Tougher German tests for school admissions

It's more than the (perception of the) housewife society that is being threatened here - the educational system (amongst other aspects of society here) refuses to deal with the fact that Germany has become a "zuwandererland" - much like the great american melting pot (takes tongue out of cheek). And will continue to be so - and have to be so - as long as the local population doesn't want to reproduce (quickly closing that can of worms again).

Indirectly, last Thursday, two important gentlemen stated that very idea. Anyone who knows me can imagine my reaction.

Wow.

"Kinder Küche Kirche" is what a not insignificant number of men in positons of power in Bavaria think is a woman's role is in society.

Correct - but as they don't start until they are 6 or 7 years old they leave at 15/16. Certain irony here is that if a kid comes in from another schooling system where they start earlier (e.g UK where 4/5 is the norm), then so long as they can prove 9 years of schooling they can leave the German system. The daughter of a friend of mine left at 13½ as a result

to be honest thats a load of bollocks. its cheaper to have the women at home and not dish out for schools having the facilities for a whole day. canteens? adequate sports facilities? its the same with the sports vereins. they do the work we would have got at school sports. its all free and the state shuts its eyes both SPD AND CSU because it'll cost them a fortune to corrct this.


you can but forget expensive holidays, second car, and other luxuries. but thats the sacrifice you make eh! it's good for the kids if the mother or father can stay at home, well its been good for our family. that phase is nearly gone.


direkt attack as provocation to cause you to be angry maybe. pushing dem buttons to shut you up. but seriously i've met men and women who believe in the "womens place is the home" scenario. why are they allways rich buggers?

I'm not a huge fan of the SPD Gideon but they do propose in Bavaria to have all day schools.
The money is there but it gets swallowed up in other stuff.

oh for fucks sake mate. the spd in bayern can promise all they want because they will never be held responsible for it. and they know it. they'll never get in. and like all opposition they make twaty statements about anything. i'd love tp see the cost of renovating every school in bayen with a canteen and paying the staff, plus compulsory purchase of land for sports fields and stuff. the spd have just had their turn at federal government and did jack shit.

You two would have been so much fun to have around last Thrusday I'll finish translating what I could take notes on and you can read for yourselfs what happened.

monkstown? me? he's weird? lives in the GV and is a trotsky.

Mate, not that I'm saying we're about to get a workers republic in Bayern but the CSUs 50%+ is MAYBE looking shaky...

May I join in this thread to add my 2 cents worth?

DDBug, you and I have something in common - I was also in the Elternbeirat last year and have been closely involved in school activities the other years. My 10-year old daughter now attending Gymnasium. I could write a book about school life in MUC ;-) I've had to deal with so many issues, and my daughter's only in 5th grade!

The whole system is designed to be as inconvenient as possible for working moms :-( From the endless trips to buy school supplies because you're never given a master list, to "hitze-frei" days where your kid comes home unannounced 45 minutes early, based on some snap decision of the school head.

You're right - it's a very class-based system. Theoretically, you can switch school types, but in reality it's very difficult. So not only are you channeled into one type of school, but (based on my experience with gymnasiums) you're also somewhat "locked" into a course of study (Neusprachliches, Technisches or Wirtschafts/sozialwissenschaft) based on whether you have chosen French or Latin as your second foreign language.

The system places immense pressure on the kids very early - 4th grade. They need excellent grades and some idea of what career path they prefer - all at a very young age! I saw some kids put under great pressure by their parents to make the cut-off for gymnasium. I saw parents lobby the teacher to give the "right" recommendation, which is actually rather binding! (You can contest it by having your kid do the
"probeunterricht", but the test is tough & is designed so that most fail.

The fact that private tutoring is booming (often by teackers earning a bit on the side) should be a red flag that something is wrong! At around 20 Euro an hour, it's also unaffordable for many.

All day schools would help, but it would require a major investment in the necessary infrastructure (i.e. cafeterias, etc.) Most of the gymnasiums I know offer catered lunches in empty classrooms. This is an interesting contrast to my niece's school in the US, which has a lovely cafeteria, but only micrwaves prepacked stuff ;-)

Anyway, this is an interesting thread. It's good to see so many people interested!

Greetings you all,

Yes-to all you new people in town or those on their way here or those who have found themselves still here years later and now have school aged kids. The German school system is a slanted, dated, 3 tiered caste-like system -like ant farm (to put it nicely) and yes-after the 4th grade, but often decided in 3rd (because they just know these things- for we are teacher!). It is both Flexible and PISA challenged – both a modern and prehistoric schizophrenic school system that is WAY over due for a major overhaul-that often Americans and I believe many British parents have major issues with at some point. Sorry cannot guesstimate how it is for Indians and other English speaking folks.

Will your child survive? Yes, will they be educated…? Yes…(even at all levels). Will they learn to wait their turn in line or learn to be fair and open doors for elders…? most likely not, but if you don’t value that or have been successful to teach this at home-you’ll be fine, but hey- life’s tough anyway, get use to it-besides you’re going to have to learn to use your elbow’s soon enough anyway ….
(Google Gayle Tufts-she explains it much better)

First, let me list these web sites,
www.zkm-muenchen.de
www-kikus-muenchen.de,

It is the “Zentrum fuer kindlich Mehrsprachigkeit e.V., zu Hause in mehrenen Sprachen� Sonnenstrasse 20, 6st. 80331 Muenchen. 089-45 22 95 60…

I listened to their Vortrag at a Lions Club meetings recently… I was truly impressed with what they said and offered. Having experienced Kindergarten - grade school & now 6th grade, here myself as an American since 2000, I was and am convinced that KIKUS is in the right direction. After, with a sigh I said “Gee, I sure wish you were around in 2000 when my daughter was in Kindergarten.� And was shocked to hear that they were. Later I drove one of the ladies to the U-Bahn and asked her (& kind of scolder her) for why they don’t get out to the schools, Kindergarten’s and Horts and spread the word…she answered that -they do- all the time… but they are just not that well received by the Pedagogues (sp) and Rektors in present power. “Intergration, Chancengleichheit… Mehrsprachigkeit… pah? Uns? Was? Wer? Wie? If the parents would just teach and speak German to their kids –all would be in Ordnung…?� ah…Hello….? She said it - not me, folks. But I have actually heard those same words often enough myself as I struggled with basic German-asking teachers & principal along the way for help and advice. I wished my daughters teachers or principal would have provided me with such information…or even to have pointed me towards the local Schulamt (GoethesPlatz?) back then- we were and still are in Kreis-Muenchen, so at the Schul Amt, I heard-“well your not exactly with-in city limits, but your daughter can get on a list and maybe…..� it would have still spared so much emotional trauma, money, tears -for both myself and now 12 year old daughter. Oh you bet –they were real quick to point fingers at me and tell me to stop speaking English to her and how “Sie muessen was Unternehmen Frau Auslaender… Sie!!!� meaning me. Usually in a scowl of accusation, especially when I naively asked about their Deutsch-as-a-Second Language program – that surely every school in Germany offers…? Oder...? Of course when I asked “please help me - what and how and where�, that superior know-it-all attitude went mute and often with a shrug…Theme wechsel. By mid grade 3, It was nicely explained to that my daughter is Hauptschul material anyway… and shouldn’t bother with having her repeat the grade-besides her German is so much better than the other “Auslaender� kids…it’s just those Leistungsfehler…I was even consoled nicely (but thenot officially) with ‘Well gee, what do you want? What can you expect- your an Auslaender and don’t speak fluent German, you’re an Alleinziehender mutter (therefore a women)-but credit was give for me being so widowed so young, (yada yada), and oh yeah- You work fulltime- (ah-ha!). Besides your daughter is (just) a girl…by the way, she is so polite and plays well with all the kids and raises her hand for questions…but what do you want or expect? She can get a Lehre or something and catch-up later….Just accept it. It wasn’t that frank-and it took awhile for most of that to sink in but I eventually understood what was meant… Along the way I have met some great educators that were real Mensches with open worldly minds that seemed to enjoy their profession and kids. Some have actually lauded me for keeping English up with her so well…for she now speaks dialect free English and German…She doesn’t ‘zis or zat’ nothing. But also have met some real useless, heartless, unreasonable elitist Beamter DUDS. I guess they are everywhere else in the world too. But she is in Hauptschul…and yes folks-there is a huge stigma attached with that-but she has made into the M-Zug, which is basically a Realschul study/degree plan but offered only in some Hauptshul…Heh? Eh? Was, Wer, Wie bitte? What false film have we landed in to this time...Toto?
Another topic-another day-another long discussion.

Last summer, I actually packed up-gave my schtuff away-Kuendig my overpriced schimmel Wohnung to move back to US. Basically due to the dead end, pigeonholing (not a word), discriminating damned school SYSTEM that is accepted and in place here in Bavaria. For once labeled and assigned to your destiny-it is EXTREMELY difficult to get out of that fach/slot- (they do love those labels-don’t they?). Of course this is after years of applying & being strung along and then reapplying and rejected to the Isar/Huberschulen – with a “try again in 6 months� staempl, then visiting the Montessori, Rudolf Steiner, BIS and MIS schools with carefully consideration of cashing in her college funds to pay for these, even fled to Berlin for a week to check out the John F. Kennedy school….(but if must Berlin-why not just US). When I suddenly realized; What, Why and …..Where to? There 50 of them thar States. Besides daughter-finally broke down into tears and sobs of revolt just short of departing for last summer’s “final� trip with the KreisJugendReferat (KJR)(check it out folks) on a 10 day Hausboot tour of the Canal di Midi…when I suddenly realized…there are no organized Canal di Midi-Kreisjugendreferat Youth tours in Bum-farck Texas…or even public city busses she can take into town by herself or with her ‘kumpels’ to visit Titus and Goodstuff Skateshops, or take a bus to the Riem Arcaden Mall and go to go the skateboard park there or meet me for lunch or even go to the Mini-Munich at Olympia Park next summer. So let it be said-Munich kind of grows on you. She has also earned the status of Ueber-goalie on the local girls Handball team (E/D league’s-now C) that has totally engulfed us both with activities… and lately she is pleased that I speak English to her in front of her friends… it seems to impress preteens-but did mortified her as a 2nd grader…(so be strong folks with 1st and 2nd grade models). Her friends love my brownies and muffins-that I proudly prepare from a box labeled Duncan Hines…(schhhh-don’t tell) they sell really well at the games too…just like the Sand and Obst-kuchen do…

Now that the non-smoking psychosis wave has hit Munich-that ‘issue’ is slowly working out on it’s own in our favor as well.

Things are going to work out…for us. And will for those other’s in the similar situation. She now talks about going to the University of Texas…and she will-some how. Whether it be ‘just’ Realschul or just recently flunk out of Gymnasium (like 3 or 4 girls from Handball) kids. A solution for them will present itself. For us, Hauptschul is over at 9th grade, 10th for M-Zug, Realschul 10th too, which still allows her time to attend a High School somewhere in Bum-Farck USA. Go to the ‘Prom’, attend Driver’s ed and Letter in Basketball. Or those on the 'Higher' level can crash through Gymnasium and continue to study…and study…and study…and then go to University of Texas or one here or take a Lerhe….anyway… Then perhaps an Umschulung….or 3… who know’s…?

Yes, I still pooh pooh ‘the school system’ when I can…It is horribly unfair-but my audience has shrunk-for her school mates since grade 1 have also been ‘slotted’ and on their way too… Would I be saying these things if my child was attending Gymnasium or Realschul...? You bet I would...maybe not as loud...but just as mortified.

It’s not going to change-so you have to find your best solution within the system… that is hard… because there are just too many entities involved…but educate yourself the best you can in what ever Dorf or Stadt you land… they are all just a bit different and the rules changes often, 6 times in 4 years, per the teacher in last year Uebertritts Infoabend said. It’s your only defense. Guten Glueck!!!

PS. I have been on the Elternbeirat since 2nd grade, very involved with schools. I am American, late husband German, we met playing softball in the Englishfarden, he died of cancer while we were living in San Jose CA, when I told him my plans to return to Munich (I really wanted her to learn German)-he basically pleaded with me to stay put tghere... he tried to tell me how things were here in school...as an outsider I was doomed...but I thought he was delirious...he was so ill, after all he was dying of cancer...but he was right. I'm sorry, honey. The 'should'have's, the could'have's and the would'haves...are the worries of a widow...

Very interesting thread. Cheers all around. Note though, I've been told that the German school system can be very hard on the locals as well as auslanders. Two of my very good friends in the US are German "exiles" basically both didn't do well in the German school system (Bavaria and Schwabia) and instead of settling for the options here decided to give it a go in the US in their 20s. That was a long time ago mind, circa 30 an 15 years respectively but both are now very successful professionals. I asked the younger one if she ever thought of returning to Germany and she said that as she works in higher education it would be impossible...even if the right opportunity came along, she'd still be considered a "nothing" here because of her German schooling. Boggles the mind really.

@Sleepless in Muc -

OMG Sleepless in MUC - you really are sleepless! (And I think we've met several times).

You're right in many ways - as my mom told me when I was pregnant with my first and had only heard nightmare stories of the "system" here - "you can always send him to school in the states".

I think we need a support group, but I am definitely going to check out that verein. Thanks for the tip.

Looking back, I now understand why so many parents thought I was a "Rabenmutter" for playing alphabet games with my daughter while she was in kindergarten. Learning? fun? Impossible! Of course, they all had nightmare memories of their experience in the German school system. Kind of along the lines "that which doesn't kill me makes me stronger"...

Seriously, any thoughts about making this all into an article for the Süddeutsche?

Seriously, yes. But not for the Süddeutsche. Well, not yet at least.

I could easily be wrong but I can't think of any other infrastructure that would immediately need to be implemented - so surely they could just provide packed lunch or something if that enabled all day schooling.

My schools only had cafeterias from High school (gr. 10-12) and up.

In elementary school (gr. 1-6) we either went home for lunch or had lunches packed from home and ate in a classroom designated as the lunchroom and in Junior High (gr. 7-9) we ate in the gymnasium.

I can't really see what additional infrastructure you would need.

Hello all,

I'm sorry for my late contribution, but I have followed this thread with great interest, frustration and anger - and i'd like to add my thoughts to. As someone who is not a mother yet, but has plans to start a family in the next few years, I feel a little worried and angry about some of the things I have read here. My partner is German and I showed him this thread last night. He told me that he doesn't remember the early years of school fondly. He also recalls his parents being told by his teacher (3rd grade) that he was too stupid for Gymnasium. (apparently she actually used the word stupid) Thank goodness his parents chose to ignore the cruelty of his teacher's comments and believe in, and contribute to their son's learning. There was no after-school tutor, but both his mother and father helped with homework right from an early age. Today, my partner works as a process/chemical engineer,...not so stupid after all. As for me,...I know I wasn't the brightest kid in school, but that doesn't mean, and hasn't meant that as an adult I was not suited to accademic study. I'm confused as to how this decision can be made so early for children. But I'm even more confused that both parents and child are to decide on a career direction before they've even hit puberty. I struggle to hear the logic in this.

As for the need for cafeterias in all day school,...my memories of school back in Australia are of all day school with a home made cut lunch. ( I loved my Star Wars lunch box! ) There was a cafateria at my school, but in my family ording lunch from the cafeteria was a treat. Once a fortnight mum would write an order on a brown paper bag (2 party pies with tomatoe sauce, a small chocolate Big-M and a jam donut - and if you'd been really good that week you also got a packet of Samboy salt & vinigar chips Mmmmmm). This was the case right through my education. School ended at 3:30-4pm and each morning you helped your mum, dad, big sister (who ever it was) to make the lunches for the day. No great sum of money needed from the state for a packed lunch. Even in highschool there was a cafeteria, but you had to use your pocket monex to buy things (treats) from it...

Both my partner and I have agreed that when our children are born I am to only speak English with them. Their cousins, aunties and uncles, and great grandparents live on the other side of the world and do not speak German. Family is important no matter where they are. I'm not sure whether the German education system would consider that bad parentling,...but quite frankly my dear,...I don't give a damn.

It's the only way to go! You should check the thread on bringing up bi-lingual kids, it's pretty long but interesting non the less.Bi-Lingual kids

I just returned from a 45 minute meeting with my son's third grade teacher, as a parent and then as the parent representative for the class. It was very interesting (and my reading upside down skills are still pretty good )

She herself brought up the point that all day schools would be great, but the reality is now that there are very few of them.

Anyway, we discussed, among other things, the "selection" process for grade 5 in Bavaria. It is purely grade based (which I knew) based on the child's grades in German, Math and Social Studies (HSU), if the children's grades are not quite good enough for realschule or gymnasium they can apply for a trial period of three days and the school then determines if they think the child will do well. No one who knows the system wants their child to go to hauptschule in Munich - in her opinion the ones who end up there are the ones whos parents don't understand the system, don't "care", or the children who are not as scholastic. Most of the kids I see at the local hauptschule are German. really.

Anyway, the childs choice of realschule or gymnasium (or hauptschule for that matter) does NOT indicate their career path. Germany offers forms of continuing education that the USA for example does not (Lehre, Hochschule that are not Universities, trainings, training schools, etc).

Even now my kids take two "lunches" to school with them, packed or hot lunches are not the problem. Hot lunches were introduced in the states to feed kids who were not getting food at home (great depression time).

As for foreign languages - I mentioned that my son wants to learn italian, if that would be a problem with his german (of course not she said). and I only speak english to my kids and will not let them speak German to me. You will run into a few jokers who don't understand this - you would have the same situation in Australia or the states if you only spoke German to your kids - some people just don't understand - or fear - bilingualism. The German system will not consider that bad parenting. However, (in my experience) parents who do not make the best efforts to help their children in the system (survive the system) are not considered the best parents.

As for my upsidedown reading skills - two of the kids with the best German grades are from families who don't speak German at home. (My son is one) and two of the kids with the worst grades in German don't speak German at home. Just something to think about

What do you think of this? My son came home today and said that there was a new rule in school, that the kids were only allowed to speak German. (My husband and I are both American, we speak only English at home). He told me this rule as we were walking home from the school talking about his day. I think he was worried that it was somehow against the rules to be speaking English to me. (he is in the second grade). I suppose on one side I can intellectually understand that they want only German to be spoken during recess ect. and the reality is that my son would have no one except his little brother to speak English to. Still, it felt strange to me. And we are English speakers, a language that is shown to be valued --they teach it in the school. I just wonder how it would make kid who was Croatian or Albanian feel-- but I guess worrying about how people "feel" is just part of the package of coming where I come from. .. Has this come up for anyone else out there?

Hm, we don't have that - yet. But they are trying to implement a German only policy in schools here in the hope of preventing / avoiding problems such as those in the school in NeuKöln (Berlin).

I honestly would support my kids speaking only German at school - and have reprimanded a couple of kindergarden teachers and hort personnel who tried to speak English to my kids. That's why I put them in a German system. They speak English at home, and with each other and other family members, but German to the other American girl in school. At least in front of me and I wouldn't have a problem with them speaking English to her.

In reality it is a reaction to a different social problem, the effects, however, will be positive for your son.

Forbidding 2 humans the right to speak to each other in a common language is a grave infringement of their human rights imvho.

I'd ask to see a written copy of the school rules and I'd be down to see a lawyer.

I do see the human rights issue, but I also see the language of host country and language of instruction issue...

The rules we had at some of the schools I went to in the states were not that much more humane.

The school's reasoning probably is that kids from a non-German speaking family, who don't speak German at home and are allowed to speak their native language in school and therefore might prefer to socialise with other kids speaking the same language, could have problems a. integrating into society and b. learning German.

It's the same with ex-pats in MUC working for companies where the business language is English. Unless they socialise with Germans and actually speak German they won't be able to learn the language properly.

So forbidding 2 something other-than-human beings speaking to each other in a non-common language would be ok too? or forbidding two people from speaking to each other in a rarer form of language (despite it being their mother tongue) is ok by you...?

My American friend who speaks fluent German and Bayerische, lived here for about 15 years now, speaks only English to his two children whilst at home. In school they speak and do everything in German (except English classes of course). No problems with the school, no problems at the school, no problems with the teachers. Maybe he is lucky but I still find it amazing that his children (aged 8 and 10) can switch between English, German and Bayerische in the blink of an eye, depending on who they are talking to.

If they want to have children speaking German in the classroom during lessons, fine.
What children speak amongst themselves in the playground is a different matter.

You do know that some off the wall freak from the CDU wants to force so called "Ausländer" to speak German even amongst themselves in their own homes? Does that include Toytown?

Oh - who's that MT? I would love to get my bilingual claws into that!

Ok - I am not perfectly bilingual, having been too old when I learned German, but you know what I mean.

It does make sense for practical reasons but regardless as MT said the pricipal of the infringement on human rights is too important to sacrifice for practical reasons.

I think that a big problem here is that one can, as my kids have, master perfect German--but there does not seem to be anyway to "become" German. In the States I have seen two routes when trying to integrate another culture (cultures) into the mainstream. One, is the "English only" way, demanding that all who come to the States speak English and "become American". The other says that America is "multi-cutural" and that it is possible to maintain one's native culture/language and still "be American". When I was teaching in California this was the standard. There was bilingual/bicultural education. The principal of the school I worked at opened the school day by greeting the entire student body with "hello" in at least 20 different languages. The message to the kids was "your langauge and culture is part of who you are, and it is part of being American".

The only qualm I might have with the human rights issue would be because the children are required to go to school when living here. If it were a voluntary issue then I would have no problem at all. Private schools are not a viable option for many foreigners.

However, when you move to a different country you also (should) agree to abide by the regulations of that country.

The German language only is a reaction to integration problems - I am quite amazed that there is an attempt to deal with these problems - implicit recognition of the importance of foreigners in Germany.

Now - the german only at home issue - that I have a problem with and will personally knock on that person's door when I find out who it is.

Interesting thread.

I just want to add on the cafeterias. I can't understand that this is so difficult or expensive to organise.

We had marvelous experience in Finland. I never had to give any breakfast or lunch neither to kindergarten nor to school. The primary school my son attended was sort of a part of the university where I worked, so actually I knew every day what my son was eating, they had the same food in the university's cafeteria, the ladies from the cafeteria knew me, knew my son etc. etc. Otherwise the menu of all schools is weekly published in local newspapers that parents know what their kiddies are eating. Oh and of course it was free, apart from paying high taxes.

Well ok, everybody probably has gotten already enough from Finland.

We actually had warm lunches in school in Berlin for 32 euros a month. There I was surprised that I had to pay, here I was surprised that I will not get even that.

DDBug, I forget the creep's name. OK it was only a "silly season" idea from a politiciain who wanted his name in the papers but still...

The idea of children eating at school is rejected by a lot of conservatives not just becasue of how they see the role of women but becasue it is "commmunist" to organise some things like that collectively.

What communist in school providing warm lunch, I don't understand. In communist country we had to pay for food, it was awful and we didn't have any choice. Our parents couldn't refuse it and bringing own food was prohibited.

In Finland for children with food allergies diffrent food is prepared and they do have choice, believe me.

I mean that conservatives reject the idea of providing things colelctively for the benefit of everyone. Just like the united health kasse idea.

Yup, the Stalinist state capitalist regimes in eastern Europe and the like were shitty and I'm glad they're gone.
But they've just replaced one type of capitalism with another, imvho. But that's another thread!

Or public schooling in general?

I think the introduction of language testing is aimed less at the children of educated expats and minority foreign languages and more at the 'dritte Generation' kids (possibly even vierte Generation nowadays) of 'Gastarbeiter' (i do dislike that word).
The whole probelm stems from the Gastarbeiter concept as defined by the attitude of the German government - yes you will come here you will work as our guest and in a few years time you will disappear back to where you came from.
As a result, the German govt. in the sixties and seventies didn't provide German language training for their foreign workers and families because they made the stupid and extremely near-sighted assumption that they won't be stopping anyway. On top of this they also made it difficult for those who wished to remain to get German citizenship. leaving the average Gastarbeiter with few rights and little encouragement to integrate.
The knock on effect is that in certain areas - typically large inner cities - there is a large population of children, grandchildren and by now even great grandchildren who still have families where German was never taught or learnt, who have the same rights as the original 'Gastarbeiter' and who are still treated as if they will be packing up to go home any minute now, despite the fact that the only home they have ever known is Germany.

Certainly its conservatives who cling to the outdated three tier school system.

That reserves the best places for the children of the upper middle classes and ths guarantees their future position in society. The children of working class families are shoved in under resourced schools, get no abi and thus find it hard for the future. Look back to what Gideon said about peoles reaction to those with no abi.

Germany's school system was not only slated in PISA for being slanted against children with migrant backrounds. It was also slated for offering significantly different education based on the class of the parents.

I'm against a school providing the lunch for students. What occurs is that this starts to eat into the funds allocated for education. I have heard many educators exclaim that a child can't learn on an empty stomach. But it bothers me when the cost of education is also paying for meals.

Bingo! See the lead story of the Bild Zeitung today for example that "Ausländer" are somehow seperable for mainstrean society in Germany.

I agree, providing food and education are separate issues and should be addressed and funded seperately.

I guess they don't have the problem with non-Finnish (or Swedish) speakers there seeing as they don't let any foreigners in!


one can never get enough of Finland

i agree. well sort of. but then maybe not. You see, there is only one place that any governement expenditure is funded and that is us, the tax-payers. So it doesn't really matter whether the money for a certain thing is coming from funds allotted to Department A, Depatrment B or even X,Y or Z. In the end they all come from us.

The critical points are not whether the provision of meals in schools is funded by the education budget but:

1 ) whether it is fundamentally the right decision for the state to be providing meals for school children

2 ) that if it is decided that it the correct decision for the state to provide meals, that said meals are not funded to the detriment of the rest of the educational budget.

The problem is, as has already been pointed out by Ohffs, increases in costs for the provision of meals and extra meals (like breakfast in some schools) can often occur to detriment of other funding. ie total educational funding is frozen yet there are de facto increases in food costs. What happens? other budgets must get cut. so yeah, in order to protect or ring-fence "proper" educational expenditure, it might be deemed better to fund school meal provision seperately. But in the end, we all pay for it anyway.

Hi, this is SaintDaniel's mom
He is signed on and whilst supervising him I saw this thread and thought I would post this.
(sorry, can't be bothered to sign him off and sign on myself--plus I am irritating him by crowding in on his internet time)

This situation/issue has arisen in the States as well: Suspended for speaking Spanish at School

his mum's checking up on him...

for a schoolchild, reading and writing is the most important lesson. if they miss the chance to follow class because they can't read properly, their school career is already over. my mum used to be a grundschullehrerin for many years. she says the first 2 years are crucial. for german and non-german children the same. if parents don't look after the school work or realise that they might need a little help, there is little a teacher can do. it is of course more difficult to communicate this to non-german speaking parents. whenever my mum got a chance (not that easy!) to explain the situation to the parents, things suddenly improved.
i think that cannot only be fixed with money.

My (German) husband would be interested to hear that he is in the upper middle class! He went to Gymnasium despite a one-parent family and a grandfather who was a miner. Does that meet your lower-class credentials MonksTown? Could it possibly be the case that if you are bright and work hard at school you can be academically successful?