Ghost clouds over Germany

For the second time there has been a ghost cloud over Germany for several hours drifting east. Ghost cloud meaning that the weather radar picks up a reading of a cloud without there being any visible cloud.

See the weather radar picture. The picture is an overlay of the colored weather radar picture (yellow) and a satellite picture of what is visible to the eye.

The lower big yellow area is an actual rain area (see the visible clouds). The long stretches yellow areas to the north are the readings of the weather radar, but there are no clouds to be seen.

See the article from the German "Spiegel" news magazine: Geisterwolke über der Elbe. An interview with a meteorologist at the German Weather Service Institute.

Birds and dumped Kerosen can be ruled out again for various reasons like, no bird migration being around or Kerosen dissolving within a much shorter time.

Jörg Asmus, meteorolgist, is guessing that this is some scientific or military experiment that we're wittnessing like maybe methods to confuse enemy radars or missile counter measures or spreading of aerosoles in the atmosphere.

Whatever it is, I don't like stuff that makes clouds of 400km length and that comes down somewhere where you breathe.

I think it's a secret German plot to hide Iraq's WMD from the Americans.

It's probably a moderator!

Have they tried cleaning the lens ?

Well he says if it is a defence type thing, the metal strips are a few centimetres long, so you're not likely to breathe them in, yoyo.

Having said that, it is obviously aliens in their invisible ships coming to take us away.

Maybe you could see them if the clouds in the sky would get out of the way.

Interesting!

I watch the ARD news/weather every morning and about two days ago the weatherman put his hand over a "rain cloud" like you've indicated; he told viewers to ignore it, saying it was an error, that there was no rain there. The cloud appeared in the northern half of Germany and was also quite large. At the time I thought it rather curious, because I'd never before heard a weatherman tell viewers to ignore something on a radar map of the weather. It sounds intriguing - I'll have to read the Süddeutsche article.
Thanks for the info!

Only in Germany???

the clouds are in Deggendorf, getting ready for a big rain

def looks like some aircraft has been laying chaff.

Seen it before but out at sea i would bet that if you relate it to wind direction at the time then the two blooms would be spreading in that direction.

Yes, that all may be very well and good, but someone should explain to them that they don't have clouds in the Middle East, it's always got clear skies (Hence all the satellite piccies we get), so two huge 400km clouds knocking about over the desert might be a bit of a giveaway, dontyathink?

...and besides not much need for it when all their radars are getting spoke jammed. Thing is they would prob stick a couple of chaff corridors up as a distraction so they were all looking in that direction for an inbound threat. Just as a couple of tomahawks come doglegging in towards their front doors

Edit: oh yea and they aint visible from the ground. Whole point of the thread aint it.

Ghost clouds bringing ghostly rain. How depressing. That figures. As if the real weather isn't bad enough. Guess if there has to be ghost clouds somewhere over this friggin planet, then they're bound to be directly over Germany.

Every cloud has a silver lining, MB. Now if we could just find this one we'd be rich! Rich, I say!

I read an article about this in the Spiegel and the scientist interviewed said that the Abgas (petrol?) would`ve faded away too quickly to be caught on radar for as long as the ghost clouds were showing. He honestly believes that the military and experimentation with false radar patterns has something to do with it. Apparently during WWII English and German air brigades would let off lead or metallic substances that would trick the radar into thinking a storm was coming. Don`t know why that would be relevant.. maybe to hide plane radar??

This is the most amazing piece of new! A wonderful anomaly, better than most in the X-files. The beauty of it is that it came ready made, as it were. The first I heard of it was in Spiegel – I missed the Q21 and RTL reports, unfortunately. I have been following the Donnerwetter.de reports with an eagerness bordering on ecstasy. It got better and better the more I read and surfed. First, there was this event on March 23rd which occasioned the Spiegel article. But it turned out this saga had been on-going since July 2005. The great thing about that was that a team of scientists, experts in different disciplines, had been working on possible explanations for months and had all drawn a blank. Usually in media reports of anomalies you get the report and shortly thereafter a scientist debunks it and that’s the end of the story. But here the object was so enormous and so well corroborated by multiple radar station readings that there could be no doubt as to the reality and the strangeness of it all.

The massive bulk and long-lived nature of the phenomenon, both in 2005 and in March 2006 meant that the usual explanations could be quickly dismissed – kerosene, flocks of birds (400 km long? Even the bird flu doesn’t cause that sort of panic!) and even the chaff hypothesis. The latter was appended to several reports in typical media clumsiness and inability to deal with an anomaly: one rounds off a report by saying it must be something man-made or already known like chaff, without doing the sums. But when you do the calculations you get between 10,000 and 1 million tonnes of this stuff being required to be evenly distributed to cause that sort of radar return. I estimated that up to a thousand planes would have been needed for that and was glad to read in the Q21 summary that a radar expert had come to much the same conclusion – he mentioned hundreds of planes as being necessary. But that is so unlikely as to be impossible. You might just get away with that for the July 2005 case where the cloud originated over the North Sea – you might sneak in a squadron of hundreds of planes there – but even at that, wouldn’t the busiest port in the world have had ships that would have noticed all that activity? But in March 2006 the cloud was of about the same size as the 2005 one, and was heading from central Germany toward the north – i.e. the supposed rogue air force would have had to fly over one of ht most densely populated areas of Europe. I live around there and heard and saw nothing like a massive onslaught of that sort. Nor would it have been tolerated even in light-hearted Toytown. Thus the chaff hypothesis is out the door. The same problem applies to any man-made cause – you need massive causes for massive effects. Thus the probability of a really delicious X-file nature of the beast is growing.

Love it!

Ciao,
HD

HDEasy, thanks for the info.

The satellite images show the clouds...but we cannot see them. Is that right?

It sounds like the satellite is 'seeing' a different way than we see and/or this phenomenon is not water vapor at all (what we are used to seeing as clouds is basically water vapor.)

The satellites are probably showing up the combined effects of jet contrails and generally increased moisture content of the air. With so many airplanes in the air at the same time, their trails end up collecting and producing thin layers of clouds of the byproducts of jetfuel (whatever they are...water plus carbon monoxide plus whatever does not get burned). Remember that clouds are water vapor plus 'dust' of some kind. The byproducts of jet and car fuel and industry are such sources.

There are SO SO SO many more jets in the air than never before...and of course, we have no visual idea just how many, because on cloudy days we do not see any of them. When I last flew, you would casually look out the window and see flights within sight to the left and right, without even trying. That's a lot of jet fuel being burned. Not all of it is visible as jet trails because only under certain atmospheric conditions will clouds form (i.e., the vapor freezes instead of evaporating directly).

Could be that the satellite picks up many layers at a time in a way that eludes human eyes.

BUT: when was the last time you saw a brilliant BLUE sky with absolutely no clouds? It almost NEVER happens in europe because of the gulf stream...so much warm water heading our way. I would be amazed if those days when people did not report clouds, it was the case that none existed. People simply do not know what a blue sky is anymore.

There is a camp on the internet that INSISTS that military aircraft are spraying he atmosphere with fine particles to attain control over weather...weather engineering. The ultimate weapon of mass destruction, to the extent that it is a secret to one or another large political/military power. On the internet, these are known as 'chemtrails' and there of course endless conspiracy theories. Hmmm, could be. different theories: fine particles of electrically chargeable particles are being spread purposely, etc.

Interesting that this was considered an actual baffling case for the scientists. But just because they are scientists doesn't mean that they know everything.

Probably, global warming provides the explanation. There is more moisture in the air than ever before, and more 'dust' in the fform of CO2 emissions.

OK, am I to understand that somehow the yellow area in the south is showing a rain area without visible cloud cover? Now, that IS impossible. The yellow to the north does look different, in a way, more spread out with the wind as opposed to the other formation in the south.

I have always been surprised by how cloudy Europe is, in comparison to the US. And I still think the incredible increase in industry, and resulting water vapor and dust in the air is somehow accountable for this?

The calculation of just how much material would be needed to produce such a cloud is incredible...but isn't the combined mass of clouds also quite large if measured by weight?

Finally, if we're breathing anything but water vapor, it can't be good. I remember feeling a strange lightheadedness beginning in summer 2005 that was unfamiliar to me before...could be too much bread and cheese eating, but ti could be that shit they're spreading up above.

(paranoia about what's above us is as old as the birds )

You see the basic thing about black holes is that they are... well... black.

And the thing about space is that it is... well... also black.

Which makes it very difficult to see them.

here's a good source article, in german

http://www.dmg-ev.de/gesellschaft/publikat...en/2005_3_4.pdf

scroll down to page 4 of the thing.

just a thought, could this be fuel dumping from flights going into berlin? I know they had a problem with this in sydney coz planes have to jettison before they can land if their calculations weren't exact enough when they set out.

Urrrmmm... If it is fuel dumping just outside Berlin airport then I am surprised it is still open. Fuel dumping cannot take place over land AFAIK. Something to do with a slight danger to the innocent public. Apparently aircraft fuel is quite flammable

Yeah, jets have to dump over the ocean.. plus engine fuel wouldn't just float in the air

Yes, the lower area over Hessen, i.e. the bigger, more solid thing with lots of blue, is hte real rain area - 'my' town of Darmstadt was getting a right old wetting there. But the upper horizontal east-west pair of thinner cloud formations are the ghostlier ones. There you see that the satellite image saw no cloud there, while it agreed that Darmstadt was getting soaked. Now don't you think those rain clouds actually weigh a lot? Look at those floods of the Elbe - all that destructive water started as rain - such floods can even come after one heavy downpour - that gives an idea of the tonnes and tons of stuff in there. So that way you get a picture of the sheer stuff that had to be there to be registering so long and hard on the rain-radar. The arguments holds good whether it was water, chaff or metallic particles in 'Chemtrails'. Gigo - and its converse. What you see is what you get: you see heavy stuff, you get it, in whatever form... So again the argument that it all weighed many thousand tonnes is good. Look at this sample chaf radar threatening Darmstadt (the rotters!) - it's tiny compared to our baby - and at 2 km altitude - our one was between 3 and 6 km:
http://radar-info.fzk.de/Html/Chaffa1.html

Seeking clarification from Donnerwetter on sink rate...

just a little thing, but aviation fuel, jettisonned over the kind of distance shown and in the amount involved would probably float on air quite happily being highly volatile.

what speeds do these planes fly at, if you were going fast enough you could vapourize the fuel I'm sure.

Tis illegal to dump fuel over land chaps due to the risk, regardless of how small it is.

Re: fuel dumping...I don't think you are looking at the diagrams. In the cases in July 2005 and March 2006, we're talking tons and tons of stuff...over a huge area for a long time. Like someone said, it would have to be a massive and consistent effort for this to show up as such. Something that the locals would notice I assume.

OK, this is a fascinating story, and few on TT seem to take it seriously...as usual, too busy being pedantic and sniping at each other for typos and so on... ahem. Or just too busy enjoying the sun.
So the deal is, on March 23 these ghost clouds are spotted on radar, and 5 days later a tornado hits Hamburg. A tornado! Not unheard of, but VERY unusual.
Is there some connection?
Discuss

I don't know. I still prefer the "aliens" theory. Much more fun.

fuel dumping can occur over land. in fact there have been a few cases of large fuel dumps over bavaria this past year which have hit the media, panic-mongering about the dangers of kerosine hitting the ground. at altitude kerosine disperses into a fine mist, most of it evaporates, and on the ground there is no visible impact. so, perhaps fuel dumping is the source of this ghost cloud ???

Is this not Pollen clouds heading West to the UK again.

There were complaints in the UK that peoples cars were covered in the stuff in the East of England.

Experts there stated that it was all coming over from Europe ???

I point you to the weather maps. These 'clouds' covered a much greater area that any one fuel dump could, unless we are talking about a massive, concentrated effort.
Strange.
It could be weather engineering of some kind. I'm speculating. But much of the technology is there.
Also, the rain that dumps on us is much more polluted than ever before, due to industry and increased air traffic. The sky is indeed falling

Yahoo! The German government agrees with me that the phenomenon was too massive to be caused by a few planes:

http://donnerwetter.de/news/news.mv?id=6718

(My and Google’s translation�)

Answer of the federal state government Ministry for the interior (and sport) of Lower Saxony Hannover - 53.01-30309-02, 24.05.2006

I hereby answer the small inquiry of the Green member of parliament as follows on behalf of the federal state government: According to the available information, neither in the Ministry for the interior and sport nor in other departments involved (ms, ML, MU) is there any knowledge relevant to the answer of the questions addressed to the federal state government. For this reason, in order to clarify the topic, an appropriate request for information on the questions posed was addressed to the Federal Ministry of defence (BMVg) . The Parliamentary and cabinet representative of the BMVg answered the questions in a letter of 28.04.2006 as follows:
-
Concerning 1 (what knowledge did you have of the reported phenomena over North Germany?): The Federal Ministry of defence (BMVg) does not have any knowledge of the reported phenomena. No recordings of the period in July 2005 applicable to the phenomenon are at the disposal of the BMVg due to the time limit on archiving of the data and also due to the sensor technology used. At the time in question in the region concerned, no national Air Force exercises, tactical tests or similar aeronautical activities were carried out.

After an investigation of radar recordings of the Air Force it was stated that at the end of March 2006 in Netherlands air space an aerial engagement exercise took place on the night of the 22nd to the 23rd of March 2006 approx. 1 hour before occurrence of the phenomenon. The recordings prove that thereby very small quantities of chaff were released, which however, as can be proven, had dissipated again after approximately 1 hour and 10 minutes.

Concerning 2 (How were these interpreted and explained?): The possibility of causing such a phenomenon of the described order of magnitude by active electromagnetic radiation can in principle be excluded due to the following physical considerations: Only the release of very special chaff in substantial quantities (in the range of many tons) could generate such a phenomenon. In the framework of the aerial engagement exercises, however, only a tiny fraction of this quantity is discharged by the self defence systems of aircraft of the German Federal Armed Forces as well as of allied armed forces. The Air Force has no electronic interference or deception procedures, which could cause a phenomenon of this dimension while at the same time confining a closely limited effect to a specific sensor. On the basis of the information available here, aerial systems of the German Federal Armed Forces are out of the question as possible perpetrators of the cloud phenomena.

Concerning 3 (Does the federal state government concur with the estimate of Meteorologists, Geologists and Physicists that the inexplicable weather phenomena and/or radar recordings must be due to military experiments, since otherwise no serious explanation for it is to be found? ): The German Federal Armed Forces do not perform experiments, which could cause such a phenomenon.

Concerning 4 (Does the federal state government have knowledge of appropriate military exercises over Northern Germany with the goal of defence from terrorists or influencing the weather?): The German Federal Armed Forces do not perform military exercises with the goal of defence from terrorists or for influencing the weather.

To 5 to 7 (5. Is it to be feared that health or other dangers for humans and nature might result from these attempts? 6. Which Federal authority is and/or would be responsible for the notification of such military exercises? 7. According to which relevant standards are such experiments permitted?): See answers to 3 and 4.