gen Karpinski's "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.

The army has made no formal charges against her. She is the subject of the non-criminal investigation that could result in a written reprimand, AFP news agency reported.

A letter of reprimand could trigger further action and possibly lead to the officers being expelled from the army.

CBS said the pictures it obtained showed a wide range of abuses. "

Personally I think they should be all given 10 years for th grunts and 50 years for the COs ,especially the general.

Nah, only if you grew up south of the Mason-Dixon line or are a Red Sox fan

CNN has it.

Fox News carries the story as a headline. No graphic photos, only descriptions.

Headlines in the NY Times too.

People get pissed when Kza has a rag on women or something - and usually there's a grain of truth in what he says and he made an apology for his remarks.

Now you make these disgusting remarks on the very day that this story breaks - that is plainly disgusting and repulsive. That is the difference between the Shoah (Holocaust) and this.

it doesn't surprise me that this happened. i'm sure there are many thousands of tortures that went unreported or undocumented. also, quality of soldiers being sent into combat has and will always be low. that most of those sent to guard the prisoners don't even know what the geneva convention is let alone read it, doesn't shock me one bit. i come from a military family and remember what some of my dad's friends and fellow sailors were like! oh my.

sadly, these torture methods are nothing new. i get sick to my stomach when i think of the ex-chilien dictator (pinochet) or even some of the african despots. sad that the greatest military in the world got caught with their pants down. and even worse that probably most american's don't believe it! "no, not in our land. we are fair to pow's.! mm.

no. my point is, and what is disgusting, is you blaming the Yanks that post on this site for something that they have nothing to do with.

Sorry , please explain to me the dramatic leap of logic that took you to that conclusion - and refer to your initial posting please.

i'm sorry profundo, but these people are out there in the name of the american people, so when they do something like this i am definitely going to blame 'america'

i actually don't agree with anything you have said in your post, i do not believe the us will bring these people to satisfactory justice... i certainly do not think the decade in prison, as mentioned by Drivinwest, is sufficient

the corrupt people, bush, cheney, rumsfeld et al, already have the power (which they got illiegally in the first place anyway)

this episode just goes to show that the whole operation has been rushed and reckless and bungled... proper training and vetting should have stopped individuals like that getting out there to work in the name of the american people...

on an aside, if you are going to quote, at least do it properly, this is not what i said...

what i said was:


big difference...

The grunts are gonna get it for sure; whether the COs knew about this remains to be seen. If so, I wholly agree about maximum punishment under US Army law.

When I get a go ahead from my friend I'll post his comments on here; it should be insightful. He's absolutely disgusted by this as I'm sure the overwhelming majority of troops are.

Totally agree with ya mang.

"If certain acts and violations of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them. We are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

US Supreme Court Judge Robert Jackson, speaking at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal

the "despite" bit, and the text thereafter.

You really can't do that. A dozen or so GIs hardly represent 291.000.000 people.

Don't get me involved! I was only making an observation..

anybody that you put in a foreign land with a gun and your flag on his/her arm is representing you...

that said, while I don't agree with noddy on what DW highlighted, I understand it as a human reaction. and I think "we" (America) should leave Iraq.

Understood. I am just saying that there are sick people everywhere. It's part of society and the human condition and not necessarily a country's fault. Yes, these people are backed/paid for/sent into the field from the US and therefore represent them and can be seen from others as a conduit for blame. I for one wouldn't blame the US except to say that the people should be brought to justice.

What is justice? That is a whole other can of worms. Castrate them? Shock? Life in prison? Do the same thing?

I will be sorely dissapointed in my country if they only give written reprimands and kick them out of the service. That's not justice in anyone's book.

(sorry i misquoted you earlier. I was typing from memory and didn't use the cut/paste. you are right. big difference)

"despite" ??? This is a shameful episode in your country's conduct in another , the despite refers to the fact that I still like these people and am sure that they are equally abhorred and if it were soldiers from Ireland , I would certainly be deeply ashamed in exactly the same manner that Germans are made feel guilty for the sins of others (and 60 years in the past).

I would have thought this was rather obvious - you are conspicuous by your taking offence since no-one else commented upon this , none was meant against site members although your referral to the news site as "funny" is deeply offensive to the vast majority of this site I'm sure.

i saw this on BBC World last night, not a channel renowned for being biased.
apparntly the whole thing wasn't touture but just some enactment (although say that to the iraqi with a bag on his head) the guy was told to stand on the box and if he box, and if he got down he'd get an electric shock. (the wires wern't live) It's still sick, degrading and pathetic and way out of line according to the geneva convention.

anyhows having known people wh've worked on amican bases, all i can say is these guys are in deep, deep shit. if they get ten years, it will mean ten years, and it will be ten years of degrading hell, 'cos military prison is a somewhat sticter than other institutions. and correct me if i am wrong, thaey serve the sentence then get thrown out of the army.

Maybe this is the sort of policy that Bush was preparing for when he withdrew from that treaty against war crimes. Was it called the Rome Convention or something? I wish I could search for it and provide some extra info, but the basics of it mean that American soldiers are some of the few in the world that cannot be tried for war crimes by an international court.

I shall now search for some links but if anyone has any I would like to do some more reading up on that.

And who knows whats going on in Guantanamo Bay. Not exactly multilateral and transparent is it.

Edit: Heres one link from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/icc/docs/art98analysis.htm
And another http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0609-01.htm
Once again not much in the "mainstream" media about it.

Now I am not saying all Americans are evil, but their leadership, and the direction it is going in, and their activities abroad are certainly questionable in my opinion.

dude , even i think that's a step too far , I think the withdrawal from that treaty was absolutely abhorrent though.

are they saying it was more along the lines of hazing or a college prank?

Their actions do not represent the will of either the US military, government, or it's people, thus I find blaming America as a whole a bit silly.

I am thankfull that this has come out, the Iraqis that have suffered must see that justice is done. Hopefully this will appease them a little, and show that this is not the way that America does business.

It's better that it came out this way and has been directly addressed, rather than just rumour which can not be proved. Now justice can be served, it just a shame that its the grunts that will get it, and not the deniable spy master generals who will slip away as usual.

The difference between the old Iraqi regime and the US, is accountability. This is not brushed under the carpet.

Still sounds like torture to me - just like the sleep deprivation the Pentagon admitted using to break prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, it doesn't have to involve physical pain to classified as torture.

Oh come ON here! What about Jessica Lynch ? Pulllllleeeassseee!

If the BBC didnt go and blow that shit wide open then are you trying to tell me that the US would have held its hands up itself at some stage and said "Yeh , we staged a raid on unarmed medical personnel in a hospital to make some good tv" ?

i do agree with your overall sentiment but this is just naievete.

@ parnell

I heard about this from my JAG friend well before this ever made the news. The judicial wheels were already spinning by the time this broke.

profundo,

thats the way it was reported and if you look at the pictures carefully where is the car battery?
i guess it was like a college prank.

and i think we should all calm down 130,000 americans out there, rebuilding bridges schools the whole reconstruction effort, and where are those pictures???
10 guys get drunk and woooohooo all gi's are killing children or what?

Dude , trust me I'm happy to hear that , CBS mentioned that the Pentagon were aware of this before they broke it - pictures and video sure carry more weight amongst the electorate than broadsheet newpaper text.

I'm just sceptical about any US judiciary trying soldiers (of their selection) because of crimes committed by their staff on foreign soil. Doesn't seem fair or consistent to me. You're a clever guy , you are no doubt aware of Bertrand Russell's truth commission on Vietnam and what happened there (hint - they silenced him).

okay, but although they haven't been given a mandate for such behaviour, they have been put in a position where they could do it...

i know it was the individual's decision for them to behave that way, but the only reason they could do it is because they are there as americans, under the american flag with an american gun in their hand...

responsibility has to be taken, and the ultimate responsibility lies not just with americans in iraq but with every american citizen that has a vote and is letting that administration ride roughshot around the world in their name...

that said, the voters of any allied country share some of the responsibility, and i feel considerable anger that 'neutral' ireland is assisting the allies in refuelling troop transport through shannon, any politican that will be brave enough to end that in ireland will get my support.

While this is a serious thread... torture of prisoners is nothing new. I mean, what about the Americans who have been captured by the Iraqis? Its war isn´t it? I don´t mean to sound flippant at all, it is disgusting but it goes both ways...

burn them too EDIT - I mean the Iraqi torturers

yes presh, but they are the bad guys

fine parnell. I misread/misunderstood your initial post, at least the intention of it, and I apologize. I am, as an American, ashamed of the episode. As I have said, I do think we should leave. We have overplayed our hand and overstayed our welcome, and the lives of many incredibly young men and women, Amercian as well as Iraqi, have been lost unnecessarily because of it. I'm not convinced of the authenticity of those particular photos, but I am not so naive to think there is no substance to the claim. I am glad it has at least come out, so that there will hopefully be some amount of accountability. And I agree with you - no way the US would stepped up and come clean on its own.

Thanks for that , i really didnt mean any malice in my original intent towards the American members of this site. Truth be told I think America is a great place , it's just lost it's way a bit (well actually this news story shows that its a LOT).

But I dont think you can leave - you would have a fundamentalist Arab state within a month and they aren't known as being much kinder to human rights. Perhaps civil war as well in view of the Ba'thist Sunni problems.

also a good point. damned if we do, damned if we don't. I am just tired and worried of the escalating attacks, and the photos of all the coffins. too sad.

This is a bad blow for the US. This war is one disaster after another, and even if this was the result of 10 drunk/stupid GI's, their actions aren't going to endear themselves to the Iraqis. This action may well cost other US soldiers their lives in retaliatory attacks. It certainly won't win over any friends - which is what they desperately need.

Any guesses as to a best or worst case scenario in the debacle of a war?

Most of the reports I read said the main problem was with the security contractors they were using in the prisons. No chain of command, no accountability, so the sick fcukers thought they could get away with anything. The pictures came out because at least one of the GI's knew that what they were being told to do was wrong. (Since when could security guys order GI's around anyway)

One of the main allegations is that one of the contractors raped a teenage boy, it's not all just "enactment's".

hazza:-

northern ireland

long, slow, painful, and expensive
and youre doomed if you stay there and doomed if you pull out

I am with profundo.
I don't know what it is but war seems to bring the most disgusting "instincts" out of some humans. It happens in very nationality. I am embarressed of being human sometimes.
What is it that makes ppl torture others just for fun.
These ppl should be tortured and embarressed the same way the treated others.

I don't know they were always that sick and became soldiers out of their sick mind or if their mind got so toxicated because of what they gone through and have seen.


I don't think a decade is enough!

Best case: Something like Germany, Japan or South Korea. The worst of the militant Iraq warlords lose power, get sent to jail or disappear, leaving the normal hard working not so fanatical Iraqis working together with the Americans to rebuild society. America slowly leaves (they havent really left Germany or South Korea yet though), and eventually the Iraqis govern themselves along modern democratic secular priciples.

Worst case: Goes nuclear and or biological. End of story.

Most probable case: Drags on for a decade, eventually americans give up, leaving Iraq as a poor opressed nation in the hands of some dictator.