Which? survey says German cars are crap

German car makers fall farther behind Japanese rivals

German car makers are falling farther behind their Japanese rivals. Audi and BMW have joined VW in the worst category of the Which? annual car reliability survey.

Japanese manufacturers are going from strength to strength - Honda, Mazda, Lexus and Toyota are still top of the table and have been joined by Suzuki. Korean manufacturer Hyundai also keeps its place in the top rank.

But at the other end of the table, the picture's gloomy for German brands, which are no longer living up to their dependable reputation. VW, which dropped into the lowest category last year, has been joined there by BMW and Audi, which has dropped two places in two years.

Ford shows it's possible for a manufacturer to reverse its reliability fortunes. Constantly rated by Which? as poor prior to 2001, this year it consolidates its position in the good category. Sadly, the likes of Citroën, Fiat, Land Rover, Peugeot, Renault, Rover and Vauxhall show few signs of following suit.

More bad news for the Germans - they occupy the bottom three places in the individual model breakdown table for cars up to two years old. The wooden spoon goes to the Audi TT for the second year running; around one in five has broken down in the last year. The old model Mercedes E-class is second from bottom, while the VW Polo is third.

By contrast, owners of Japanese cars still have plenty to smile about. For the third year running, not a single Mazda 323 in the survey broke down. Other cars that were breakdown-free are the Hyundai Getz, MG ZT/ZT-T, Toyota Corolla and the outgoing Toyota Corolla Verso.

"German cars have always been expensive, but our survey reveals a worrying drop in reliability that makes them look distinctly over-priced. Audi, BMW and VW may be the choice of more badge-conscious buyers, but owners of Japanese cars are far less likely to spend time on the hard shoulder or face hefty garage bills," said Malcolm Coles, editor of Which?.

In January 2004, the survey went to 80,000 randomly selected Which? readers. The responses provided information on 34,277 cars up to eight years old. The full results, including detailed information on 150 different models, will be published in September's Which? Car 2004/05.

Well, I'm very happy with my little Peugeot, small and nippy, but big enough to get everything and everyone in.

Shame that the aftersales service is crap!

Don't need an expensive low-spec German car, but obviously alot of people here still do! The Germans still have it too good if they can and want to spend money on BMW, Audi, VW et al, IMHO.

It certainly puts paid to the myth of German superior craftsmanship

For what it's worth... here's my two bob's worth :

I think much of German industry are digging their own graves in return for a quick profit and a big bonus for the shareholders who have little interest in the long tern future of the companies. Part of the trouble is "made in Germany" has been keeping this country afloat for decades. After the 2nd world war a lot of hard graft produced what we called the "economic miracle", thousands of small firms producing quality goods by people who took pride in their work, my 1953 VW is a fine example, simple, reliable and well engineered if not utilitarian!
(Citroen were offered the design after the war but decided it would never sell :doh: .
The sad reality of the past 20 years is that all the major players in the car and component industry (and many other industries) have all gone abroad (mainly to eastern Europe) to save money and keep the shareholders happy, the fact that what they are churning out is often unreliable and poor quality doesn't interest the shareholders at all
..and it keeps the car dealers in work

Take the example quoted in the report :Audi TT where are they being built ? ...Ingolstadt ? ..no ...Hungary of course! Audi no longer produce any production engines in Germany at all, (listening A3 ? )..sad but true, again there are all coming from Hungary. Opel just opened their new production plant in Poland taking part of the Zafira production from Bochum amidst nasty whisperings that it had all been engineered well in advance as part of a deal with Lockheed-martin to sell F-16 fighters to Poland, in return for Lockheed using their influence to swing the deal for Gerneral Motors to produce in poland ...and that' just the tip of the iceberg.
Sadly it's no longer possible to sell "made in Germany" because it seldom is ! ...now it's now "Engineered in Germany" ...well it sounds good anyway

Yep, definately agree on that, Last year Hubby brought a new M3, after a few months there was a constant knocking in the rear, it took 4 visits to the dealer (each time they said it was fixed!!) to finally correct the problem & then another visit recently to reset the chip. (He really doesn't like the car either & wants a subaru wrx.) Whereas my Honda (6 yrs old now) has never been in except for annual check ups & a fix after a post jumped out at it

now that is old mac but they do it in Györ in Hungery over the border from the A4 fom Wien just after the border been ther seen it 5 yeaers ago it's a big plant to potast & döring does that (Driving) and by the way all off the kabels for a car comes from hundery to and it goes to Dagenham or to Saarlouis or Gent and that is Ford

as a devout opel omega driver I priced a replacement with adam and his boys, saaaay WHAT! now waiting for my Toyota Avensis to be delivered.

And i thought we are talking about cars here.Opel they are not car they are a nihtmare

Come on A3, credit the correct person with the quote ... which I didn't know by the way.


A3 Translator Says

Now that is old news Mac, They are built in Györ, Hungary, which is just across the border on the A4 from Vienna. I was there 5 years ago whilst driving for Potast and Döring, and by the way, all cable looms are made in Hungary for Dagenham, Saarlouis and Gent Ford plants.

@ A3 this is not a personal attack on you and your car, it’s a discussion about the failing German motor industry.

Mac Translator Says


I know i was just only saying that i was ther and seen it you shud ask first And put your M-Fon on

I cant say that.

I've not had a problem with an Opel, but I've heard the Safira is more of a skip on wheels than a quality car.

I know people who have had Opels and Vauxhalls over the years and are quite happy... 'cept the price has too many digits.


If I don't know and want to know I'll ask... If I haven’t asked, you can guess that I don't want to know... and stick your Mac translator on that

Emmm i know you are going to kill me for this.
Sorry mac
Mac Translator Says
Safirav >>>Zafira

As I said before if they are not carefull some of the German Car manufacturers will end up going the same way Mark and Spencers did (who started farming out clothing production to east-block countries years ago and now produce virtually nothing in uk), they've been sitting in their "Ivory (made in Germany ) towers" for too long refusing to pay attention to critisism from their traditional grassroot customers and putting big profits before quality ...lets hope they realise before it's too late

My one year old BMW has started giving me a few problems recently. Not the engine but all the bloody electronics. The park distance control broke twice, the TV suddenly starts flashing for no reason, and now one day it tells me a blinker bulb needs replacing, the next day it's fine. And the fuel cap vibrates loudly when the stereo is on.
I'll get myself a merc next time.

Don't expect it to be any better! There's so much electronics in modern cars, that their reliability is rapidly heading in the direction of Windows.

In the first road test of the current 5'er BMW, the tester concluded with the comment that "we had to reboot it once, as well". No, not the over-complicated on board control/navigation centre (which I believe is based on Windows CE), but the motor control system. Whilst overtaking one time (fortunately on the autobahn), the car suddenly stopped responding to the gas pedal. After pulling over to the hard shoulder, the technician accompanying them dived into the boot and somwhere in the depths pulled out a plug, waited 10 seconds and plugged it back in - thereafter everything was OK.

As the German's like to say - Reboot tut gut!

The German car export market will no doubt suffer, but here in Germany, the German automobile is still king ... that will never change to the German petrol-head’s point of view.

@ Luke

Dont. Have the same problem with my Merc 2 years old 19,000km. Every month or so says that my number plate bulb is fused and then the next time I switch it on nothing. Happens again the next month. The dealer says its no problem... Also the command system (the integrated navi, sound system, telephone) just switches off on its own and re-boots, normally in the middle of a phone call every once in a while.

I'm driving a merc hire car at the moment, a E200 CDI. Am quite impressed although it seems really small compared to the old model and my X5. I'm driving back and forth from Sylt at the weekends and it sits like a rock on the road and still has more in the bag at 200kmh. (FYI I only drive that speed when the road is very clear). But the navi system is rubbish. It showed there was a 16km jam coming up but didn't suggest a detour. I ended up shooting off down a road for Winterdienst only for about 300yds before nipping out onto the landstr. Nice move, I thought. And if it wanted to recalculate the route I had to take my George Michael CD out and put the navi CD in.

Some of you guys are probably thinking "Jesus, he's got problems..." But I tell you, a decent navigation system with a digital map is something you can't do without once you have experienced it.

At high speeds nothing beats it. I did Hamburg to Göttingen (274km door to door) in 1 hour 45 mins. The TMC system is really bad but I hear that the new DVD based one that they have in the 2004 cars is much better.

Surley you dont need a nav system for that Devil, it's straight down the BAB7

@Mac some guys our women even need it for shopping.our some watsh tv when they are Driving :doh:

The big problem is that once you've got used to having a nav system available, you give up concentrating on where you're going. Net result is that if you then find yourself in conversation with the driver/passenger in a car without navigation you finish up adding 100 klicks, or so to your return journey from Dresden because you don't notice your turn off the A4 onto the A14! :$

I don't have and don't need a nav system. But one of our trucks is kitted out with the soddin thing, the problem is that the driver can't find his was from A 2 B when he's in his car... or on his bike come to that. He lead a bikers tour through Thüringen last year and added hours to the journey coz he got lost.

(yes A3, I am talking about you know who )

Yes but it's more than worth it if only because you don't have to ask the wife to map read anymore.

Nav systems are great for people like me who rarely drive and don't really know their way around town without using the U-Bahn. I had one in a hire car recently and it saved me all the headaches of finding a route through central Munich (there are a few one-way streets that cause problems if you don't know about them).

Only problem I had was with those tunnel/junction combinations. It always ended up telling me "TURN LEFT NOW" when I was in the middle of the tunnel.

There was an interesting report on auto, motor und sport tv on Sunday, where some German university or other had carried out a study into the best way to deal with traffic jams on average. Their findings showed that on the whole it's best to simply wait until the jam has cleared because i) the official detour route signs take you too far away from the autobahn for you to save any worthwhile time, and also so many other drivers are following the same signs, and ii) many navigation systems don't pick up the traffic announcements from the radio adequately enough to provide you with suitable alternatives.

However, I do concede that they're superb for getting you around unfamiliar territory. I experienced one for the first time only last week; the standard navi system fitted in an Audi A3 with a small but clear display in the instrument panel and the audio instructions, and it was great.

@ Slack

The Navi system was really needed in the city and for the trip (2 hrs later to Dassel). I normally try and plan a trip using map24 and then compare it to the route the navi system gives me. Though its great for cities like Hamburg where finding your way in the city is impossible without it. Plus the extras like find the nearest gas station when you are on the A7 with only fuel for 20 kms left.

@mac I know when he came passt me ones he sayd he is lost and he told me that he has got a nav so i told him to use it (H... ) is a plank


@luke sorry we are no Kloggis they need the wommen to tell them of too our how badder can you get if a women tells you wher to go

@Devil
Hamburg >Göttingen>and then Dassel now that is so esay dont need a nav for that

I've seen a few programs on this subject, and the general conclusion seems to be that for jams under 5-6 km you're better off staying put, between 6 and 10 kms, it may be sensible to look for an alternative route. Much over 10 km and you're in trouble either way because there will be so much traffic on the alternative routes that they'll be clogged as well.

As far as sat-nav itself is concerned, I've got the Aldi system (July '03 version) and I wouldn't want to be without it. I often have to visit customers in towns where I've never been before (and may probably never be again) and now it's no problem - type the address in and off you go. No more studying maps for ages, or getting navigation S/W on the computer to print out a list of directions, which are then too complicated to keep in your head (so you finish up trying to read them with one eye on the road at the same time - not to be recommended!).

The Aldi S/W is from Navigon, who have a very good reputation in the business and the directions are excellent - e.g. "leave the autobahn on the slip road to the right and then turn left at the end of the slip road", the "turn off now" command being given at the start of the slip road, not where the roads divide as on some systems! With roundabouts you're told which exit to take. As far as the routing is concerned, I've never had the feeling that I've been taken a long way round, which you certainly can't say for all these beasts. If it has a fault, it's that it tries a bit too hard to find the shortest route and as a result I've been down a few farm tracks and put a few scratches on the car when one such road in Italy turned out to be narrower than the car! :$ . (That problem seems to be a bit reduced on the current version.)

When you consider that the whole kit costs only about the price of a bottom end pocket PC, the value for money is unbeatable. I'd looked at organisers a few times over the past few years, but always came to the conclusion that they were too expensive for the use I would make of it - now I've effectively got one thrown in for free.

To be precise, the road wasn't quite narrower than the car, but when you take account of the radius of the corner I was in, the parllel distance between where the nose of the car kissed the outer wall and the rear door on the other side met the inside wall . it was!