German dentists and wisdom teeth

Morning All,

Several dentists have told me that I'm the proud owner of four wisdom teeth, and all four are hidden away below my gums. All English dentists have ignored them, but on my last visit to a dentist in Munich I was told I should plan to have them removed - 'you will heal up better while you're young' she said. I have the priviledge of private insurance, and we all know how German dentists view this as a cash cow, but this dentist has always done a good job and I'm pondering what to do.

Should I take her advice? The teeth cause no discomfort, but the dentist said they're crowding the other teeth together. Having them dug out seems like a gruesome operation, all because when I'm 90 they might cause trouble.

Any advice?

I've been chastised too for having two out and two in, some people look at me in horror, amazed that I've still got these odious lumps of entine in my mouth...

I don't know really for sure but if you've got no pain or discomfort, then why?

I've got four wisdom teeth and never bothered doing anything about them.

I would wait until you have problems before doing anything... Age and speed of healing aren't that connected, it's more about your general state of health... I would have though

I had all mine taken out when I was 17 -- they were straight but wouldn't have fit in my jaw when they appeared someday. hubby has a plastic retainer thing that he's supposed to wear every night for the rest of his life so that his wisdom teeth don't mess up his other teeth. His dentist said leave them in so that one day when you need fake teeth you can anchor them to the wisdom teeth, which I think is pretty stupid. Appears to be a matter of taste and trends in dentistry. Maybe Carm will weigh in.

When you say English Dentists, do you mean British or English speaking?

Wisdom teeth- lot of debate there- I personally like when they are removed- in most cases the patient cannot clean them properly, and they lead to periodontal problems on the tooth right before it (the second molar). In most cases, its better if they are below the gumline to have them removed- as they tend to try to break thru the gumline and put pressure on the second molars- depending on how they lay. If they are deep in the bone- then leave them, if they are causing no problems or if they will not lead to problems. Often they are laying very close to the second molar- making cleaning for you and us very difficult or they will have a periodontal pocket on the back side.
Not very often does the patient have enough room in their mouth for the wisdom teeth.
Often they have broken thru the gum somewhat, and then you have the problem that you cannot clean them, teeth have a normal eruption force, so the tooth tries to break into the mouth, if there is not the proper amount of room, the go up and down, collecting bacteria along the way- leading to either cavites or periodontal disease.
Without the xray I cannot say if you doc is trying to collect more money off you or not.

I will try to explain better when I am sober!

i had mine out at 15, best thing I did!

Hi Carm, thanks for your drunken efforts. The dentists who said ignore them were mainly English NHS dentists that I went to until I was about 15. This was 20 years ago (jesus!) and these 20 years have been something of a dental drought. Now I'm older and wiser I go a bit more often, and perhaps have some repair work to catch up on...

I've had two out when they started to grow out sideways.

The first time my normal dentist referred to me a VERY posh surgeon with a swish practice by Marienplatz - and he was a fucking butcher and his nursing staff evil cold hearted witches. It took a LONG time, was very unpleasant and I was off work for a week.

The second time my dentitst said I needed one out I said "PLEASE do not send me to the butcher at Marienplatz". He said he'd stopped referring patients there after a series of complaints so sent me to someone else:

Modest practice in a down at heel block at the wrong end of the Hauptbahnhof. Took 15 minutes, no pain and I was back at work the next day.

has anyone tried getiing braces in germany? as i want to get them

Had mine taken out 2 weeks ago by Dr. Winkelsberg. He was great! No pain and back to work same day...no pain from day of extraction till now. He was honest, told me my bottom 2 wisdom teeth need not be taken out, just the top two.

www.winkelsberg.de, located in Tal 48 Isartor

I was 14 when I was sent to surgery to have all my wisdom teeth removed before my braces were slapped on. (On top of the four eye teeth they pulled) anyway, that experience sucked - especially as I woke up in the middle of the surgery, but I survived.
Until a couple years ago when a German dentist noticed in an xray that I still have part of a wisdom tooth in my lower jaw (probably broke off when I woke up) and wanted to refer me to surgery for it. I never did. It is not infected or impacted, it is not growing or moving and seems to be pretty low down. His argument was that it might be a problem someday, but he didn't push it.

i did. but orthodontist was near stuttgart. cost me, at the time, around 2000 EUR. i opted for ceramic ones cause who wants to be 30 and called brace face? had a cross-bite. wore them for 9 months.

I have no expertise in this area, and can only comment on my personal experience, so...

Mine have been coming through for years now. One of them was more advanced than the others and would flare up every once in a while. One time it got pretty bad and my gum got infected and really swelled up. So I went to the dentist, and he said this would keep happening until I had it out.

I thought this was going to be a big deal, because I have heard other peoples horror stories. He said he would take it out right then, so I said go ahead. It was out in 30 seconds, I held this bit of cloth in my mouth for about 2 hours afterwards and ate dinner normally that night. The reason I think it was so easy was because it was a long way out. I have friends who had to go to hospital under general anesthetic to have them out with long recovery periods. In these cases it was because their teeth were still under the gums.

So it seem to me that getting them out is a lot easier when they have already pushed through the gums

I had all 4 of my wisdom teeth until about 5 years ago. The two on top were through the gum and I had them pulled - I was under for that little op - no swelling, no pain, back at work the next day.

I was always told that if they aren't bothering me, then don't yank them.

The bottom two are in the bone, have crowded the bottom teeth a little but do not bother me at all. If I had to have them removed, it would be more invasive surgery than the first time around.

If you are young (under 25) then I can see the need to maybe get them out to stop the teeth from getting crowded but, it sounds like you are in your mid 30's and if they were going to crowd your teeth, they would have done so by now.

By the way, great oral surgeon, Dr. Stefan Roth, on Leopoldstrasse in Schwabing (right about the Starbucks!). He's a fantastic English speaker, very gentle and great looking to boot!

i was with dr. winkelsberg. he's not ugly, per se, but maybe i'll give dr. roth a try

i still have three. one was taken out as it was growing funny.
my dentist says for the other ones no need as they are healthy and happy.
i think it depends on each person individually. there is no general rule.

Wow, I have to get my wisdom teeth out too... I was having a bit of a panick attack, is it really necessary and all that... I made an appointment with Winkelsberg but he was all like, oh well what do you think? and he was saying that he would like to take 2, any 2 really and then maybe take the other 2... AAAAAAAHHHH scary scary, indecision from dentists, especically since I know that I have to have 1 taken out since it is compacting and very ouchy. I almost called and cancelled (the appointment is now 10 days away), but I decided to check the website and see if anyone could offer some reassuring words about this dentist, maybe it is just the cavalier attitude, but I have had some really bad dentists before so yea... anyways, wisdom teeth, arg!

they should be done in pairs! Once you get one out, there is no use for the opposing Widsom tooth, so do both. Its much easier that way too.
I understand people have fears and bad experiences, but todays modern dentistry can be pain free! If you are really nervous still ask for a Valium.

Unless there is a pressing medical need (impaction, pain, improper directional growth) to remove them, don't. One major problem with removing them unnecessarily is a separation of the remaining teeth to fill the gap, something that happens whenever a tooth remains missing for a long period of time and the reason that bridges are so important when a tooth has been extracted or lost.

Would you blindly accept a doctor telling you to check into the hospital for major invasive preventative surgery to remove your appendix because you might develop appendicitis in the future?

woof.

Um yea, so you can see why I'm a bit nervous about somebody who is giving me mixed info, double arg.

sorry, you are wrong there! very rarely in an Adult life will the teeth shift backwards to fill in the gap caused by a wisdom tooth. If it did most people I know would still be wearing braces then.

If you loose a first molar and its not replaced, some tipping may occur, and that should be filled with an implant or a bridge, but Wisdom teeth are not need to be replaced.

One of my inlaws is a (German) dentist and he says on no account let a regular dentist take out tricky wisdom teeth (just the straightforward cases), definitely go to a proper Kieferchirurg (oral surgeon). There's a good one near Hauptbahnhof as mentioned by Monkstown in an earlier post (if it's the same one I am thinking of). I used to go to Winkelsberg too but was not happy with him.

I fully agree with this. A regular dentist tried to take out one of my wisdom teeth, but after over an hour and a half of drilling and yanking and pulling gave up and let me walk down the road to the Kieferorthopäden. Quite easily the most traumatic experience of my life.

If they are straight forward a 'regular' GP can do it, heck even simple sugical extractions are easy. A 'unnamed' TT came to my office and got one of his wisdom teeth out- its was a semi surgical extraction, paritally out, needed 3 stitches, and he (the TT) did fine! (The assistant doctor did them)
If they are in the bone then its best to see an Oral surgeon, or a Doc that has lots of experience... where I work, we only refer wisdom teeth if we are too busy, but we do all kinds of sugery so its not a big deal to us.

Screw that - go to an oral surgeon and asked to be put under. I had an appt for 10:30, was in the chair at 10:35, under by 10:37 and walked out of the office at 11 am. Thank God I was under. I really think it must be easier for the surgeon too because you are relaxed (so to speak) when you are under. I felt nothing, a had no pain and was back at work the next day. However, the sides of my mouth were so sore so it was obvious that he did a lot of pulling and stretching to get to the back of my mouth and get those teeth out. Aferwards, everyone started telling me their horror stories (one dentist had his knee on my bosses' chest for leverage!) and I was so happy I went under (also, it was a very cool experience).

Alot of office (like mine for example) have the ability to offer that right in the office. We have an Anesthetist on staff, and 3 more at our disposal, as do alot of larger offices. You just need to ask.

Ok this should probably be in the vent section but since this rant is about wisdom teeth...
I just got back from the butcher dentist after six hours of some stupid unprofessional fucking bitch drilling into my gums, trying to yank a supposedly 'straight forward' wisdom tooth out and having no success. Six fucking hours, fully conscious, in pain, listening to the dentist argue with her assistant, generally talking to me like a piece of shit, then taking out her anger on me because she couldn't get the damn tooth out and because she had to cancel the rest of her appointments for the day. When it became apparent that she was seriously out of her depth (I got a tad scared only 45 minutes to an hour into the ordeal when she started arguing with her assistant - it was like watching dentistry carried out by the cast of the Muppet Show and Laurence Olivier's character in 'Marathon Man') I insisted that she clean me up and stick me in a taxi bound for the nearest surgeon so they could patch up her butchery. She refused. She refused again about 1.5 hours later and then an hour after that. When I asked her if I could call my boyfriend (about four or five times) she also refused, continuously answering 'when you need to go home we will call a taxi for you'.
Only after I completely exploded at her did she let me call my boyfriend to come and see what was going on (which admittedly must have been a funny site as by this stage she had given me 8 needles to numb the left side of my face which was swollen up to the size of a football in addition to the fact that I was dribbling blood everywhere and couldn't really talk properly). When he got there the dentist temporarily stopped yelling at me and started yelling at him 'Don't you DARE come into this room - YOU MUST WAIT OUTSIDE'. (He argued with her for a bit then ignored her and sat and the end of the dentist's chair anyway. He held my hands throughout the rest of the episode which he probably regrets now as the poor bugger is sporting my finger nail imprints in his hands as a temporary souvenir). Two more needles later, more drilling and abuse later, she finally got the fucken thing out of there and started to stich me up.

Last week when she told me that this tooth (and two others) had to come out, I asked her to refer me to a proper surgeon to take care of it, to which she answered 'Why? I've been taking out wisdom teeth for thirty years, I think I know what I am doing'. She then showed me the x-ray and explained that it would be a simple painless procedure that would not take longer than an hour. Since I had had the wisdom tooth on the upper right side taken out with a local anasthetic by a dentist whilst on holiday in Italy a couple of years ago and that had not been traumatic at all I thought 'OK, why the hell not? She seems to know what she's talking about'. Famous last words.

The moral of the story is: If you have to get wisdom teeth out insist on a proper surgeon and VOLL NARKOSE ... either that or visit the dentist in Florence!

ouch. this was in essen, right?

Yep, in Essen.

Gosh, how dreadful. I hope you're feeling better.
If I had to have the two remaining ones taken out I'd definitely head to Florence.
Bon courage!

@Nixe, something very similar happened to me but the dentist thankfully realised he was out of his depth after 2 hours of drilling and pulling and gave me a map of how to get to a specialist clinic. Wonderful, the injections were wearing off, I've never felt such relief as when the clinic reinjected me... anyway, all in all 4 and a half hours for 1 tooth. The other 3 vollnarcose at the clinic gave me a fat face but no problems. Moral - don't trust dentists here... I'm still scared to go back to one!

I got my wisdom teeth out years ago, as my mouth is too small for all teeth (the orthodontist said, for a perfect result I would also have to have another 4 molars removed, but I decided against that). I also had braces when I was a teenager.
My teeth are not perfectly aligned, but good enough for me.

every situation is different. Some people need the General Ane to get all 4 out, some not. It really depends in the situation. If she said it was a straight forward extraction, and she had to drill, then it wasn't a straight forward extraction, that is then a surgical extraction.
You should take Ibprophen for the swelling and did she give you cold packs? Cold packs right away help take the swelling and the bruising away.

Nixe- expect alot of swelling and bruising if it was such an ordeal. I do feel sorry for you, she obviously was in over her head. I guess the patients at my office are lucky, that my bosses are such good surgeons. Most wisdom teeth (all 4 at once) are done in under 30min. If they feel the need to do any sort of drilling to free it from the bone, we refer to a specialist. Ice packs or a bag of frozen peas (because they can be refrozen and form nicely to the face) are very important.

I had two taken out at a time, first the right, then the left (or vice versa, I forgot). It was s surgical extraction as they were all still in the jaw bone, and I only had local anesthesia, and I was fine. I had them extracted by an oral surgeon but I can't remember who... some place in Munich anyway.
I had the procedure done on a Thursday and was back to school on Monday.

Oh by the way, if anyone wants me to, I could ask my parents who the surgeon was, maybe they will remember. It was a female doctor anyway. I remember that much... I also think it was somewhere by Hauptbahnhof, but I might be totally off with that.

It is a fact that the whole medical industry in Germany has a financial incentive to provide health services that aren't necessary for which the average man or woman in the street pays the bill.

... which is just more evidence that in every public-private partnership, its the private side tries to rip the other off.
I other words: just keep big business out of public affairs or things turn ugly pretty fast. I have my suspicions why that simple truth isnt widely accepted among the decisionmakers on the public side ...

It seems to be more difficult to find a dentist who you trust (which might be different
from whether he/she is "good" or not) than a doctor here...

My wife relates that she had several teeth wrecked by a female dentist and then was
several years at one who seemed competent but had the chacteristics of a sadist.
I was with him for several years - we left since (a) we had moved several kms away
and ( he just could not manage children. he used to marvel how my UK amalgam fillings
held up (guess he saw his salvation in replacing them).

Now we are with a local guy (following recommendation) & he seems rather quiet
and calming. My teenage son needed some teeth removing - the first time
he was refered to the jaw doctor and had full anasthetic - second time a few
years later they all refused to give full K/O - but at our expense (30 Euro) he was offered
a drip which he says worked fine and he knew nothing...

I have regular inspection next week - just have to lower dentist's expectations that he can
replace my old fillings. I'm private you see...

and hence why every "Gesundheitsreform" is not - its just a refinancing

I have had three wisdom teeth removed, one by a dental surgeon and two by my dentist. Those two needed stitches because the holes were so huge. They were removed solely because they had started moving and twisting in their sockets and really, really hurt. My dentist refuses to contemplate touching the fourth as it is impacted sideways in my jaw and lying directly on a nerve. But it's not moved for years.
But I am very lucky with my dentist anyway, she is so competent and quick that I thank St. Apollonia on my knees for the day I picked my dentist's number out of the phone book.

That sounds like a horrible story. One nice part about my dentist saying I should get mine done is she immediately recommended a specialist surgeon who could best provide the service. Although it is a straight forward operation, by my dentist's estimation, she still doesn't want to do it herself which makes me feel more confident it does need doing and will be done properly, but still no more enthusiastic about the process.

I asked my mom who my oral surgeon was and it was:

Dr.Dr. med. Brigitte Meissner
Dachauer Str. 4
80335 München
089/594572

As a follow-up to yesterday's adventure (and at my boyfriend's insistence) I went to a different dentist this morning to get him to check and see if what was done yesterday was correct. At first glance at my face this new dentist was completely shocked and kept saying 'Mein Gott' (that has been the reaction from people I have passed on the street since yesterday too - usually accompanied by gasping. I feel a bit like the Elephant man!) and then he took a look to see if my jaw was broken because the amount of swelling was suggestive of this. Thankfully it wasn't broken - which I had kinda guessed already as I think the pain would have been even worse. Whilst he said that he wasn't present during yesterday's proceedings and therefore doesn't know exactly what kind of complication had caused the six hour marathon, he did recommend that I write a letter to the Zahnärztekammer (and send photos). He also said that, in his opinion, the dentist from yesterday really should not have denied my requests to go elsewhere especially when it became apparent that she could not handle the situation.

Thankfully the swelling and pain is subsiding and I have some time off work at the moment now (am starting a new job in a couple of weeks). I am just glad the whole experience is over as it really was traumatic. It goes without saying that I will never return to that crazy bitch (from yesterday) again.

Now for today's challenge/adventure: to try and go for a walk in the sun without scaring the local kids ... and eat something that isn't in puree form (am hungry for a steak).

Poor dear! Sear a chicken breast filet in olive oil, add water and onions, let it simmer until the meat is thoroughly cooked, pour off the water and send the chicken and onions through the blender. At least it gives you the taste of meat.

Thanks, I will give that a try! Thanks also to the other people who offered expressions of sympathy or advice.

you should make an official complaint about this lady dentist.
i hope you feel better soon.

friggin hell nixe, sue the doc and hope you get better soon!!

They will probably close ranks and you can save the effort. If your second dentist was a GUTACHTER and
he made the report you might have a chance...

I don't really expect that my letter to the Zahnärztekammer will achieve much but you never know. If my complaint turns out to be one of many regarding this particular dentist, they may be forced into action against her - even if it is just issuing her a warning or making her aware that people have complained about her. Maybe in the future she will be a little more careful?

As I mentioned before, I certainly won't be giving her a second chance but I seriously hope for the sake of her other patients (and people who have the misfortune to land in her practice in the future) that she thinks twice about taking on tasks she is not capable of carrying out, and that she develops a little more sympathy for her patients. A bit of professionalism wouldn't go astray either - arguing with your assistant and repeatedly losing your temper in front of your patient is just not on as far as I am concerned.

I must say that when I first came to DE and saw each dentist in individual surgery whereas my UK dentist was a
group of several where they could ask each other for opinion I was a bit worried.

The Zahnärtzkammers are starting to lean towards the patients versions, as more patients are starting to complain and expect some sort of reaction. My bosses are often in court about things like that (not from us, but as Gutachers and Expert witnesses). I would also not pay for the appointment, and refuse to pay for it as you had to go elsewhere to get it checked out.

I had two wisdom teeth taken out last week (the last ones...had the other two taken out 6 years ago, first one was a traumatic experience, second one was a piece of cake). Have a different dentist now and he referred me to a Kieferchirurg because he wasnt confident the "operation" would be a straightforward one (something to do with roots and nerves), and a Kieferchirurg would have the experience and the means to handle the situation properly in case there were any complications.

The procedure didnt take very long, but it involved some drilling (quite a big drill that was too...and bloody loud) and more x-rays to make sure everything was taken out. I was out of work for 3 days and looked like Don Corleone on a bad day (still, not as bad as nixe seems to be...I feel for you)... I think I had 5 or 6 stitches, and the it bled for 7 or 8 hours...not nice...

I went back to the doc twice, first to check if it was healing properly, then a week later to get the stitches out. It was a bit painful, and every now and then it bothers me a bit. But nothing bad.

Considering the very unpleasant circumstance, I think the doc was pretty good. Strong Bavarian accent though, and dont know whether he speaks any English.

Dr. med. Werner Zeintl
Lindwurmstraße, 5
089 2606262