Rebuilding East Germany

http://www.goethe.de/kug/ges/eur/thm/en25870.htm
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/...ry265420440.asp

And if you think you are not using a lecturing tone, you've got your head up your arse.

You seem perfectly familiar with that part of your anatomy yourself

Why is it internationally recognised then, that the American system, above any other, has created a disillusioned underclass. The point you haven't adressed, is, if all Americans are so content, why is it still such a dangerous place to live. You say that the American system is superior, quoting drug addicts and poverty as supporting points: when in fact America has far more junkies and far more poor than Germany. You're talking shite mate. Fact.


Good fucking retort mate, I feel totally put in my place.

For god's sake. Argue, discuss, but don't take it back to the playground.

From the second URL:
"Only Spain, Portugal and Greece spend less on social welfare payments per capita."

http://www.eu2004.ie/templates/standard.as...ocator=7,95,109
"Spending on social welfare accounts for approximately one-quarter of current Government expenditure (about 9.87% of GNP) and benefits more than 1.3 million people."

From the 2004 budget:
http://www.finance.gov.ie/Viewtxt.asp?DocI...=1+January+2004
"2004 Allocations

Total gross voted pre-budget expenditure in 2004 is estimated at €40.4 billion - an increase of €1.9 billion or 5% compared with the forecast outturn for this year. The main allocations are:
€10 billion for Health, an increase of over €700 million;
€6.5 billion for Education, an additional €674 million, and
€5.5 billion for investment.

€10.6 billion is provided for the Department of Social and Family Affairs but the Estimates do not, as usual, include any provision for increases in social welfare payment rates next year. These will be announced in the Budget. Given the reduction in unemployment rates, from 10.3% in 1997 to a current rate of 4.4%, there has been a very significant improvement, in real terms, in the level of social welfare provision."

First URL:
"Ireland, the EU country with the lowest rate of benefits. When calculated in per-capita terms, the figures shift somewhat - and particularly when the different costs of living and thus the different cost levels of the various welfare benefits are taken into account. But here again, Germans have no cause for complaint. In 1999, Germany spent over EUR 6,600 per inhabitant on welfare benefits - almost twice as much as, for example, Ireland or Spain.

And finally from your own first URL:
Ireland shows more clearly than anyone else that less welfare is good for growth. The Celtic tiger’s economy expanded by 7.2 % in real terms each year between 1991 and 2001 - the rate of growth was 5.4 percentage points slower in Germany. But if the wheels only turn slowly, less will flow into the sources which ultimately feed the welfare spending.

QED You're wrong.

I just pulled the plug on that bullshit over Ireland spending less on social welfare benefits per capita , presumably you can grasp that most immigrants are not concerned with governmental budgets.
Where did I say that all Americans were so content ? It isn't such a dangerous place to live from the point of international terrorism which is the concern of this thread. Ketchup (an American) backs up my point about the low paid jobs out there. Fact! (he he you sound like the guy from the power city adds) .
Go on then , show me stats on junkies , I wanna see this, per capita please - let's compare like with like. But I didnt use these points as supporting my argument , I said that you seem to forget WHERE our disaffected come from in Ireland. I'm going to Juleps and would be happy to take up this convo there.

And I'm still waiting to hear of all those unanswered points you whinged on about.

From my second URL: 'IRELAND has consistently spent less than any other EU country on social welfare as a percentage of GDP over the past decade, according to a new study.'

QED You're wrong.

My unanswered point is:
Why is it internationally recognised then, that the American system, above any other, has created a disillusioned underclass. The point you haven't adressed, is, if all Americans are so content, why is it still such a dangerous place to live.

If you don't think that Germany is a safer place to live than America, I think you will find yourself in disagreement with most of the board and most of the Americans here.

if they don't want to integrate then they should go back to their land which is obviously so cultured they don't deem it necessary to integrate with their new land.

they have to intgerate.
the host country has made the initial good deed by letting them reside there.

You pulled no plug, the facts are there in black and white.

Thats not what you were querying pal : This is what you said : "Ireland has the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe and they still have long term unemployed and far more junkies than Germany."

Your own URL points out that it does not - per capita . Let's see how you do with the junkies - Ireland has more than the whole of Germany - go for it pal , I'm right behind ya.

They would have to integrate if we didnt provide them with an acceptable living standard without entering the labor market , I'll grant you that - but we do and many don't. That's the point.
Hey MysteryMan , why are there thousands of immigrants risking near death trying to enter Ireland and Britain from FRANCE (one of the higher social welfare spending countries from your URL) since our social welfare payments are so low ? Is it for the culture ?

Well you fellas have fun discussing this in the pub, hope you dont annoy too many innocent bystanders just out for a light-hearted drink or two, and I expect a full summary tomorrow morning

I do think Germany is a safer place overall , but then again this whole thread does not concern itself with criminality per se , but with that portion of criminality that is due to international terrorists. Have you ever been to the States , have you ever lived amongst its people and seen the flags just about outside most homes (even in liberal Boston) ? If the answer is no then I suggest it's you who is using his rectum as a mouthpiece. Juleps!

There's that lecturing tone again...

From
http://www.mqi.ie/drugs_awareness1.htm
15000 heroin users in Ireland.

From
http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/201/nextstep.shtml
120000 heroin users in Germany.

Let you work out the figures.

Here is what you posted: "Ireland has the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe and they still have long term unemployed and far more junkies than Germany"

Which makes you wrong to the tune of 105000 junkies but right on a per capita basis (which would make you wrong on your social welfare statement). Agreed?

Says who? You are the one that brought up the thing about international terrorists, not me. I mean, safety as a place to live, which in my opinion has a lot to do with the social welfare net.

excuse me chaps to butt in and all that..but maybe you are flogging a dead horse here. all these stats are fcukin pointless.

lets get back to east germany if poss.

BTW, back to the original topic, I just found this.

Going to post my last on this and then bow out gracefully:

1. Ireland spends, per capita and absolutely, in the bottom 3 in Europe on social welfare in Europe. This is quoted in the articles. I said it spends the least and this is true in absolute terms, even adjusted to per capita terms it is still one of the lowest in Europe.
2. You challenged me a second time to find statistics on drug use. They are there for you to see. There are per capita more junkies in Ireland and per capita less unemployed, so the connection you made between drug use and unemployment is questionable.

In summary, per capita, Ireland (and America) spends less on social welfare than Germany, and this has effects, which I think, are reflected in the general safety of the country as regarding crime and the level of poverty in the country as a whole. If you weren't so quick to jump in with your cries of bullshit, maybe you would have seen that and maybe even agreed. I think that you have been made a fool of twice in this thread and no amount of loud blustering will disguise the fact.

All that said, as I already stated in another thread, I agree that the social welfare system needs to be trimmed back and maybe even radically overhauled. So maybe we were even in some way in agreement, but certainly not in terms of presentation of ideas. And no I won't be in Juleps, catch ya another time.

omg. My thread was raped. [img]http://www.keithball.net/img/smileys/m249.gif[/img]

the government should hand out free heroin to the east german unemployed.

everyone's a winner.

slowly reduce their benefits - they won't notice this while in the warm comfort of the drug.
buy the heroin from afghanistan at fair prices - what's the new fad? make trade fair...
in this way dealers and smugglers are removed.
the farmers make a living. economy grows. people get educated.

they'll all be too fcuked to get all right wing and extreme.
do not offer this in the west and this will stop east - west migration in the search of employment.

- MM

I tend to agree. Without the social net provided by the state the number of people who resort to various vices inevitably increases. Drug use begets drug addiction begets stealing to supply habit. Or, people simply steal as it is easier than working.

Alas, with no or little costly social net provided by the state, those people who make a good living pay much less tax than their European counterparts (about 30-50% less). This gives people the economic freedom to live in places where they needn't worry about crime in the first place, but still leaves the poor behind.

A bit simplistic, but given that I should be in a bar right now that's as good as it is going to get.

as always though the worst country in this perspective is Italy,

spends a shiload on wellfare,
South of Italy get worse and worse (even as more money gets funnelled in on a yearly basis promoted by some new political scheme to aquire votes) and by comparison East Germany is California,
and crime just keeps on rising. Why? well its ok to be on wellfare by even better to be on wellfare and steal. Mafia docet.
How long has this been doing on? Since the unifaction of Italy.When was that? 19th century.

still dont know how the hell they pulled off being part of europe.

cheers

max

spellcheck

unification

I could wax on for hours about contributing to society and quote Dr. Spock about the needs of the many, but I hope that this sums it up for me...

@ acquascutum

There are a number of arguments why it indeed would make sense to give registered heroin addicts free pure heroin.

You could break the illegal mob like trade in the drug. You break the criminality you society experiences as rob everything to pay for their next fix. And the death rate / health costs would plummet as it would be pure dosed heroin rather than stretched with brick dusst or worse stuff, like powdered bleach!

Jaysus , u have a funny definition of the word "gracefully" .

First up , you have quite the proverbial big mouth on ya don't ya ? You mouth off about figures without reference to sources for information - and that's what I was getting at - your comments with regard to social welfare spending and junkie numbers demonstrate this well - you said that there were far more junkies in Ireland than Germany , without the proviso of population density.
As to your other ORIGINAL statement that we "have the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe" (check wording) that is indeed bullshit - we don't. Amending your comments in the light of a source is kinda bolting the door when the ponies have left the barn.

I asked you before if you had worked out there in a McJob in the States but you never responded. Making the presumption that's a "No" , it would be perfectly in line with your habit of posting without any reference to the underlying facts.

I do see a connection between petty crime and social welfare spend - you never asked me this before pal - but I also think that spend on policing is at least as important , but u don't bother to mention that , you know that old German saying " A policeman behind every tree". In summary I'm perfectly happy with you giving away your money to anyone you choose , I'm just not so happy with you insisting that I do the same.

But thanks for your "objective" summary of the dialogue.

Ah, "proverbial," the proverbial overused word.

Didn't MM specify that he was referring to "per capita" figures?

Nope - here is the original post:

i like jena. nice place, very oldy worldy in the town centre.

OK parnell you win. Happy. Good. I didn't know I would be arguing with an anal retentive asshole, with the agression of a terrier and the brains to match, so I didn't specify one way or the other, exactly if I meant absolute or per capita. You haven't convinced anyone pal, least of all yourself I reckon.

Not graceful, but still the end. End of transmission.

Oooooo! And so graceful !
Did you always want to be a ballerina or did you take it up late in life ?

dresden has washed up well in the last few years.
maybe even leipzig at a push.

not!