Autobahnraser

I have just heard that the Autobahnraser who caused the fatal accident on the A5 last year has got 18 months !!

Maybe this will serve as a lesson to those arrogant Merc drivers who sit on your bumper in the left hand lane. By the same token it also ought to be a lesson to those equally annoying unexperience motorway drivers who sit in the middle lane and provoke others into taking risks !

Does anyone have any other views to share !

hi Caroline

you are treading on hallowed ground here ... the right for a well disciplined (sp??) law abiding German citizen to throw away all regard for human life once he gets behind the wheel of a ridiculously powerful automobile and roars up and down a stupidly small two lane Autobahn with little or no speed limits ...

we've all seen it

was that the test driver for mercedes?
the one who said it was not him!!
drove up behind a woman doing 200 and she panicked and went in the bushes
he just carried on as if nothing happened
and his work mates said he always drives like that
the b*st*rd should get life

I think that one has to be careful about judging this man too harshly at the moment, as there is no 100% certainty that he was actually to blame (or that the car he was driving was the"culprit").

Obviously, if it was him, then he deserves to be locked away, but if it wasn't then all I can say is poor man. Even before the trial, it was like a witch hunt - the press interviewing the local butcher, baker and candlestick maker to find out all about him!

I wonder if we'll ever know for sure!

I actually think that one of the main problems is the fact that on the Autobahn, you are *allowed* to drive as fast as your car will let you! It is then obvious that there are going to be horrific accidents!

The simple fact is that if you are not overtaking anything you should not be in the outside lane - Not my rules - It's the law.

Apparently she wasn't overtaking anyone and according to the court notes was not exactly pootling along herself. "Witnesses" reckon she was doing about 180Km/h...In a Hyundai.

The guy was convicted on witness statements and I have to say it is a little strange that suddenly autobahn users have become experts in the speed of other drivers passing them.

That is not to say that you can harass drivers into the other lane, but looking at it logically, if she had been obeying the law the accident wouldn't have happened as she wouldn't have been in the outside lane.
Her inexperience also had something to do with it. To "tug" the wheel at those kinds of speeds is almost always going to lead to you going all agricultural.

The problem with autobahns is that there are too many drivers who try to police their own rules.
I can't count the amount of times I've been doing between 180 and 220 and people have flashed me as I have gone past or have deliberately lifted their foot off as I have approached from behind, touched the brake pedal so the lights come on or worse still, actually braked hard.
What seems to have escaped these idiots realisation is that by behaving like this they are putting themeselves at risk of causing an accident and killing themselves.

There is nothing wrong with speed. It is bad, aggressive driving and unpredictable idiot busy bodies who behave as I have just described who cause accidents.

If the driver who has been jailed was behaving like this then he deserves everything he got, but the fact he got such a short sentence and a short ban shows that there must have been evidence to show it was not entirely his fault.

I wonder if she had lived what would have happened to her. There has been a similar case in the UK. The female driver lived. Her daughter did not. The mother was found guilty and is now serving 18months for causing death through dangerous driving.

As someone who these days does the same job as this guy, I find it bizarre that he would be driving in the aggressive manner reported by our (oh so trustworthy) media.
Like me he is more than likely uniquely acquainted with the damage a car can do away from the roads and is also able to get any frustration out of his system on the track.

The first rule of driving on an autobahn as I was taught it is "The danger in front is always more manageable than that approaching from behind". In other words let the twat behind you go past with zero fuss and hold up - Look after yourself, ignore him, stay safe!
I for one do drive quickly (There is a recommended speed limit on all autobhans by the way) but I don't push and shove, don't approach slower traffic at Mach 3 and leave good space.

On the flip side if I see someone approaching me quickly I move over as soon as I've overtaken (I don't get all stubborn and arrogant because he's going faster than me - That's the sort of thing that causes crashes and road rage) but if I am overtaking I keep an eye on what's going on in front and ignore my rear view mirror.
He's not going to bump me out of the way and he's got a much better idea as to how close he is to me than I have.

The thing I like about the autobahns is that they call for people to actually concentrate on their driving full-time and use their own judgment. The problems on German motorways are exactly the same as the ones on UK motorways...That have 70mph limits on them - So it isn't speed - It's bad driving. Believe me if you've driven in England recently you'd have been gagging for autobahns within an hour!

Sorry about the rant!!!

By the way, despite the lack of speed limits, there are actually less accidents on German autobahns than there are on UK motorways.

I think France with its 80mph limited Autoroutes which still lead the accident charts.

I recently drove to Warstein im Sauerland. I was overtaking a huge row of Trucks crawling up a hill (Sorry Slack, no offence) and as I looked into my Rear View Mirror, I saw this Bloke in a BMW come flying towards my car. There was no way for me to pull over and I was shitting myself. He peeped his Horn and had the Indicator flashing and waved his fist. I couldn´t believe it, even if I wanted I couldn´t go any faster because I had lots of cars in front of me.

I started to get really angry as I had my 2 year old Daughter in the car and with all the noise she started crying. When I eventually could pull over that Wan@ker overtook me and mouthed something. So I did the Foxtrott Tango sighn closely followed by the typical sighn for these arseholes and my cousin took down his licence plate.

I reported him at the next Police station that I came across, but wether they pull him up or not...who knows. I lost faith in the german police a long time ago.

Dear Bloke

German Autobahns (and other roads) are substantially more dangerous than the UK... even though the UK has much higher traffic density.

Here's the evidence across Europe.

As a regular driver on German Autobahns... and with a Merc... I can only say that the standard of roads and visibility in Germany is significantly worse than in the UK (especially in poorer weather conditions and at night). I'm sure this goes some way to explaining the large disparity in the 'results'. Driving habits aren't, in my opinion and experience, much different in Germany and the UK.

No offence taken , and as for the Polizei... your not alone .

Mickey - You've just proved my point. Why get angry (particularly as you had your daughter in the car)? Just ignore him. He can't go anywhere and you are going to be far safer concentrating on what is going on in front of you than what is going on behind - You are much more likely to run into the car in front of you whilst you are looking in your rear view mirror at what is going on behind

LIke everyone if you get angry, the adenalin starts to flow, you stop concentrating on the job in hand and you are more likely to make decisions that could harm you and those around you that you wouldn't if you stayed calm.
There is no place for anger on the roads - It is a huge problem and whilst I accept the other guy was angry too, two angry people is even more dangerous than one.

Adi - I have seen this document (a report into road deaths not accidents) before and the fact that by its own admission the evidence gathered is incomplete is by the by.

What the report shows is that the heavier and more dense traffic on A and Motorway roads in the UK leads to slower speeds (The average speed on the UK's M1 is 48mp/h) and with that slower speed therefore a lower fatality rate than that of anywhere else in Europe.
Clearly if you are involved in an accident on an autobahn you are more likely to suffer more serious injury or be killed due to the higher speeds at which you are travelling.

A separate study though shows from evidence gathered accross Europe that the UK although having a lower number of deaths on its roads (because of the lower average speed of travel thanks to the higher density of traffic) actually has a far higher number of accidents.
This just bears out the by now well accepted fact that the standard of driving on British roads and the attitude toward driving and what is involved by British drivers is woefully poor - And the government who sees the motorist as a cash cow isn't helping -

Just to give you an idea of what I mean, because of the archaic rules in place in the UK there is this crazy situation where it's known that 20% and rising of all cars on the road are uninsured (British policy holders pay a £60 a year premium to cover losses caused by uninsured driver accidents)
The governments answer? - Well they've just capped fines for driving without insurance at a maximum of £200. So it is actually cheaper to risk getting caught (unlikely) and pay the fine than it is to insure your car!!!
The huge number of drivers who don't insure there cars don't see the fact that if they have an accident that damages someone elses car or a human being that they are leaving them with no financial support - This is so typically selfish.

Turning to your point about road markings; Visibility at night on any road in any country is poor hence you need to adjust your driving accordingly, drop your speed and concentrate more.

I too travel extensively accross Europe (around 75,000miles a year) although certainly not in a Merc thank you very much (and I am still trying to work out why your choice of car was relevant to your comment!) and I have to agree that in the wet at night it is nigh on impossible to see the road markings on German autobahns but again you have to adjust your driving accordingly.

At the end of the day there will always be accidents on the roads no matter what the speed limit and people will always be killed on our roads no matter how many traffic Police there are patrolling them - Asking the human brain to make decisions when it is travelling at up to 10 times faster than it and the body it is being transported in were designed to do is always going to lead to disaster for some - Having said that it does seem to be far too easy to get a driver's licence. It's almost seen as a right - If you don't pass you're allowed to keep on trying. Perhaps some people aren't suited to driving in the same way I'm not suited to brain surgery?!?!? You should only be allowed to try a certain number of times and then that's it - No more - If you have a tendancy to get angry or panic you should be excluded from the get go.

Driving is dangerous, it is a skill at any speed on any road and requires absolute 100% attention at all times.

Jeremy Clarkson once said "What is incredible about our roads is not how many accidents there are, but how many billions of cars and trucks drive around everydaywithout hitting each other."

...That was longer than the last post - Someone call Norris McWhirter!!!

I think that if everybody who ever felt ,panic or anger whilst driving, would be excluded from driving, there wouldn´t be many cars left on the road.

How you handle those feelings is important. And yes I was shitting myself because he was right up my arse and if anybody infront of me would have braked then my car would have got it as there was not much distance between me and the Shithead behind me. And at that speed it would probably be fatal for my daughter aswell as anybody else in the car.

And yes I was angry because he scared my Daughter with his stupid behavier but not at any point didn´t I concentrate on my driving or jeopadize any lifes.

I am not a bad driver, I used to drive from England to all over Europe and never ever had any problems. But other then the Dutch( their cars are not fitted with indicators, either that or they haven´t located them yet) I think the Germans are arrogant drivers.

I gave up expecting a "THANK YOU" when I let them out of a Drive, Car Park, Road...! Ignorant ,Arrogant and Dangerous!

And the worst of them are Mercedes and BMW Drivers, even I noticed that.

There you go, this comes from a German who obviously has spend too much time in the UK. Sorry my fellow Germans, but aren´t we known to say as it is???

By the Way in my earlier post I was ment to write "Foxtrott Oscar", but for all I care he can Foxtrott Tango too if he likes. (Whatever that is)

But that's that point surely? - Because you were concentrating on him you were too close to the guy in front so there was no space if the guy behind did hit you - You shouldn't be worrying about what he is doing. It is your repsonsiblity to look after the guy in front of you - If you hit him it's your fault whatever the circumstances as you were too close given what was going on around you - You cannot do anything about the guy behind you. If he hits you he hits you, but I can't think he ever would, and what can you do to to stop this happening anyway?

If you're that worried just back off gently and safely and pull over and let him past - Yes his arrogance has won over but at least you're safe and out of his way.

It's called defensive driving and means you keep out of situations that threaten your safety.

Bloke

Britain has the lowest road fatality rate in the world.
Britain’s motorways are also the safest and are also the busiest.
Britain’s A-roads are also safest and the busiest.

The figures that matter are injuries and fatalities. Britain is significantly better than other European countries, including Germany.

The 'holes' you refer to in the previous data are not holes in British or German data, so you argument is not valid. Where is your supporting evidence of number of accident comparisons?

Hi TBOTR

Your point about looking behind (in the rear view) reminds me of a few years ago, whilst taking driving lessons in England, my instructor told me to look every 7 seconds meanwhile he wasn't paying attention to much as I very nearly turned in to the oncoming traffic on a main road, that ended my lessons with him...anyway back in Germany I then took lessons from a German instructor who kept telling me to stop looking in the mirror all time as we would have an accident and I do tend to agree with him...and you too.

Hi Bloke,

Obviously it must have escaped your attention that in my previous post I said that there was no way that I could pull over. And secondly, I did not say that I was too close to the car in front, I do keep a distance. It was the car behind me that didn´t and that´s the reason why I was worried about an emergency brake.

Having now explained my case, I must say that I found the roads in England far safer then the ones over here. But I must also say that the reason for that may be the fact that I learned to drive in the UK and therefore used to them. And before you say that this makes me an unsafe driver again I can tell you that it is not so. You can be safe as anything while you drive but it´s Idiots like the one I encountered that day that get you killed.

Hi Mickey.
I didn't say you were an unsafe driver. As a professional skilled driver I suggested how you could make yourself safer.

There is however always space to pull over if you back off the throttle and slow down until you find a gap to move into in another lane.

Again, you should be more worried about your own driving and more aware of what is going on in front of you than concentrating on and judging the driving of those behind you. Whatever someone gets up to behind you is completely out of your control - There is nothing you can do to stop him doing whatever it is he will do. You can always observe, manage or at least prepare for what is going on ahead of you.

Adi - I can't remember without looking up the last study I saw. I work as a road tester but it is my other work as a motoring writer that means I get to see countless studies commissioned by many different bodies all of whom are actively looking for an outcome that suits whatever their cause might be!

I disagree with you that only road injuries and fatalities matter - It is accidents of any type that can potentially lead to injuries. If someone runs into the back of you in one accident you might walk away inscathed. In an identical accident on another day you might end up in hospital with a broken collar bone.

Therefore it is logical that for the fatalities and injuries to drop, then all accidents whether or not they result in injury need to be looked at in any study.
As almost without exception every car accident is the result of some sort of driver error whether that be because of driver ignorance of either the rules of the road or how to handle a motor car or because of an unintentional mistake then those responsible for making policy should look more closely at the standard of driver education and whether indeed some people with certain personality traits not condusive to consistently safe driving should be allowed to hold a licence at all.

The only way of stopping accidents and injuries on the roads period, is to shut all the roads.

Another point - If road safety and car construction standards were the same now as they were in say, the 1960s when the car really rose to mass popularity then the number of fatalities and injuries and indeed minor bumps and shunts would be thousands of times higher than they actually are with all the advances that have been made.

The one area that has been advanced the least in the last 40 years is how drivers are educated and more importantly how potential provisional licence holders are vetted.

Driving is perceived as a "right" with people making sometimes hundreds of attempts to pass their test. How many times did you try taking a school test or exam before you gave up realising it wasn't for you and you weren't going to pass choosing a different career instead? (Sorry Adi and Mickey, that comment wasn't directed at you guys personally)
Perhaps those that don't pass the test after a set number of attempts should choose the bus. It'd make their lives and other drivers' lives a lot more relaxed and safer - And if the comments about the drivers of German built cars are to be believed, it would rid the autobahns of most of the berks in Mercs, bastards in beemers not to mention all those arschlochs in Audis!

Dear Bloke

The rearview mirror is in the car for a purpose!!!
Mirror, signal, maneouver is also something that every driver must do.

You're right that you cannot control somebody else's driving, but don't take a long look down the road and then pull out without making damn sure that you're NOT pulling out into the path of someone coming up behind you.
Pulling out isn't a right to be exercised whenever you feel like it. When you do it, you better take care of what's around you and not only what's in front of you.

PS: The comment about accidents mattering because the lead to injuries... the webpage I gave at the start of this thread quotes injuries and deaths, not only deaths.

The only way to improve your personal safety is to get a bigger car. We got an BMW X5 last year and it's amazing how people respond differently on the road. It's like I've suddenly earned respect. I can't remember the last time someone sat on my bumper at 160kmh+, flashing, giving the finger etc. In my 3-Series it used to happen all the time. I guess that they know that in a accident there's a good chance I'll come out of it better than them (especially encased in all those airbags)!! Although I think SlackMack will argue against this.

FYI I rarely drive faster than 160kmh ... i'm just not in that much of a hurry. I find it much ccoler to drive a fast car slow than a slow car fast.

Oh dear...Adi, we were were talking specifically about Micky who had had a problem with a driver close up behind him whilst he was in the outside lane. Obviously it goes without saying that the rear view mirror is to help you see what is behind and along side you before you change lane or maneouvre and should always be used in those situation (and also for regular monitoring when you are driving in normal conditions) but it is not adviseable to use it to concentrate on whatever it is filling your mirrors when you are in a line of fast moving traffic with no intention of changing lanes - You are much better off concentrating on what is in front of you so you don't hit it.

Also I understood the first time round that the document you linked to included injuries and deaths.
In my last message I was responding to the point you made about only accidents that include injury or death mattering. This is patently untrue as I hope I explained in my last message.

As for Luke, the X5 driver - I agree. I ran a 4.6 litre X5 for 3 months last year (Thank you BMW!). Apart from the fact that everytime I accelerated it tried to detach me from my spleen I enjoyed it very much.
You certainly do get a lot less hassle in one of these from the S Class, A8, 7 Series brigade and I can only assume that it is because of the extra height which gives it more road presence than those big bahnstorming saloons.

For some reason people don't mess you around in front either...as long as you don't drive aggressively and don't try to use it like a bulldozer anyway.

If you ever decide to chop the X5 in try and get a go in the new Overfinch converted 5 litre RangeRover. It's got even more on-road presence than the BMW, is faster, safer thanks to a total overhaul of the brakes and suspension and the 5litre chevy lump (they ditched the BMW 4.4 on principle!!!) sounds glorious - Especially at 160 klicks!

Simon I think you owe our lovely Mickey an apology, he is a she

why?
I don't understand why you think I would argue against.

We've "only" got the 3.0 litre diesel. It's fast enough (210kmh) and powerful enough (185bhp) for me. I'd rather spend more on luxuries on the inside than getting more horsepower. Does that make me a poof? I would never get a petrol SUV - they drink too much fuel. I wouldn't enjoy driving it if every time I put my foot down a bit I had to get my wallet out to fill up again.

What's the new Discovery like?

Luke please explain your comment

Oops! Sorry Mickey!

Ooh Yuck Luke - An oil burning X5? How could you? Lots of torque but lots of polution too.

I'll stick to LPG (Autogas) thanks. All the benefits and power of petrol without the cost or pollutants.

I think Slackmack, Luke reckons you'd argue against the benefit of airbags in a car when it's in collision with an LKW - Could be wrong though - It's just a guess.

Missed the bit about the new Disco Luke. I've actually managed a sneaky go in one of the pre-production cars. It is a totally different animal to the existing van of a thing in production now and not before time either. The old TD5 engine, although an inspiration at the time of its launch, is gutless by today's standards (except in the short wheel base Land Rover Defender I was bombing around in last week - It makes that go like stink!) and the transmission in the V8 petrol Disco makes it sound like a tank.

The thing is the current Discovery has sold in bucket loads in the States and the new one seems to have been specifically designed with this market in mind as the outside styling on the recent spy-shots shows.

Body roll is improved to new RangeRover/X5 standards though and it doesn't feel like you're driving a horsebox anymore!

it's early days for the new Disco yet and I'll be interested to see how much of the current drive actually arrives in the showrooms.

With the definite improvements Land Rover has made to its overall build and fit-and-finish standards and more specifically the performance of the new Discovery, I reckon it'll do well this side of the pond too though - Definitely makes more sense than the Lexus/Volvo/Toureg/Cayenne argument - I suspect anyone who has invested in one the last four is going to take one hell of a beating when they try a teilaustausch in a couple of years.

Is your real name Jeremy Clarkson?

Er, no - Sadly though he did teach me everything I know...so that wasn't a very long lesson.

I was more curious than anything else why he would suggest such a thing without explaining what he meant.

As we all know, size does matter… and not just when it comes to an accident.

Come on Luke, you have drawn me into this thread now, I was staying out of it because all I know about the incident in question is what I have read here, ok we are a little off topic now, but what did you mean?

All I meant was that even an X5 wouldn't stand a chance against your HGV (except in certain Top Trump categories). That's all. But I'd still rather have a head-on in an X5 than say in a Citroen AX (probably the most lightweight car I've ever driven).

Has anyone seen crash tests results for a Hummer? Now that looks safe.

...It probably is but anyone who buys a Hummer has to be a goaly short of a gang-bang in the first place so I guess it would be difficult for accident researchers to tell if there were any long term brain damage caused by a crash in one.

I agree ... but at least no one would cut you up anymore. And if they did you could just drive over them.

Just to save any missunderstandings in the future I have added a Picture to my Name now. :$

Thanks Slackmack for putting matters straight.

Sorry...Picture doesn´t seem to work. HELP !!!

Mickey ,

your picture is fine ... I think you win the Miss Britboard title

Thanks very much. :$

yep 10 out of 10 for the piccy

Thanks for clearing that up Luke.

I once smacked a Range Rover up the back end coz I was concentrating on the totty waiting to cross the road at the pedestrian lights and not on the car in front of me, there was no damage to the Rover but the carbon fibre bumper on my (then) M.A.N. was knackered.
If the M5 is as tough as a Range Rover then I would not like to meet one offset head on, yes air bags are a huge advantage, wish I had them on my truck… but more than that I wish I drove a conventional (truck with big bonnet sticking out the front, typical of American crap), they are exceptionally safer than the cabover that I drive.

All routes now go via Hamm :$

Hi Slack , will you take me with you ???

I´m getting embarassed now. Picture wasn´t that good or do you see something that I dont?

Mickey ,

it's a nice photo , you look great and we are all middle-aged men

enjoy the flattery ... have a nice weekend ... // Ian

Middle-age ? How old do you think I am? I am probably more middle- aged then the majority of you all.

But thank you all the same and have a nice weekend too!!

about 21 i would say...

anyway it is the look, the eyes sparkle, there is just something about that piccy

Yep that´s me...sparkling eyes the lot

I was 42 on Sunday ...but I aparently do look younger then that, and before somebody asks: Picture was taken last week.

see i AM older than you ... should i or should i

42 must be a typing error ... don't you mean 24 ???

I wish it was a typing error...no such luck

dont wanna swop mine around i would then be 54!!!

... and I would be back in Kindergarten ... 04 ...