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Rebuilding East Germany

"has failed"

Toytown Germany > Discussion forum > Germany-wide > Life in Germany
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Inflatablewoman
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticl...14§ion=news

QUOTE
BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany's bid to modernise its former communist eastern states with 1.25 trillion euros (830 billion pounds) of transfers since 1990 has failed, and the region will remain a serious drag on the wider economy, according to a leaked report.

The study, commissioned by Economy Minister Wolfgang Clement and Transport Minister Manfred Stolpe, concludes that the 90 billion euros Berlin spends annually on rebuilding the so-called new federal states is largely wasted, weekly news magazine Der Spiegel reported.

The 13 experts on eastern Germany charged with compiling the report, including former Hamburg Mayor Klaus von Dohnanyi, industry and union officials and economists, said the east has ground to a halt and the west is falling into ruin as a result.

"The ongoing internal west-east transfer of cash and other consequences of German unification are directly or indirectly responsible for about two thirds of the country's economic weakness," Der Spiegel quoted the report as saying.

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder promised in 1998 when he took office that rebuilding the eastern states would be a top priority for his coalition of Social Democrats and environmentalist Greens.

Recently, however, opposition politicians including Christian Democrat leader Angela Merkel, an east German, have accused him of ignoring the east's woes as reforms to the wider economy, terrorism and other issues have taken centre stage.

Heinz Schmalholz, an economist specialising in structural change at the Ifo Institute's branch in Dresden, eastern Germany, said that while it is easier with hindsight to identify mistakes made after reunification, no politically viable alternatives have been put forward.

WESTWARDS MIGRATION

"One of the main criticisms has been that wages rose much too quickly after reunification," boosting unemployment, he told Reuters.

"But what would people then have done without that? They would of course have migrated to the west where there were higher wages," he added. "I don't know whether the politicians would have wanted to take responsibility for that."

Although east Germany makes up just a quarter of the total German labour force, it accounts for half the nation's unemployed, said Lehman Brothers' economist Sandra Petcov.

That meant that nearly half of the gross transfers to the east during the second half of the 1990s was spent on social security payments. Investment accounted for just 15 percent.

The leaked government report suggests some remedies to reverse damage caused to the east's economy in the last decade and officials in four working groups are currently evaluating which can feasibly be implemented, Der Spiegel said.

The suggestions include long-term tax relief for eastern German companies and cash incentives for guaranteed jobs; concentration of economic aid in specific growth centres; a new reconstruction master plan; and the inclusion of at least one eastern German firm in tenders for government contracts.

Some analysts, including Lehman's Petcov, are more upbeat about the process of reunification and suggest former Chancellor Helmut Kohl's goal of creating "blooming landscapes" in the east is gradually being achieved.

"It may well be that another 10 or 15 years are required until full convergence has been achieved, but the costs of getting there are likely to decline as the goal is approached," Petcov said.

"An optimist might even argue that if current structural reform plans are implemented, Germany may yet eventually emerge economically stronger than west Germany ever was," she added.

Minister Stolpe, who is also responsible for rebuilding east Germany, said on Monday that the government needed to re-think funding for the east and a "readjustment" was in order.

German debt in billions...
[img]http://www.keithball.net/img/sa_folder/dd/absolut.gif[/img]

At what point are they gonna wake up and stop taxing me. East Germany is screwed, and I am sick of paying for it.
acquascutum
GIVE IT BACK TO THE RUSKIS
Kza
Well the germans seem to have decided that unity and social security is more important than material wealth. Yet they still have a great standard of living.

In a society where money comes above everything, its nice to see that they have managed to place a more benevolent goal above money.

As foreigners it might be hard to understand this I guess, but its their country, and noones exactly suffering, so whats the problem?

If your looking for somewhere where the pursuit of wealth is placed above all else including the care and integration of other human beings who have had totalitarianism enforced on them their whole lives, then you might enjoy living somewhere other than germany.

Sure, my own political beliefs tend more toward the free market end of things but I dont see it as my role to criticise the desires of germans to help out their fellow brothers and sisters from the east.
parnell
Remove the Goddamn welfare system , then watch that unemployed number tumble...goes doubly for foreigners and for healthcare here.
jeremy
Kza is right. It is a very fair country. The standard of living here is higher than in Britain.

Removing the welfare system would create millions of McJobs.
grtho
It's been pretty much a failure and I'm sick of the money beng pumped in there.

Most of it of course has benefitted BIG industry who happily closed down most of the DDR (not that the place didn't have BIG problems) to get a passive market and a cheap pool of labour.
parnell
QUOTE (jeremy @ Apr 6 2004, 09:52 AM)
Removing the welfare system would create millions of McJobs.

And what is so wrong about that , I have had a few McJobs myself in my time , there's an entire class of Yanks who spend a few years in a McJob before they move up to the first stage of management. It's a lot better for all concerned than the alternative IMHO.
acquascutum
East Germany great advertisment for EU expansion...

what chance has the new countries got when west germany has thrown 1.25 trillion euros in the last 10+ years at 10 million people and the place is still fucked?

the east germans thought they'd all have 37 hour weeks, great wages and drive round in bmws. now they realise it's not like that they're bitter.

east germany no future.
fact.
over 1 million gone west. and who has gone west? the educated ones.
which leaves the dregs behind. no wonder there's all this right wing shit going on there.
Ketchup
@acquascutum
Couldn't have said it better myself...

QUOTE
As foreigners it might be hard to understand this I guess, but its their country, and noones exactly suffering, so whats the problem?

Don't take this personally but this is EXACTLY the Germans' problem. "My standard of living is fine, where's the problem?" The problem is that they don't see the writing on the wall. Voters are near-sighted. They're not suffering so they don't see any real reason to change things. They SAY they understand the need for reform but they bitch like hell when it affects them. Wait another 20 years and see what happens when there are more retirees than working taxpayers (don't know if the figures are exactly right but it will be a HUGE problem.) Reform in Germany is too slow to make a difference. Wait and see. The standard of living here is going to plummet in the next quarter century. The botched reunification was just the first nail, the EU-expansion might have been the second...
grtho
Yeah parnell, I've done McJobs and the like too before i got a "real" job.
Trouble is, the idea of cutting welfare etc is that these people will ALL do Mc Jobs FOR EVER, nit get a EUR 100K job a couple of years later!

Weakening the welfare state and labour market regulation is about creating a low paid "switch on / switch off" pool of cheap labour that capital can use at will and then easily discard and also use as a weapon against those in permenant employment.

Suggest you read Barbara Friedrichs (?) book about low paid workers in the USA, might open your eyes a bit to the "wonders" of the American economy...

The qualitivie difference between the takeover of the DDR by Western (Gertman) Capital and how they have marched in to Poland et al (cheaper than tanks in the long run) is that they have not deliberately destroyed the industrial base of the eastern countries like they did in eastern Germany to expand their markets. Indeed there has been a lot of industrial investment so that these countries are often supply western Europe.

Capital is however, already moaning about the rising cost of living in countires like Hungary and already moving industrial production to China for example.
parnell
@ grtho
Dude , first of all I worked for three months in a McJob handling luggage in Logan airport in Boston , I saw those people , some of them have NO DRIVE whatsoever , there is absolutely nothing wrong and a lot right with these guys continuing to be incentivised for doing this job. I'm sorry but if you honestly think that allowing these people to feed on the welfare state will improve their or anyone else's lot you are mistaken.

There is nothing sinister or wrong with working for a (low-paid) living. On the contrary at least these people felt that they were contributing something to their country , something which could not be said for quite a large proportion of modern day Germans/1st generation immigrants.

Maastricht was a success in Ireland precisely because it rested control of our economy from our local politicians so they were not free to have ridiculous health and welfare budgets (although we have sadly returned to that) , these were PRECONDITIONS for entry , the same should be the case for all countries wishing to join the EU.
Ketchup
@grtho

I think you're talking about Barbara Ehrenreich. I briefly read the summary of what she wrote and she basically writes that (shock, horror) low-skilled, low-paid workers in U.S. have a tough time of it. In my opinion, that's life. I'm not a cold person and I do wish that everyone could have a easy life with many of the things they want but that just doesn't jive with reality.

I have personally known people, like parnell pointed out, that only worked low paying jobs as a stopover on the way to something better. Some people don't want to do what it takes to better themselves so they stay in crappy low-paying jobs and believe it or not, many of them are happy. I believe you can get by on low-wages and still be happy. In my opinion, the U.S. is in this respect very fair. Unemployment in the U.S. is 5.6%; I think that's a sign that something is working. Work hard, better yourself, get paid more. Be lazy, never better yourself, have no ambition, get paid less. Makes sense to me. I saw something on TV here where unemployed people in Germany get an apartment, get furniture, a TV, kitchen, etc. all paid for by the state (was nice stuff too I might add). Great, fantastic. I wish money grew on trees too but that's unfortunately not the case. Germany's going to learn the lesson the hard way i'm afraid.
jeremy
Ketchup, what are you doing here if it is paradise in America?

I flew to California once for a job interview with a software company. Looked cool until you discovered you only had 8 days holiday a year which rose in 5 years to 10 days - whay!

Poor people stay poor. Middle class educated richer people get richer. Not all are ambitious driven career types. Once family comes along that ambition fire and energy goes into keeping the family afloat. Career types who stay driven end up divorced.
Kza
QUOTE
Some people don't want to do what it takes to better themselves so they stay in crappy low-paying jobs and believe it or not, many of them are happy.

Kind of sad how todays materialistic wealth driven society tends to equate the essence of ones being with the job they have.

As far as Im concerned, sitting in the office all day is just the boring part of life that pays for the rest, the more important aspects, like developing rich life experiences and forming meaningful relationships with people.

If anything, a low-paying, low-stress, low-responsibility job would free up time for me to concentrate on the things I am really on this planet for, connecting with people, having fun, learning stuff, joking around, adding to the list of experiences, eventually having a family...

Man just look around, look at all the highly paid fatcats, rushing round to this meeting and that. Thats sad how they let work take over as the most important thing in life, these guys might die rich, and if thats their goal good on them, but I would rather die happy than rich.

I have nothing against having an average job forever, because that certainly doesnt mean that I am going to have an average life. On the contrary, I refuse to let my job, or "economic status" affect how much I enjoy life in any way.

But on the other points, yeah I agree, germany needs reforms badly over the next 20 years, but I am confident that the next generation of voters will enact these reforms, particularly in response to drops living standards.

A far bigger problem is equality on a global perspective. Theres many millions of poor people in africa, asia, south america even, who are going to eventually want, and get a higher standard of living. But I dont think think it will be a case of their standard of living rising to meet ours, I think we will just have to accept that to achieve equality on a global level, we have to meet half-way. The idea of unchecked industrial growth fuelling the material wealth of a select few western nations is unsustainable, and the world will soon need to look for other solutions.

The days of the western world riding on the backs of poor nations is coming to an end, and thats a good thing. I myself predict a new Dark Ages, beginning with nuclear war, followed by several hundred years of extreme poverty and a huge drop in development and population levels.

Probably eventual extinction of the human species will occur, and thats fair enough, we dont deserve to stay here, look at how we treat not only planet earth, but our fellow human beings! And to think some people believe we should colonize space and spread our destructive ideas around the universe!
Karen
For your information: 25% of the total amount of taxes (=Solidaritätszuschlag) is paid by the east-germans (still living in East-Germany) themselves.

Karen - tired about the whole East-contra-West-and-West-contra-East-Discussions especially when even foreigners start them over and over again -
Inflatablewoman
QUOTE (Karen @ Apr 6 2004, 12:00 PM)
tired

You dont have to click on the thread.
acquascutum
QUOTE
25% of the total amount of taxes (=Solidaritätszuschlag) is paid by the east-germans (still living in East-Germany) themselves.

@ karen

where did you get this info from?
do you have a link to these stats?
Big C
I never realised the situation was so bad. This is really interesting to see various different people discussing the topic. Keep it going - TT might finally teach me something.
flogger
i am sure if the germans had their time again the east-west reunification process would not have occured so hastily.

it was purely down to helmut kohl and his boys seeking another election win. it was done so speedily, it could only end in tears. the russians had stripped anything of use back to russia...the myth of full employment in the east also swayed these stupid politicians..
i was in berlin at the time...the east was simply in a dreadful state..years of decay due to russian apathy and impoverishment..

happy days.
MysteryMan
QUOTE
They SAY they understand the need for reform but they bitch like hell when it affects them.

Oh that never happens in other countries.

Great, another thread with expats and their simple solutions: 'If they would only do it my way'. Novel.
Big C
But that's the fun, trying to sort the educated and interesting from the opinionated and dumb. biggrin.gif
grtho
@ Karen, as long as I pay taxes towards unification of Germany I think I (or any of the poste5rs have EVERY right to talk about it as much as we like) Particualry as I think you'll find that we non-Germans pay a HIGHER proprtion of our incomes in tax and social insurance than Germans do! mad.gif

To agree (for a change wink.gif ) with something from America:

No taxation without representation!

(and a powerless comitte in Munich City Council doesn't count)

@ Flogger. Yes you are right, Kohl wanted an easy re-election and promised the east Germans everything.
acquascutum
QUOTE
i am sure if the germans had their time again the east-west reunification process would not have occured so hastily.
today's society. want it all now. can't wait.
west germany rebuilt with 50 year marshall plan. 50 years of hard work and strategy.
what did the west germans learn from this? diddly. that's what.
why?
they try to rebuild a country simply by throwing money at it.
folly.
can remember all those west germans inviting the ossies into their homes giving them a couple of deutsch marks to go out and have a good time, let the missus spruce herself up a bit. if an ossie turned up on the doorstep now they'd probably beat them with a stick. a sharp oine at that.

QUOTE
it was purely down to helmut kohl and his boys seeking another election win.

@ flogger

too true. he wanted to leave some kind of legacy. go down in history.
corrupt fucker. that's what he'll be remembered for.
send him to the hague. try him.
Brummie
QUOTE
As far as Im concerned, sitting in the office all day is just the boring part of life that pays for the rest, the more important aspects, like developing rich life experiences and forming meaningful relationships with people.

If anything, a low-paying, low-stress, low-responsibility job would free up time for me to concentrate on the things I am really on this planet for, connecting with people, having fun, learning stuff, joking around, adding to the list of experiences, eventually having a family...

Not sure i totally agree with this, although it is important to have a balance in life of course. Given that we have to spend the vast majority of our adult life at work (excluding sleeping), it seems a real shame if we just write it off as something to be done automatically and unconsciously until the rest of life can be squeezed into the gaps around it.

Without wanting to sound like a pretentious arse: at its best work is the way in which people can change things and alter the world in some way - a 'project' through which someones's plans and ideas actually get done. That sounds to me at least like it should be a very satisfying thing to do and lots of people who start their own businesses seem to feel that way.

Dunno much about it, but I think the Marxist idea of alienation has something to do with the way in which modern economies detach a worker's effort from the satisfaction gained from appreciating the outcome of that effort - and replaces that satisfaction with money.

Seems to me the only way to get more than that out of work in our society is through education - which allows people to avoid the kind of mindless, repetitive, fruitless labour that you mention - and get to a position where they can do something more fulfilling.

just some random thoughts going through my head as i fill in the 15th spreadsheet of the day...
flogger
yes.., balance is all important brummie in anything you do, but all the same...
roll on the weekend.

Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Work is the refuge of people who have nothing better to do.

-- Oscar Wilde
Kza
QUOTE
Seems to me the only way to get more than that out of work in our society is through education - which allows people to avoid the kind of mindless, repetitive, fruitless labour that you mention - and get to a position where they can do something more fulfilling.

Very very interesting comment. I have however had the reverse experience. Before I got myself "educated", I worked on a farm, and stacked supermarket shelves, and spent the whole day working closely with people discussing all sorts of interesting issues. It was important to coordinate and discuss things with other people. I could see a direct link between what I do and people being able to eat. The crops I help harvest can feed certain numbers of people, the cans I stack can feed certain numbers of people.

After my education, my job consists of sitting alone in an office pushing buttons and clicking on things. Apparently I am supposed to shuffle some numbers around in order to create products that help other people shuffle numbers around. Im not sure if its benefitting anyone. The results of my labour are probably limited to nullifying the results of someone elses labor in a different company, or probably just disappear in some accounting somewhere along the line, and I dont really care.

At least I got a job though.

Its worth considering too, that when homo sapiens was in its hunting-gathering phase we had to spend less than 20 hours per week working in order to find the food we needed to eat (in temperate regions). Now, after thousands of years of inventing labor saving devices, we have to spend about 40 hours per week working, just to pay for the labor saving devices!

Something went wrong somewhere on the line (hint: rulers needed armys, which needed feeding), and its about to catch up with us.
Hazza
QUOTE
Now, after thousands of years of inventing labor saving devices, we have to spend about 40 hours per week working, just to pay for the labor saving devices!

I've asked this question before too...In Roman times, the average working week was 30 hours. We have all these time saving devices now. So where's the time going then??? Even in the 1950's the average working week was 40 hours - a time before computers and mobile phones and all the other stuff that's supposed to make our lives easier, and let us work more efficiently. We should all be working about 10 hours a week by now, shouldn't we?
acquascutum
QUOTE
In Roman times, the average working week was 30 hours.

and the average life expectency then?

in real terms that's a long working week when you live to the ripe old age of 12.
Ketchup
@jeremy
I didn't say America is paradise. I said the American economic model is, for the most part, fair and that it works. There are reasons that America is No. 1 economically and that's because of the American form of capitalism. There are plenty of reasons to criticize America and I AM NOT waving the flag but you can't dispute America's economic success.
MysteryMan
Yes, and there are reasons why Germany is a safer country to live in than America and that is exactly because they don't have the American form of capitalism here.
acquascutum
QUOTE
you can't dispute America's economic success.

@ ketchup

agreed. but it isn't nowhere near as good as the german model.
it's brilliant. i wish every country would adopt it. it's so simple...
have less and less people paying into a system and those who take it out demand more. government is too weak and doesn't reduce the out goings.
eventually no one pays in and everyone takes out.
fantastic.
parnell
QUOTE (Ketchup @ Apr 6 2004, 02:00 PM)
@jeremy
I didn't say America is paradise. I said the American economic model is, for the most part, fair and that it works. There are reasons that America is No. 1 economically and that's because of the American form of capitalism. There are plenty of reasons to criticize America and I AM NOT waving the flag but you can't dispute America's economic success.

Lemme help you out here Ketchup - you appear to be having a problem with that little thing called reality - NEVER in the history of planet earth has there been a nation dominant in economic terms BEFORE it first became dominant militarily. Think about that for a moment. Next consider how Russia was exhausted from the wars in Europe to recognise how you (thankfully) got the jump on them. Wanna get into the little invasion of Venezuela to rest the digging rights to the Panama canal from the French ?
Dude , you're no.1 right now , but it's not because of some Mickey Mouse system you guys developed , don't kid yourself. Germany pre WW1 had a much more capitalistic system and at least in economic and engineering terms even the Nazis were kickin ass.
parnell
QUOTE (MysteryMan @ Apr 6 2004, 02:07 PM)
Yes, and there are reasons why Germany is a safer country to live in than America and that is exactly because they don't have the American form of capitalism here.

Pardon me my Irish colleague but that is plain old bullshit - in the States high school kids are forced to recite some silly pledge to the flag every morning , is that brazen nationalism/facism/propoganda/brainwashing ? Sure it is.
Does it help American CITZENS to feel AMERICAN - you betya - and it works.
Nothing to do with capitalism - leaving these losers to hang around all day on our welfare state and plot bombing campaigns against "the man" is far more dangerous. Much better stickin them into McJobs.
grtho
QUOTE
There are reasons that America is No. 1 economically and that's because of the American form of capitalism.

Including liudicrously cheap oil, the Federal Reserve trying to set world wide interest rates and giving America a limitless credit line / deficit, a large pool of cheap exploitable labour to the south, very limited workers rights and benefits, a very close connection between government and the militray-industrial complex that uses organisations such as NATO to export its weaponry to Europe or to a string of corrupt regimes around the world.

America's current success doesn't just come from a couple of wised-up professors at harvard or an inherent American "can-do".
Inflatablewoman
The real solution is somewhere in the middle. Payments for those out of work, but more money for workers in Government schemes. Even if its some stupid scheme that de-cobbles the autobahns, or make a big pyramid of rasberry jelly. Just get the people doing something, so that at the end you dont just have debt but something tangible to show for the cash.

Throwing money away is just bloody stupid.
Ketchup
QUOTE
Poor people stay poor.

Being poor is relative. If everybody gets richer then the people at the low end of the scale are still "poor". Look at all the progress in the last century. Living standards in the U.S. are much higher than 20 years ago and that's for everyone not just the rich. Take the poor in China or India for example. They have seen a lot less improvement in that time. By the way, class mobility is more dynamic in the U.S. than most anywhere else. If you're poor in a country other than the U.S., you're MORE likely to stay poor not less.

@parnell
I also didn't say America's form of capitalism was the best possible form of capitalism but it's the best going right now. I don't buy the military argument either. Japan became an economic powerhouse after WWII and didn't even have a real military. Sort of the chicken and the egg thing. Capitalism is the main cause of human progress in the past century and that IS reality.

@grtho
Whatever. The UK, Australia, Japan and most western European countries employ a form of capitalism that is very similar to American capitalism and are very successful. There are plenty of other reasons why American capitalism works even better and that's because it's very flexible (single currency, large mobile labor pool, economies of scale etc.).
You seem to think America is this big evil place out to exploit everything and I just don't buy it.

By the way, the price of oil is incredible high right now and Alan Greenspan is not pressuring other countries to do anything with their intrest rates.
MysteryMan
QUOTE
Pardon me my Irish colleague but that is plain old bullshit - in the States high school kids are forced to recite some silly pledge to the flag every morning , is that brazen nationalism/facism/propoganda/brainwashing ? Sure it is.
Does it help American CITZENS to feel AMERICAN - you betya - and it works.
Nothing to do with capitalism - leaving these losers to hang around all day on our welfare state and plot bombing campaigns against "the man" is far more dangerous. Much better stickin them into McJobs.

No pardon me. I have absolutely no idea what the pledge of allegiance has to do with the fact that America is more 'dangerous' a place to live. And to suggest that somehow to force the handful of muslims that are planning bombing campaigns into McDonalds jobs would somehow help, is the only thing stinking of shit in this whole thread, my Irish colleague.
oli2000
[QUOTE]Living standards in the U.S. are much higher than 20 years ago

Really? While in the 50s thru 70s it was normal for a middle class family in the US to own a house in the suburbs and a larger car, all with the wife staying at home, nowadays both need to go to work and maybe still can afford less. I doubt the standard of living has improved since the 50s (modern conveniences enabled by technological advances excepted, of course).
don_riina
QUOTE
Payments for those out of work, but more money for workers in Government schemes. Even if its some stupid scheme

Thats what happens right now in Germany, the stupid scheme bit. I was reading a brilliant aticle in the Economist or some other bored-on-the-train-and-at-least-its-in-english type magazine, and there was a big article on the German umemployment system. Apparently, and many will no doubt be able to correct me here, there are loads of crappy little job-training centers about, that "train" umemployed people to do useless crap, like how to use windows 3.1 or whatver. Skills that will NOT get them a job. The centres employ alot of people, keeping umemployment numbers a touch lower, but just sit there wasting money.

Thats my lot. I don't want another scrap about market forces and government intervention. Sorry ruggedy...
Ketchup
@oli2000
How can you exclude modern conveniences? What about the advances in medicine? Don't forget that in a lot of families, both parents work because they THINK they have to. In reality, they're doing it because they bought a house that's bigger than they need (The average house in 1950 was much smaller than the average house today), have two new cars, a maxed out credit card and have to pay for their kid's new Air Jordans. Nobody is forcing them to live that way.
parnell
QUOTE (MysteryMan @ Apr 6 2004, 02:53 PM)
No pardon me. I have absolutely no idea what the pledge of allegiance has to do with the fact that America is more 'dangerous' a place to live. And to suggest that somehow to force the handful of muslims that are planning bombing campaigns into McDonalds jobs would somehow help, is the only thing stinking of shit in this whole thread, my Irish colleague.

Uhhhmmm maybe "integration" of these miscreants into the society rather than leaving them free to wander around continually becoming more disillusioned might strike any bells? The guys who planned 9-11 were mostly from European and Suadi cells , not American ,notice the lack of condemnation of that atrocity from prominent European Muslim clerics ??? Now contrast that with American Muslims putting stars and stripes in front of their stores ... didnt see too much of that in Europe on tv now did we ?
Kza
QUOTE
The guys who planned 9-11 were mostly from European and Suadi cells

I thought they were from the CIA, DOD and republican party.
MysteryMan
I agree that most European counties could do more to integrate their immigrant populations, but forcing them into low skill, low esteem jobs ain't gonna do it, sorry. And I don't see what this has to do with a) why Germany is a safer place to live in than America b ) social welfare expenditure

Anyway, I did see a program about Muslims in Germany, all of whom did condemn the attacks.
acquascutum
QUOTE
Living standards in the U.S. are much higher than 20 years ago

it is.
fact.
they've all installed microwave ovens, custom kitchens, refrigerators and colour tvs.
not to mention they've all got mtv.
Ketchup
Who planned 9-11?

I think it was Michael Moore. It's painfully obvious that he had a motive.
parnell
QUOTE (MysteryMan @ Apr 6 2004, 03:32 PM)
I agree that most European counties could do more to integrate their immigrant populations, but forcing them into low skill, low esteem jobs ain't gonna do it, sorry. And I don't see what this has to do with a) why Germany is a safer place to live in than America b ) social welfare expenditure

Anyway, I did see a program about Muslims in Germany, all of whom did condemn the attacks.

Say how do you think the self-esteem of unemployed people is higher than that of the employed ? Maybe you've been too long outside Ireland to notice that most of the junkies there come from the long-term unemployed.

As i noted before I did work McJobs in the States and not only one of them , I bounced in the Purple Shamrock off Faneuil Hall, those people do NOT have low self-esteem , but perhaps it is people like you who look down on them who would cause them to form such a self-image. Jobs /work do give people hope , regardless of how poorly paid it is to you.

One of the cells for the 9-11 bombings was in Hamburg , what does that tell you ? By NOT integrating our European societies are allowing them to fester in their non-European-ness , I would have thought this obvious from my last 3 posts but you seem determined not to want to read it. No one will work Mc Jobs when they can do just as well or very nearly claiming the dole . U crystal ?

I didnt see such a program , but come on then , see if you can find it and I'll download it.
oli2000
QUOTE
How can you exclude modern conveniences?

Because I thought this thread is only about the MONEY and what people can afford… and purely from a financial perspective people aren't really better off today.
I'd agree that wealth in general is better today than 50 years ago, for example, who would have thought then that everybody today, including kids, would be running around with a mobile phone, because people actually get them for free…
MysteryMan
I have done more that my fair share of shitty jobs too, so try not be so lecturing about it, like a good lad. Ireland has the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe and they still have long term unemployed and far more junkies than Germany. So what is your point? Junkies are unemployed because they are Junkies, not the other way round.

QUOTE
I didnt see such a program , but come on then , see if you can find it and I'll download it.

Couldn't be arsed mate. It was one of the Stern TVs or Spiegel TV episodes. If you don't believe me, I can live with that.

And anyway, as you still haven't answered my main points, I'll just take it that your one of those that Big C was referring to.

Germany is safer, because it has a fairly high social safety net and a few Muslims who have a problem with our way of life has nothing got to do with it.
Ketchup
@oli2000
So you'd agree that people are wealthier but also that they have less money than 50 years ago? I suppose you're talking about disposable income here. That could be true percentage wise but I would argue that they are still better off. If they have less disposable income, it's because they have much more debt than in 1950. But that's self-inflicted and doesn't reflect their general standard of living. I'd say we're wealthier AND have a higher standard of living.
parnell
QUOTE (MysteryMan @ Apr 6 2004, 03:54 PM)
I have done more that my fair share of shitty jobs too, so try not be so lecturing about it, like a good lad. Ireland has the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe and they still have long term unemployed and far more junkies than Germany. So what is your point? Junkies are unemployed because they are Junkies, not the other way round.

Couldn't be arsed mate. It was one of the Stern TVs or Spiegel TV episodes. If you don't believe me, I can live with that.

And anyway, as you still haven't answered my main points, I'll just take it that your one of those that Big C was referring to.

Germany is safer, because it has a fairly high social safety net and a few Muslims who have a problem with our way of life has nothing got to do with it.

There's no lecturing about it pal , point is u claim that low paid jobs equal low -esteem , I'm telling you you're wrong cos I've worked in some in the US where people are damn happy to have them.
Ireland has the lowest social welfare payments in the whole of Europe - thats absolute bullshit - post a source for that please. I suppose they are coming to IReland for the weather according to you.
I know of far fewer junkies who were made unemployed because they took up dope than those who were already unemployed and went on it due to self - esteem issues , how many suits u know put smack in their arm chum ?

Just what are your main points pal ? Far as I can make out I've adressed all of them - that giving people jobs no matter how shit in a soceity with no social net gives them far more self-esteem than any hand out ever could. Don't believe me - just talk to a few more Yanks.
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