Help with figuring out the "Nebenkostenabrechnung"

can anyone help please?
I moved into this wohnung January last year...but today received alot of paper work and rechnung from my Landlord who I ve only seen the once.
Its 14 pages long (Viterra Energy Koston) and at the end it says...

Nebenkostonabrechnug for jahr 2003
Nebenkoston EUR 1151,48
Vorauszahlung 12 monat x EUR 67. 00 = 804,00
Nachzahlung EUR 347,48

then to uberweisung der nachzahlung auf his konto.

I thought the STROM etc I paid every 2 months was Nebenkoston and the rest was in the rent which i pay monthly.
Is the nachzahlung what I owe him? and whats it for?

Basically you pay the nebenkosten monthly, and in 2003 you paid EUR 804 in total. When the heating and water bills were added up for the year it came to EUR 1151,48.

That means you owe EUR 347,48.

I suggest you put your nebenkosten up to EUR 100 per month, and then you can ignore the nasty suprise of a Nachzahlung.

The Nebenkosten normally covers water, heating and rubbish removal (it can include other things). Electricity is not normally included (although in your case it could be).

Check the Abrechnung, and find out what the costs are for. Often the hot water costs are what really put the bill up (at least they were for me!).

sorry every month you have to pay nebenkosten and strom and like Adriang says you owe EUR 347,48.

Look on the bright side, at least your landlord bothers to do the Abrechnung, some just set a high Nebenkosten and don't bother to tell you if the bills add up to less.

Not if (s)he's paying the electricity company directly, which while not common, can happen. And with two-monthly payments that might be the case - would also explain the unusually low monthly payment.

Shannon, if you want, send me a copy of everything you've got by PM or e-mail, including when you moved in and I'll check it out for you. I was Verwalter for a block of 48 flats for five years and I know my way around this stuff pretty well.

Approximately 50% of Abrechnungen are incorrect - either intentionally or unintentionally, so it's worth checking it out.

As Adriang said, if everything is correct, increase your monthly payments. Depending how big your flat is, 67€ sounds unrealistically low. Depending on how many people and whether or not the flat is old or new (i.e. well insulated) I would expect to see Nebenkosten coming in at 100€ - 150€ for an 80 sq.m. flat.

RMA can i send you my one two if you are bored

Shannon you could always use a Mieterverein e.V. Which is basically a self help group where you pay a small fee and they check your Bills for you. Membership of the group gives you access to a Lawyer if you need one too.

You can find the nearest one to you by using Yellow Pages or try this link and call the number on the home page. http://www.mieterverein.de/

Thanks everyone for all your help

do you mean I pay him a extra 100euros in my rent bank account every month?

RMH...I have photo copied the 14 pages in work today but can only get them to you by normal post ...maybe I can post it to my mum in UK as she has printer and she can Email you all the details from her PC???

php david..thanks for site ill take a look

ooops Sorry (blond moment)..bf just imformed me its not a printer I need its a scanner WHICH I HAVE lol...wrote last post after getting in from work and brain wasnt functioning properly due to lack of sleep...having to get up at 4 30am

Ill setup scanner RMH...and scan it through over weekend if you dont mind

laters

Not an extra 100 €, increase the payment to 100 €/month!

Anway, we'll get that cleared up once you've scanned your docs and e-mailed them over. By the way, I belong to the Wochenendpendler - i.e. I work too far away from home to travel every day, so when I get home for the weekend the house management reckons I've got better things to do than spend the time sitting in front of the PC. So it'll be Monday before I get round to looking at it.

Cheers

Roy

PS Can you have a look and see to whom you pay your electricity bill ever tow months - is it the electricity board or your landlord. Thiy could be very important.

ok that confusion was in 2004 now im updating cos confused again

can anyone inform me why i didnt receive a bill for Nebenkoston for 2006 and still no bill for 2007?

should not you read your devices and send them what they show? I received a letter today asking what my electricity and gas meters show. I believe, they will send the invoice after they compare what i paid and what i consumed

well normally i get a bill from the landlord for the nebenkosten which is the upkeep of the appartments.
my electric heating meter is separate thats when the 2 unfriendly miserable gits march into my apartment and then read the meter.

i think i read on here if you dont get a nebenkosten bill before the end of the year your not obliged to pay it anymore. This is second year ive not gone one

bit odd I cant see him forgetting

Your landlord is obliged by law to do a yearly round up once a year.Any bills older than 1 year do not need to be paid.German word is verjährung.If your landlord has not sent you a yearlyround up you may find that you should have got some money back and the landlord may be sitting on it hoping that you do not realise.

THe landlord sent me a short letter last year to give him my bank account number as he wrote he owes me money?It sounds stupid but i still havent got round to writing him back maybe it was that? have i lost out on it if i give him my bank number now?
i still havent heard anything from last years nebenkosten )
so maybe he owes me twice ?
very confusing
sorry its took so long to reply ive only just got back on here
am i still entiteld to that money he owes me ?

Today I received my Nebenkostenabrechnung, and I think it's not correct. In the specification it sums up the total costs for the building, and all those specifications are divided by a certain factor (probably my square meters of the total) which comes to a total for the whole year. It also specifies the 12 payments for every month that's in the rent.

But, I moved in there in February, so these posts should be 11/12 of the total, and it should have specified that I paid 11 times the "Vorauszahlung".

The same goes with the heating. The bill is for the whole year and on the sheet it said that I have paid 12 times in the rent. There also is a "Gradtagzahlentabelle" which says that the total heating costs per month are not the total divided by 12, but a higer percentage in the winter months.

According to my calculations, I should deduct 17% from the bill (which is the share of January), and add 1 month of monthly payment that hasn't taken place. Or am I making a mistake somewhere?

Hi Shannon, yes I'm still here, just not online very often!

As Mik says, it's a bit suspicious that you haven't had a Nebenkostenabrechnung for 2006/7. I'm not sure what the legal situation is, but I would try writing him a letter (registered, of course), requesting a copy of the Abrechnung. Set him a "Frist" of say two weeks and say that if you don't get a reply, you'll get a lawyer on the job.

@sparty, as you suspect, you should only be paying for eleven months, not twelve. This does not simply mean you will only need to pay 11/12s of the bill as you rightly surmised with the heating.

This is either a particularly "schlampige" Verwaltung or else your predecessor hasn't paid up, or maybe the flat was empty for a month, and they're trying to get the money back from you.

Write them a registered letter pointing out when you moved in and requesting a correctly calculated Abrechnung.

If you have any questions about thze Abrechnung when you get it, then come back again. If I don't respond within a few days send me a PM. I'm not online so often these days and usually when I come back there are about a dozen pages of new posts, so it's easy to miss things.

Cheers

Roy

Listen i have a lot to do with all this crap in the past.beena member of the Mietverein for years and get their monthly circuliar.Anyone wants advice P.M. me i will pass on my number and then you can call me.I do know th ins and outs of it all and if i do not i will tell you straight.

Well,

I have a question on this topic. I moved into my apartment inn September 2006 and paying 190 neben kosten every month. I haven't received any bill for the neben kosten until now. Actually I reminded my owner once, she told she has to calculate something, but did not turn up!

What might be the reason?

It could be that the owner owes you money, since 190€ per month might be too much. And she's hoping you move out eventually and never ask about it.

Hi eosd400d: according to my knowledge, the landlord has to give you a Nebenkostenabrechnung at the latest within 12 month after a given period of renting (which should be defined in your contract). If the period was set as "per calendar year", she can not make any claims anymore against you for the period Sep-Dec 2006 but would still have time to give you the balance sheet for all of 2007 until end if 2008. If the period is 12 month, than by the end of this September she will have forfait her right to claim anything back from you for the period Sep. 2006 til Sep. 2007.

Now what happens, if, like canuck say, you are actually bound to receive money from her than the other way round? While I find that doubtfull with a look at the increase of heating costs alone during thos 2 1/2 years since you moved in, your rights for reclaiming money will forfait after 3 years, therefore you should get the balance from her at the latest until end August next year. If you want to enfore her to do the Nebenkostenabrechnung, you could simply quit paying for a while until she has coughed up the required balance. But of course you could also gamble - in case you think you'll have to pay more once the balance is in - that she does not do it until end of Sep. or end of the year, because then you are no more legally liable for the "old" costs.

Cheerio

Thanks for the posts.

Honestly speaking, I dont think she owes me money (if yes, it might be very little), on the contrary, I am afraid that she comes up with a huge bill at the time of vacating the apartment and will surprise me of the amount I still owe her.

So, in the end if I have to pay her, I dont want to shell it out once, but rather on a monthly basis.

How big is the flat? 190€ would probably not be far off the mark for a relatively modern flat of, say, 75 - 80 m2. On the other hand, if the flat is less than about 60 m2, then even in a relatively old block it could be that you're paying too much and should get a refund.

eos400d your landlord has to give you a Nebenkosten round up every 12 months.If you moved in to a place in September 2006 then the landlord has to give you a round up by Eptember 2007.Get on to it as it would appear that they owe you money.Just like Canuck says

We have 110 sqm and pay € 160 a month and there are 4 people living here.We always get something back so draw your own conclusion.

Well, I live near Olympia park, and have a 68 sq.mtrs apartment with 3 rooms and a kitchen. We are 2 with a child. So I am not sure how much neben kosten it can occur.

Not quite, when you move in or out is irrelevant. The landlord has to give you the Nebenkostenabrechnung within 12 months of the end of the accounting period (Abrechnungszeitraum), which is usually (but not always) 01.01 - 31.12. So on the assumption that this is the case here the round-up for the period September - December 2006 is due by 31.12.2007.

@Mik, that sounds very cheap for 110 m2, do you not have central heating, so that you pay heating and hot water separately (Etagenheizung)?

RMA we have central heating,radiators in every room and hot water.Its heated by gas.All included in my nebenkosten of € 160.We normally get about € 300 - €400 every year.The first 2 years we got between € 600 - € 700.We live in a 3 party house,house split up in to 3 appartments 2 downstairs and the first floor belongs to us.Electric costs us € 83 on top of this

@Mik, unless you live in a brand new, extremely well insulated building that's very cheap. Sounds to me like the owner of the house lives in one of the other two flats and isn't passing on (probably through ignorance) all sorts of costs that would normally be charged for such items as garden maintenance, waste disposal, cleaning, insurance, Grundsteuer, cable TV, etc. (some of those obviously not necessarily applicable in a normal house as compared to a block of flats).

Looks like you got real lucky, enjoy it!

Having said that, if you're still getting 300 € - 400 € back, I'd be wanting to see my monthly payments reduced by at least 20€ - 25€!

@eos400d, If you're living in a block of flats (as opposed to a normal family home, like Mik) and it's more than about fifteen years old, then the 190€ is probably not far off the mark - then it probably comes to individual life style which decides whether you pay more or get money back. Having said that, energy costs were much lower in 2006, so you might well be entitled to a repayment for that period.

Since pushing for a Nebenkostenabrechnung for 2006 might also cause the landlord to think about checking out the costs for 2007, I'd be inclined to wait till January 2009 and then push hard, if necessary going to the Mieterbund/Mieterverein for assistance. If your accounting period is 01.01 - 31.12, which is usually the case (check your contract), the landlord can then no longer claim any excess back for 2006 or 2007, but you are still entitled to any surplus, if you've paid to much.

HI RMA,

Thanks for the info. I live in apartment blocks and it more than 15 yrs old. I have a fixed contract for 3 yrs, so I have to vacate until September 2009. She already informed me that the extension is not possible because she herself wants to move in.

Until now she has not been pushy on anything, and once when I asked about nebenkosten, she said that she cannot pass on all the costs to me and that she has to make a calculation, which by her words I guess hates. May be I will wait until 2009. I will start looking for an apartment in 2009 and she said If I find a suitable apartment I can also vacate before Spet, 2009.

regards

Is this written into your contract? If not, then if you want to stay in the flat, she'll have a long hard job getting you out.


As is usually the case in Germany, what costs the landlord can pass onto the tenant and what he cannot, is highly regulated and sometimes just plain weird - I've never been able to fathom out why they can pass on the Grundsteuer B, for example. So you may well be right, she possibly doesn't fancy doing the calculation, possibly because she's scared of getting it wrong.

HI RMA,

Yes this clause is written in my contract. Of course, we took this flat know the fact that we have only 3yrs. Its sad that we have to vacate it, but then lets wait and see if she changes her mind next year.

RMA actually the place is about 200 years old but the walls are 2 foot thick.Inside ita all been done in the last 6 years and glad to say that they must have used a lot and good insulation.In our place its warm in winter and when you go into the attic its brass.Left the monthly payments as they are because of the rising energy costs.sooner pay a little more a month than get a big bill at the end of the year.