Tougher German tests for school admissions

Bavaria did badly in PISA studies when it came to children with migrant backgrounds - as well as those from working class families. Now the Bavarian government is planning to tighten the rules to exclude more children whose first language isn't German from public education. Abendzeitung headline today.

Surely, if everyone is paying tax into the system - and so called foreigners do pay tax - then they can't be denied education.

Letting children whose first language isn't German stay at kindergarten is hardly going to help them get the best out of the education system is it. I'd say they should be in schools and getting extra herlp with language skills if they need it.

Seeing as EU Citizens can't legally be forced to learn German - though it makes a huge positive difference to your live in Germany - I wonder if someone is going to sue at Strasbourg?

How can they exclude anyone from public education, don't all children have to go to school? Or do they just hold back all the children who can't pass the test in Kindergarten?

Topic crosslink: UN condemns German school system - poor and immigrant children excluded

I saw the headline this morning, and actually, after watching the teacher of my oldest sons class struggle with children who couldn't (including one who wouldn't) speak German, I support the idea that children should have some mastery of the language of instruction.

There is no denial of education, on the contrary, ever tried to take a kid out of school here?? Besides - I'm paying quite a bit of tax into the system, and cannot vote, so that arguement didn't make sense to me is all.

The podiumsdiskussion last thursday at the local school was very enlightening of the attitudes held by certain political parties and directors of schools here - shame I didn't see any TTers there. I will publish my notes of the evening, if anyone wants to read them.

School kindergarden can be very beneficial - however, this is currently mainly taken advantage of by Germans. I hope that more "foreigners" see the advantage this can offer, if need be.

That last point is an interesting one though. Uhm, the last point in Monkstown post I mean (geez, you guys are fast!)

ddb put your notes up!

In my school, we had varying degrees of ESL (English as a Second Language). Some kids had to spend their entire day in the ESL program, some only had to do an extra hour instead of gym class depending on the level of their English.

Of course you have to have the financial resources and the teachers to implement such a program.

I dont see much evidence of a further fascist uprising swelling in the bier halls of Munich or a racist policy in the above quote from the inspectors.

Same problem the world over, having a "superior" social background is perceived as having better chance of success whilst in education. The inspector also pointed out the the selection age of 10 was too early.

They back them up, as happened to my co-worker's kids Fluent English/Swedish/basic conversational German. This is a cunning way of making auslanders fail the 10 plus exam and keeping the gymnasium's for locals. Instead of starting very late at 7 and having 3 years to become educated the "hold back" reduces the time to 2 or less years. Not that the kids are in school for a long time a day, mornings only I understand.

Even the local education authorities say how bad the education is here, in my co-worker LEA's want to move to the Swedish flexible system rather teach as wrote, but there is huge resistance against this. The local education authority said to them not go to the local schools. Nearest best one was 40m drive. Montessori was advised but this was 50m away and expensive.

It stinks as far as I can see and favours those with money who can afford private edu and tutors. Certainly not your average auslander.

My kids are average ausländer, well, except for the fact that I'm on the Elternbeirat - but most German kids' parents aren't on the Elternbeirat either. We can neither afford private education nor tutors.

To go on past grammar school, students have to be proficient in German and Math, and be passing social studies. Actually makes sense to me.

I'm not saying this system is perfect - it is far from it, and far from easy in many ways, but it is not that unfair to expect students to speak the language of instruction.

I agree, but just holding them back will not improve matters it will disadvantage the kids. There needs to be better plan than hold backs to develop the kids.

Schulkindergarden is not "holding back" it is actually designed to help children be more able to deal with school and has been around for some time now.

I will go out and get the paper to read what the plans are for older children...

And when I finish translating the notes from the meeting last week, I'll put those up as well (I have to do the paid translation work first, though) .

DDBug, I was hoping you'd show up!
I almost PMed you to ask if you'd like to start the thread.

am i right in believing that a child's 'right' to go to gymnasium is decided at the age of 10?

pretty much

Hi Monkstown - missed you last thursday, you would have enjoyed listening to a certain Herr Landtagsabgeordneter Eisenreich

Grazzenger - to a degree, yes and no. All children go to the same grade school from grades 1 - 4. In grade 4 the decision is made, by parents, schools, teachers, etc. depending on the "Land" which form of continuing education is most suitable for the child - Gymnasium (academic) Realschule (general "high school") or (the default) Hauptschule.
Currently no one who knows anything about the system here wants their child to go to Hauptschule because the chances of getting a "lehre" or "berufsausbildung" afterwards are so grim.
I have met several people who have gone to the Hauptschule and then gone back and gotten an Abitur - this is what you need to study at a university here, not 6 years of Gymnasium (though the two tend to go together). However, you do not need an abitur to do an ausbildung or continue on to other forms of college (for want of a better word).

PS - some Länder have grades 5 - 13 in one comprehensive school.

One of the biggest problems is that quite a few of the parents of these kids speak no German (or, at best, very very basic) at all so they get little or no exposure to the language apart from at school.

My kids only get their exposure to German at school (or kindergarden) - that's not a handicap. Bilingualism is an advantage. There is no German spoken in this house (though every book or movie is watched in original, where possible - did you know the "Weinende Kamel" was actually in Mongolian ? That was interesting to sit though)

imo, it is best to leave as many channels/opportunities open until as late as possible. the german higher education system seems to take long enough as it is without making children/young adults go back and take the abitur thus delaying their move on to university even further.

from what is being implied in the posts above, foreign children are being discriminated against and forced down the hauptschule route.

i think its important to look at why this has been done.

the big stink has been a hauptschule in neu-köln in berlin with 80% foriegn kids. the teachers had basicly written a letter saying "shut the school we give up." too much violence etc etc. the blame is being firmly laid on the fact that the kids have crap german. which is sad.

it wasnt put on the fact that the german system and snobism (was du hast kein abi??!!! schock horror) asigns you to the dustbin if your not academicly bright, that combined with an enviroment of absolutley hopeless unemployment rates and a political system which ignores them. just to jump on them is too easy, there has also been talk about throwing violent kids out of the country.

why not blame the teachers and or the selection of them, christ i've heard too many teachers here who take the job for the holidays and not for the vocation! why not blame a sytem which doesnt encourage competitive sports at school. for fucks sake rugby is band here in schools, because its too violent. why are too many teachers female? why do they not look for strong male teachers who can be looked at as role models by kids - especialy the males - from single parent or ignoring parent families?

all this does is appeal to the stammtisch mentalitiy of germany (why dont you english go back to england, you can do what you want there. rings clearly in my mind) and creat another brick in the wall already present in the minds of these "gehto-kids".

yep german is necessary. teach it then. but dont use it as a big stick.

I won't deny that there is discrimination - but not against foreigners directly (although foreigner has very negative connotations, I must admit) the discrimination as I see it, perceive it, and understand it from personal experience is 90 % class based, for Germans as much as for foreigners.

Gideon - the neu-köln stink was long overdue - but came about after this decision to enforce german in the schools was made.

At neu-köln its those working class foreigners at fault, at least according to N24. I can only speak of my direct experiences in the school system in Munich.

i'm just intrigued as this will be come relevant to me but not for about 10 years, so who knows what will have happened by then. it's just that it's not the first time i've heard/read about this.

Well I have just stumbled upon this topic now but reckon that it will become relevant to me in less than 5 years. Some of the opinions here are a bit frightening in terms that some people have had bad experiences and obviously strong feelings! Yet I can seem to grasp exactly what the problem is? Is it money or is it the fact that you or your child is a foreigner. If/When we have kids then they would be raised bilingually - English/German. Would they still need to worry about not having an equal chance at school?

no its the other way round, true this debate has been going on for well as long as can speak german. the whole process has been accelertaed by the neu-köln scandel. anyways the time frame is irrelevant. the outcome is not.

MunichNiel - my kids are bilingual and they are doing very well in school. Don't worry about it too much and expose them to both languages as much as you can..

Gideon - yes, this debate about children speaking sufficient German has been going on for awhile. NeuKöln however has more to do with the fact that the hauptschule was left on its own, so to speak, without enough teachers (as in the hauptschulen in Munich!) without any support dealing with dangers in the class room (students with knifes, class disruptions) until the teachers finally threatened to walk out.

I do believe that school reform here is long overdue, and more needs to be invested, new teachers, new attitudes etc. However, I do not believe that my children are at a disadvantage in the school because we do not speak any German at home.

which is firmly being blamed and rabble roused on their inability or refusal to speak german. hence the whole knee jerk reaction.


thats because your a parent who cares. or i presume so having bantered with you so many times here on tt about children related issue. alot of the "ausländer" kids have parents who dont understand, nor care, or are just plain knackered form doing there work to care.

A lot of the "working class" German kids are in the same situation - which is why I see this as more of a class issue than a foreigner issue. (That said, I've seen "non-working class" children in the school suffer from the same issue, though not as much).

Actually, I see it as an issue for society to deal with, and accept responsibility for. The attitude here is very much "it's up to the parents" to make sure the child succeeds. If the parents cannot or will not help their children in this system, it's the system that ends up paying in the long term... But most people loose sight of that - until crime, unemployment, taxes for welfare etc. affect them directly.

Darn it - where were you guys last thursday when this was all being discussed with the responsible parties ??

excellent post, DDBug

I see it partly as a way for the governments to wriggle out of their responsibilities to German working class children and their parents.

ie "The reason your school is so bad is not becasue we don't invest enough in or care enough about a genuinely good ecuation system for all but the fact that there are too many "Kanacken" in the classroom."

German Citizen working class parents can vote in the state lections in a couple of years time, "Kanaken" can't.

at home doing the homework with their kids ;-)

seriously although i love the debate and the subject matter, why turn up. i'd only get angry. i dont suffer idiots.

There were only two who made asses of themselves - it was quite interesting to see where certain people stood. And said alot about the system itself that many didn't show up. I think that reinforced the idea to certain people that they can do whateever they want - no one will complain. And that made me mad.

I was having a few beers last Thursday having already spent 4 evenings that week doing voluntary work.

we did complain to the teacher about the joined up handwritting they have to learn. its completely stupid and doesnt evolve from the non-joined up letters learnt only a year before (crickey i was trained in typography and caligraphy and illustration and i had difficulties doing it). shoulders were shrugged, and air exhaled. and this is from a good commited teacher. its not the complaining. i think theres anough of that. its the changing or adapting or basicly looking for improvemnet which doesnt take place.

they don't seem to move with the times at all
Apparently at Gymnasium latin is still a compulsory subject. A friend of mine (her daughter is around 10ish) asked why the hell they didn't get rid of latin and teach Spanish or Chinese instead, and was told that they couldn't do that, because all the latin teachers would be out of a job
bizarre was of looking at things, really

One parent complaining to the teacher about the form of cursive the children are taught is not the same as a group of parents organizing a collective complaint about the structure of the classes.

I guess we pick our battles. My kids will have to deal with a lot of curriculum issues that will be problematic (I can't stand my son's cursive handwriting, and am dreading his first real English teacher after having heard many nightmare stories from other Americans). We can't homeschool here. But I will lend my support to collective actions.

And as I told the members of each political party last thursday, I cannot vote (here), but I can write and report and hopefully influence others to take action as well.

Topsy - latin is not a requirement at every gymnasium. The advantage of gymnasium is that there are different types - languages, sciences, music, etc. I will brush up on those when we get to that bridge.

gave up on battles after they told me "but you come from an english system, and its different here." which is an improvement from "if you dont like it fuck off back to england" i suppose. we spend my energies trying to fill in the deficits on my sons education, football, rugby, chess and art classes, plus english once in a while but i dont want to get into that with him until he has a firm footing in written german - with their baroque squiggly stuff.

but praise to you for being there.

Regarding Gideon’s comments about teachers in Germany earlier: Bavaria at least is suffering a shortage of teachers: The pay isn’t good. The idea that you get all the school holidays off work is not always true. During term time the hours can be very long. The job has a low status in society and people who are qualified can get much better jobs in private industry. Plus of course if you come from some country village the government can make you work in Munich = very expensive.

So it doesn’t attract the best candidates.

I stood up an told them I come from an American system, and it's different there. (And spend a lot of time compensating as well- I do know what you mean there!)

So what - of course I come from a different system. I also went to 5 schools in 5 years - from small classes to large classes, 1 teacher per class to 3. So at least I have a comparison that they don't have - and can counteract stupid ideas with personal experience (that they don't have having only been in one system here)

Edit - MT is right - there is a serious teacher shortage here (though it's denied). Although they are beamter, it's not attractive for a variety of reasons.

I REALLY enjoy these education theads with all your inputs!

(See I can be nice sometimes )

When aren't you nice (did I miss something?)

I hated latin at school and would have agreed with it's removal from the curriculum until I saw how it is taught in German schools. In Germany is taught less as a pure language (translate this, that, and the other), and more as a basis for language and language evolution, and is therefore an excellent grounding for the teaching of additional (modern and ancient) languages.

Where/how are kids of asylum seekers educated, does anyone know?

Interesting question. I knew a girl who came her with her parents under Asylum (when Czechoslovakia was still Czechoslovakia and eastern Europeans were granted asylum) and she mentioned living in the containers until they got asylum. I know she went through the German system, I don't know what the deal was when they were in the asyl home though.

Very good question.

Kids of asylum seekers have to go to public schools like everyone else. depending on which age they have when they enter the system, they have more or less good chances to catch up. some cities like Munich have special schools/classes for foreigners who enter the system late (with emphasis on learning german).

I think the solution to the school problems here are rather obvious.
First, of course, more money. We pay a hell of a lot of tax here. It's time more of that went to the schools.

Then, unite the schools. All kids have the right to be offered the same education. Let the non-academic kids quit after 9th grade (Hauptschulabschluss) if they want. Differences in kids' academic speed can be evened out with remedial and honors classes.

And give them all-day school for christs sake. There would be plenty of time for ESL classes then, so that takes care of that.

I just don't get why they don't have a German as a second language program, implimented in the schools. How can having a child remain in Kindergarten help without some form of structured language training. It is all very frustrating.

Kat, the CSU who run the state don't want all day schools becasue of what they see of the role of women and the family.

Has anyone actually said that in the last 10 years? The modern family just can't afford for the woman to stay home anymore.

Kat - kids can leave school here after 9 years (I think that's right) of schooling. Isn't that the same as 9th grade (sorry, I don't know the US system/terminology)?

Oh, and I think Eddie and chums still live in their idealised 1950s, when women knew their place, and that place was the kitchen.