Currently in UK, wanting to move to Germany

I hopefully will be moving to Germany this year. I need some advice regarding my 3 kids. I have 3 boys, currently in Reception class, Yr 6 and Yr 8 in the UK. I will be moving somewhere around the Darmstadt area (current plans but this could change). What is the best route of education? Are there good English schools around? The older boys are very keen to learn the language and we would be living with a German man (helps!) Can anyone give me any advice in this area? Has anyone had a 5 yr old start at a local school with native Germans, how did they get on etc...sorry about all the questions, but its the one worry I have! I would appreciate any input at all. Thanks.

Hellie,

I can well understand your concern and you have three children to consider. Hellie, You will need to take a deep breath if you are going to send your kids to a German school. It isn't going to be easy. Are you sure your youngest will be starting school? They don't normally take them until much older and he may end up in Kindergarten - where their sole aim is to socialize the kids. I am not sure but I have read that schools now only take foreign students at grade 1 entry only when they show a proficiency in the language.

Your two older boys will have a choice of the Hauptschule, Realschule, Gesammtschule or Gymnasium. It will all depend on how academically able they are. I live in Niedersachsen so I am not 100% sure if the schools are the same in Hessen.

Perhaps you could get your friend to contact the Schulamt in the area you are moving to and see if you could get some information or the German embassy in the UK.

Good luck with the move.

I don't want to put a damper on things before you even moved here, but ...

If I were you I'd move heaven and earth to get your kids into an English school... any English school. The German education system is not a patch on the UK.

Hello Hellie65,
unlike the previous postings, i have to say my all 3 children are here in school ( German school ), and i am personally impressed by the teaching system. Must add that my kids were born here so don't have the language barrier. The german school system is definately different from the uk , however it isn't bad and the qualifications what they can achive are looked upon world wide as very highly recommended. Its a difficult decision to make but it would help your children with the language problems and also get yourself a bit more intergrated into the German way of life.
Good luck whatever decision you may make.

In direct contradiction to something I have just read in response, I have heard it from many avenues that the German edu system is FAR superior to that of UK.

I guess you haven't been following the PISA study then? In terms of education, Germany is a 3rd world country. The UK did considerably better than Germany.

Sorry Adi
Pisa study was a load of B***ocks !
I have 3 kids in school here , son who attends gymnasium, daughter who at the age of 10 speaks Fluent Latin and all 3 are happy with the system and when i compare them to kids the same age in the uk, they are WAY in front in all subjects. To talk about this subject you have expierienced it yourself, also my wife attended the Gymnasium and compared to some grammer schools in the uk, well its a different league all together.
I am not saying that the UK school system is bad or not up to standard but the German system is in MY eyes a bit better than most people believe.

"To talk about this subject you have expierienced it yourself"

Wish i could spell proper as well !! Meant was : to talk about this subject , you should have first experienced it yourself"

Having 2 kids in German schools myself, I can only confirm, that the system in Germany is shite compared to the UK.

PS:

And regarding PISA - it was the same test applied to all schools in all countries, so what was the cause behind Germany's abysmal showing? Somehow the test was only wrong for Germany and they should have been in first place?
The results speak for themselves - in comparison to other developed countries, the system in Germany sucks. Let's look at the evidence, if you were to think of German students, do you think 'innovation', 'lateral thinking', 'pushing boundaries', 'independent thinking', 'intelligence'... errrr, no. And how many hours per day do they spend in school and at what age do they start?
You're lucky to have your kid(s) in Gymnasien (though these are only about average in international comparison)... but if you're a kid not in the 'elite' group, the system severely limits your potential, and that at the age of 10... The UK isn't all a bed of roses for sure, but I do compare to the UK and my experience is completely the opposite to yours... and the professionals making the comparisons agree with my view (it seems).

I agree with Adi, we as you know Craig had our problems with the Grundschule in our area, adding to that the PISA results and the scores of opinions we sought from german parents we know, we decided to take our wee girl out of the german system and she is now very happy, progressing and POSITIVELY encouraged at the British Military school here.We are poorer financially but much much happier.

So Hellie65, I would advise you to find out as much as you can from the schools in the area you are going to and ask, ask and ask again. go with your gut instinct too, I didn't and regretted it. Look on the Auf Wiedersehen Net board and look back the archives for my postings on "Kann Kind" for my story! Don't want to bore the pants off everyone again! or send me a private message and I'll fill you in on our experiences!! Good Luck!! Sandra

Sorry adi, still tend to disagree, it all depends i suppose where abouts you come from in the UK and whereabouts your kids go to school here(Bundesland), also you have to take into consideration that every child is different, my son for example isn't a keen school lad and only does as much as he should and no step further, my girls however are so keen on school and show so much interest that it makes me wonder why have they so much keeness for it , i gather that it is interesting for them and otherwise they would'nt be so happy with the system and the teaching.
Ok, everyone should be allowed to have there own opinion and do and decide what is better or worse for there childrens education. I believe that my decision is the right one for them.
Nice evening all.

P:S
"Having 2 kids in German schools myself, I can only confirm, that the system in Germany is shite compared to the UK. "

Adi, why don't you take them out if you are not happy with what they are being taught ?

Adi,

I have taken a number of days to check up on your claims (PISA etc.) and you are not correct. The relationship between subjects attempted and subjects passed (grades 3 and above) proves that Germany, in spite of it's convenient/preferable 0800 - 1330 school day timings, is FAR ahead of most European countries.
Possibly it is the case that your children are failures.

Note: Your use of the word 'shite'; please let us keep this site clean, and not fall to the levels of the board on www.aufwiedersehennet.com.

Craig

You're right of course, that the Bundesland you live in has a large impact on the quality of education received (Since education is not organised at a national level expected achievement levels and results vary considerably across Germany).

Unfortunately we are not living in one of the areas which are heavily populated by ex-pats, so there is no English or Multinational school to make that possible.
Since you MUST send your kids to school in Germany (no home teaching), it's German school or nothing... OK, go back to UK, but that's more difficult in our circumstance than spending more time and effort ourselves and by getting Nachhilfe here in Germany.

Our experience is that the German education system is more a case of 'attending school but getting educated at home'. In our experience, it's a system where the parents do most of the motivating and teaching and where the (majority of) teachers are frittering the day away waiting for retirement and a fat pension.

I completely agree with Sandra regarding motivation, generating interest, etc. (lack of it from German teachers)... Most German teachers hand out books and bits of paper but teaching is done at home. On the plus side, I have met 2 good teachers but they're a rare breed indeed... they actually recognise the benefit of offering encouragement...

Fletch, comments like that are far far worse than any amount of swearing.

You are obviously some low life who should return to AWN immediately.

Dear Fletch

I suggest you read the PISA reports again... perhaps you're a product of a German education because you obviously haven't understood the results of the PISA study correctly.

Regarding my kids... they're fluent in 2 languages, which is more than the German kids in their classes. They're also performing in the top 3rd of their classes overall (or so we are told). But this is IN SPITE OF the system and not BECAUSE of it. We have spent a great deal of time, effort, money and nerves to give them an education, most of which was got outside of the traditional German classroom.

Hi,
i agree with Adi the german school system is run on a basis of
you come here and get taught at home. i think the system is good but the teachers are crap. had my run in with them many a time, the last only a few months ago with the secretary blocking my way out just because i would not give her my daughters mobile phone!!

as i said the system is good, the other thing you should also look into is how long do you plan to be in germany for?
if it is long term then a german school is better for the children in the long run ie. what will they do then when they leave school?

Adi,
what you say is partially true. The kids do have a hell of alot of homework and if it wasn't for my wife i would be lost. Also the teachers at a whole seem to be living an easy life and enjoying the long holidays they recieve (my sister-in-law is one ). There are however a lot of young new teachers being introduced into the system and they seem to be trying to put a bit more "pep" into the teaching side of things. All in all =good schools & good teachers and bad schools & bad teachers are everywhere, i am lucky to have my school days well behind me and we have to make the best of the situation what we are in.
Good luck to all.

Dear Hellie

I don't know if you're still bothering to read this thread, but after cooling down a little, I'd suggest the following:

1. Visit the German school which your kids would (probably) attend, to get your own impression. Try to get a contact to the parents group of the class your kids would be in. They can give you a more even opinion about that school and the teachers compared to other schools in the area, their own experiences, etc.

2. Visit a British (or international) school in the area (if this type of school is a possibility where you will be living). Do the same evaluation.

3. Think about how long you will be staying in Germany. If it's for a fixed time, then my suggestion would be heavily weighted in favour of a Brit/International school. If you're here for the long haul then it'd tend towards a German school (because this will make it much easier to learn German and fit in later by doing things 'the German way').

4. If you decide to go for a German school, be aware that you're expected to make A LOT of effort with their education at home. It's not only expected it's a 'must', especially for kids of foreign parents. Also, make sure that they participate in lots of out-of-school activities to make more friends and improve their German (since extra-curriculur activities are not a big thing in German schools).

Whichever way you go, good luck to you and your kids.

Dear Craig (& Fletch)

I guess we could argue all day (and longer) about this. I think the common ground we have is that there are good and bad schools and good and bad teachers, both in the UK and here in Germany.

Of course, our opinions are shaped by our experiences. I'm happy that your experiences are good. I wish that all us parents experiences could be as good and I really hope that the education system here improves. It gives me no joy to think that it is not as good as the UK. I'm not trying to defend the UK and not trying to keep Germany 'down' (my opinion of German system).

It would be a very happy day for me too, if the next PISA assessment (and the reality) showed that the German education system was the world's best.

Ok Adi

PEACE

Yikes! wasn't sure which smilie to use when I read all of this!

Gosh! You lot have given me lots to think about! My youngest son of 5 has started school here in the UK and is quite a bright little thing. Picks up things fairly quickly and already knows his numbers, days of the week, animals etc (that type of thing) in German too He has learnt this from my born and bred German partner and me (I am by no means any good at the language but know more now than i ever did at school) My partner lives near Darmstadt and he is trying to teach me the 'lingo', I often say when not being able to pronounce the words properly...'Can't I just speak like a retard?' hehe...

Anyway back to the subject of education...my youngest son I don't think would be a problem to go into a German school but I am worried about my eldest 2 sons aged 11 and 13. We are planning on a long stay in Germany but to put them into a German school would be out of the question (they would understand virtually nothing) An English school where they teach the German language would be the way to go but are there many schools like this? Ones that don't cost approx EUR 12,000 each per year (Frankfurt International Language Sch) Perhaps I am being a little over optimistic.

One things for sure, I have a LOT of investigating to do. My partner will do the initial leg work for me but then it will be down to me...*panics*

I'd like to say how much I like this board. You make me laugh whether its a joke, yr funny comments or yr 'digging' at each other! It is nice to know that, when I eventually get to Germany (fingers crossed) that I am not totally 'Germanised' (yes not a word I know before anyone mentions it ) There seems to be a fair community of ex-pats 'hanging' around Germany so I wouldnt have to feel completely isolated. I know it will be hard at first but I will make all efforts to get out there and meet other people and who knows may even become fluent in German albeit with a very strange accent I'm sure

Thanks for all of your comments which have totally confused me (only joking!) I have taken them all on board and will now go into the deep dark midst of looking into education in Germany...*shakes*

Thanks again!

You are welcome ! Enjoy your stay, mines been going on for 24 years !!

Hellie65,

the problem with your older sons is if they want to learn a trade in germany they will need alot more than just learning the language, they will need to do things (school wise) the german way, so if your stay is longer then you have got lots of thoughts ahead of you.

as with Craig my stay has been going on for 29 years and i have seen my 3 sons through german school (1 still is) the other two are learning a trade here at the moment. would they be doing this if they went to an english school..i doubt it very much.

but of course the decision is yours, these are only thoughts for you on your way... glad i dont have to any more

Hi Hellie!
Well you,ve had a good cross section of opinion there! My kids are young 3 and 6, and our 6 yearold like your wee one is a bright spark. The teacher she got was a lazy B**** and was SO negative and cold that we battled with her constantly to help instead of criticise her.She just kept saying "she needs to go back to Kindergarten!" even though she could read, write and do simple maths! she'd have been nearly 7 before she started in the german school if we did that and it was so boring for her as they were just starting to learn their letters something she'd done in her nursery year aged 4!
However after 2 months and no joy we decided to move her. Thank god there is a British Military school near us! So we're poor now and will be poorer in september when my smallest is 4 and goes into the reception class but what the hell?? You do your level best to help your kids don't you? We've decided to limit our stay in Germany to when my oldest is in the last primary class as the secondary school fees are a lot more.
The PISA results are interpreted well by the Bertelsmann Institute..they have a web site..worth a look!
Good luck and let us know how you get on!

Sandra

Hellie, wherever you put your kids into school it will be different to where they are at the moment. Prepare them well and discuss the pros and cons with them as it is really their future that's at stake here, the older two should be able to feel they have at least participated in the decision.

There is information about international schools in Germany (many have their own websites) at

www.agis-schools.org/home/index.html

The fees do vary enormously. Also, some have official German school status which makes the fees tax deductible.

Good Luck

Sandra, is there a web address for the Bertelsman analysis of PISA you mentioned ?

my 2 cents :

I have three kids in the education system hear and the normal schooling is pathetic on all levels, the teachers are on the most part a complete waste of space
and I have a sister in law who is a teacher and a number of friends of my wife are teachers here so I do have inside info over the other side of the fence.

Either your kids learn at home or they fail, a good suggestion would be to sack all teachers here, bringing in complete idiots as replacements could only be an improvement.

Sure you`d find examples of worse schools somewhere else but the Pisa study bore out the reality, the German education system is third world.

My kids go to the Gymnasium here in Bavaria and its in fact one of the best most respected here so God knows what its like at an "average" school.

Hi Rebecca,

The Bertelsmann foundation is on www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de

Tonight however I couldn't find the analysis( I am a bit of a technophobe though!!) but I do have it on my PC and can email it to you, and anyone else who's interested if you like. Its in english.

Other websites on the subject are;
www.pisa.oecd.org/knowledge/summary/intro.htm

www.oecdobserver.org

Cheers! Sandra

PS Reading some of the entries on this thread has reassured us we made the right decision..for us.

I moved over here almost two years ago with my four kids. Two Boys age 18 and 16 and two girls 12 and 1 year old. Even though I am a German native my kids couldn´t speak the language at all.
My eldest son found work straight away where as my other son still had to sit his GCSE´s so I send him up to a British School in Hannover to finish school. My problem however was my daughter as the School that I had choosen for her wouldn´t take her because she couldn´t speak a word of German. I was advised to send her for 3 month to a School that was an Hour and a half away from here were she would learn German together with Türks and White Russians. The answer to that was a plain NO!
Instead I send her to the School I used to go to as a Kid, with only one drawback. She had to sit in class and draw pictures. I was told that all the Polish and Türkish Kids had to do that until they could speak the lingo. After endless efforts to make them understand that it would be helpful to her if they give her little pictures of objects with the german word written underneath I tried the previous School once more. Luck was on my side as Kids have this brilliant abillity to retain a foreighn Language (taught by German Friends and Family) really fast, she was excepted.
She now goes to Gesamtschule were she starts at 08.00am and finishes at 15.30 pm every day. She gets lots of help from the Teachers, also after School Homework Hour and so on.
I do agree that if you intent to settle over here then Kids are far better off to be integrated into the german system in all aspects and the most important one being School.
My Son´s are working now, they both have got a good job. My Daughter is beginning to bring home good grades. Within less then 2 years my kids are nearly fluent in German and there prospects are as good as anybodys over here.

But there is one thing that really makes me mad!!! Why do the German Teachers teach Kids English with an American accent???

Hi Mickey,

i agree with you completely on kids and german school (integration) if you are planning to stay here.

i also hate it when the kids are taught this american-english...
i worked for the american army for 11 years and they drove me up the wall

on the subject of teaching english with an american accent, I tutor a german girl in english and she came to me not long ago with her school homework, not only was the f word prevalent, but one week she comes with english spellings, and the next with american - how are they supposed to learn consistently?

(I'm sure I've written this somewhere else recently)

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread to be a grammar pedant, but really Craig your English is atrocious. Are you in fact German? I would think very carefully before taking any recommendations on education from this chap.

PS got something against ' or what?

Sorry to dissapoint you but i'm as British as egg & bacon or a chip butty ! My spelling may not be up to your high standards, but i never said i was perfect. If you want me to write in German , just let me know and we shall see how good your spelling in German is ok ?

Hello? It's an Internet Chatboard!

Yes, the spelling and grammar on these boards often leaves much to be desired and many worry about the state of the English Language and how everything used to be better in the Good Old Days. Certainly this type of communication pays little attention to the finer points of linguistics and has developed a dynamic and, one might say, a vocabulary of its own.

On the other hand, not everyone CARES about writing 100% correctly and simply wants to get their ideas and feelings across as quickly as possible; which is one of the things the Internet is about, isn't it? "Ah yes," you may say, "but everyone's grammar is suffering as a result!" Is it? Didn't people always make grammatical errors in LETTERS? OK - I'll accept that people tend not to pay as much attention to typing errors as they would with a letter, but does it really matter, or is speed more important?

You will meet people from all walks of life on chatboards and with all levels of formal education. And the beauty of the Internet is that it allows free speech - no matter how well-educated you are! Am I more important, because I have 'A'-Level English? Why would I be?!?

So - if you can write in an intelligble manner, I don't care how you spell. On the other hand, if you're teaching English, I think you have a duty to make sure that you're teaching it correctly. I taught English for a few years over here, with no formal training and found it quite hard - I had to think about almost every sentence, otherwise my students would have ended-up sounding like a load of carrot-crunchers! - No problem being understood in Exeter, but pretty much stuffed in the Home Counties!

Work it out for yourself. But I wouldn't go upsetting people by bemoaning their grammar. 'Bit personal, in my opinion...

Morning Matsan,
the main problem is like you said , the speed thing. I have a tendency to try and type quickly or not to look at the screen whilst writing, henceforth making mistakes . Ok my grammar is not as good as it could be but as long as i can understand "THE MESSAGE " which is the REAL point on being here and writing something, then i'm happy Unlike some other people who maybe have nothing better to do than criticise
Don't forget its POETS day !
Nice weekend to all.

Is it? Ah well, I'm really not much of a fan of poetry but here's the one poem that has remained in my tiny little brain since I was a kid.
Spike Milligan wrote:

String
is a very important thing.
Rope is thicker,
but string is quicker.

Not big, and not clever, but I like it.

Have a great (Fri)day, y'all.

A pedant writes...

Morning Matsan and Craig

Nothing wrong with being ungrammatic from time to time, even I'm not perfect. My main point was that someone whose grammar was so bad was possibly not the best person to advise on the quality of German versus English education.

PS It's Poets' Day (that is of course assuming there is more than one poet!)

Now please explain how you come or came to this conclusion

Which conclusion?

Hmm...lets see, the start of this thread was asked from a lady who is in the UK, she asked what type of education could anyone recommend for her children when she comes over to Germany.
To which i and many others gave free and honest opinions. NO ONE asked " Hey who can spell or not spell properly and who isn't good at grammar or not "
I don't think that Hellie is bothered about my spelling or if i can write "consanguinty" correctly or anything else. She was looking for information and if i am illiterate or a genius, it doesn't come into consideration.
So keep calm and if you are really bored, get a hobby.

that we are all dumb, idiotic brits

I would never refer to us Brits as dumb or idiotic. However if you ask my opinion about the Germans...

Anyway Craig, don't get all hot under the collar, just making an observation, this is after all a chat board. Besides, I'm a journalist/English teacher so it's my job to be pendantic!

Me getting hot ? If you were 27 , tall, blond and gave me your tel no, ok maybe !! But hot over this i doubt it !!

You have very specific tastes.

I have a wide variety of tastes, but i don't think you're my type !

Probably not, unless you have a thing for pedants.

I think the fun is all but drained out of this so have a nice weekend and keep your eyes open for anyone else who cannot/can't spell.

... you speak for yourself, Bully...