My ex-flatmate is threatening me with the police

Help!

I rented a room in this German girl’s apartment for 8 months. I never had a contract or anything.

She suddenly decided to move out….so I had to go too.

So I paid up my last three weeks rent plus fifty towards painting (because she said she was going get painters in) and went.

Now she’s emailing me claiming I owe nearly 1000 Euros (it’s a different amount each mail) for cleaning, painting and electricity.

She’s threatening me with the Police and the Ausländermeldeamt.

Can she do this?

What can I do?

<NGB>

Sounds like she's trying to blackmail you. If your residency permit and police registration are in order and have been, I don't think she can legally get anything more from you.

Maybe she just thinks you're an ignorant foreigner who will pay up to avoid trouble.

There's no contract so you're fine regarding the rental. If, however, you're illegally here in Germany, you may have a problem. I wouldn't be surprised though that she wasn't even allowed to let you live with her-I have a clause in my contract which prohibits me from sub-leasing. So you could counter her with that. Perhaps you should join the Mieterbund, only 40-80 eur a year and includes free legal advice. You could also get yourself legal protection insurance which is about EUR 100 a year. Would be useful if she decides to sue you.

Just tell her to piss off, she's bluffing and as Ulzsses said if you are legally here there is nothing for the Police to be concerned about.

are you here legally, NGB?
if not, then fess up, cos the advice would no doubt be different

Yeah, if you're legally here then there's no problem. She can't report you to the police for supposedly not paying your expenses. But, as Ulysses says, she can sue you.

Ask her for a complete breakdown of the expenses and all the receipts. Consider if the request is fair; if you were only living there for 8 months then it is *not* your responsibility to get the apartment back to the condition it was when your ex-housemate first moved in. You should only pay for any damage/wear and tear that you caused in those 8 months. The repainting of your bedroom would be fair, for example, but you have already contributed 50 euros towards this, which is sufficient.

Listen to her and try and get her to explain what the costs are and why you should pay them. But don't give her any money unless you think it's fair. I suggest sitting down face-to-face, preferably in a public location!

Good luck, let us know what happens.

Edit: I just wanted to clarify. As the Hauptmieterin, when your housemate moved out, she had to get the apartment back to the condition it was when she moved in, or she loses her deposit. Inevitably there are expenses involved with this, and it sounds as though this is what she is after from you. But if, say, she lived there for three years and you lived there for only 8 months, then it is absolutely not your responsibility to pay for the repairs to the property. That is her responsibility and should have been reflected in the rent that she was charging her tenants (e.g. you). How long had she been living there for?

I am here legally!!

and the Houameister knew I was there...my roommate told her that I was a friend who just staying to avoid having me on her apartment contract.

But i haven't yet regestered my new address

He is being awfully quiet about his status; But he AIN'T GOING BACK!

Edit: Alles klar!

If she has e-mail send her this link

well, then - just tell her to piddle off.
In fact, tell her if she doesn't bloody well leave you alone, you'll go to the police yourself.

Plan for tomorrow: go to the KVR and register your change of address.
After you've done that, go to the Mietverein at Sendlinger Tor and ask them what you should do for the best (you'll probably have to cough up some cash for fees first).

Right, but there are laws regulating when someone stops being a guest and starts being a sublettor. Especially considering that you paid rent, even without a contract. You have no responsiblity to pay for cleaning, painting etc., though. She is the renter with her name on the contract - so don't worry about it. She can't do anything to you.

I have asked her for a breakdown in csts and she gave them two me on two seperte occassions via email. Each time the costs are different and for different things. She has even forwarded me emails from her landlord giving her costs that is to be deducted from her kaution but I simply replied telling her these do not concern me, as I have no contract with them or her for that matter. I was to have a contract between her and I when I initially moved in but after reminding her several times and her just saying "oh yes I will have to get one" and just never getting a contract I eventually just forgot about it. But now I have read these horror stories and she says she wants to send me an offial reminder of costs and wants my new address and befre that she planned on reporting me to the police or auslander something or other. I have paid what I felt was fair and I cannot believe that she can have the police after me. Where I am from the police would just dismise this as a civil matter or dismiss it due to the fact she has to contract to back up her claim of "theft and fraud." Does this apply here?

You're correct, it's a civil matter and does not concern the police.

Right there is your answer.

Ex-Flatmat is now asking me for my address so she can send me an official reminder for these costs. Total bollocks! Now she wants things official. Anyhow, she has stated that if I do not provide her with my new address she will go to the Police or Ausländermeldeamt to get the address herself. What is the Ausländermeldeamt?

The Ausländermeldeamt is where you, as a foreigner, (hopefully) registered when you arrived here. They will not provide her with your address or any other personal details. Nor will the police.

It's The Men in Black

At Small Town Boy... She has lived there approximately 31 months.

Umm...you have said that you are here legally. However, as an American (your profile says you are an American), you would have had to register yourself with these guys, the Ausländerbehörde. No way of getting around that. That's the only way I know of getting a residency permit.

If you are here on vacation (max 6 months, but you have to extend it from the automatic 3 months in person), then you are not allowed to work or go to school.

Of course, she can't go to the police and register you as an "Ausländer". Even in Germany, it's not illegal to be a foreigner.

Her claims sound ridiculous, but there is a teeny tiny chance that she could inform the Ausländerbehörde that you are here illegally, if that is indeed the case. The police probably wouldn't care - they probably have more important things to do. I also sincerely doubt that the Ausländerbehörde would really follow it up - but you never know.

If you are in fact in possession of a valid residency permit and/or work permit, you have nothing to worry about. Let her threaten you.

...and how many hours?

My maths tells me that's about 2 and a half years. Like I say, you are not responsible for the wear and tear caused in the 23 months that she was there but you were not.

Kreisverwaltungsreferat. The place at Poccistrasse, where you registered at least should have been.


Does she have the bills for these costs or do you think she is making them up? Why can't you meet her and try to sort it out? If she has all bills documented (we, for example got now electricity bill for over 400 euros for four months of last year) and a bill from painitng company and has to pay that all alone, then it is understandlable that she tries to get some costs shared.

I simply did not know there names. HEHE. I had to register my address when I first moved here as the initial step in acquiring my Work Visa. So I have nothing to worry about in the legalities. I have 2 passport pages of stickers saying that I am here legally and has not expired yet.

Right, you're good. Don't worry about her. Without a contract she has nothing on you. If you feel like answering her, tell her that you are here legally and that her threats sound like blackmail, and that you have provided your lawyer with copies of these mails.

However, if I were you I would register my current address. That is in fact mandatory.

I do believe she has given me some amounts which are crrect and some which she has inflated. Before she told me 300 Euro for renovation costs. Then when I asked for a breakdown and stated I was not liable for certain things, she came back with different costs and the figure remained the same but incorporated fee's to make that 300 Euro, like a 50 Euro fee the landlord charged her for cleaning and then another 50 Euro for cleaning that she personally is charging me. This is outrageous as I cleaned my room thoroughly before leaving. In addition the charges went from 790 Euro to roughly 1000 Euro. So I can only assume that these costs are inflated.

In fact I know her landlord has charged her a considerable amount of money for damages her dog has done. For example the front door was to be replaced and a considerable amount of cleaning can only be due to the amount of dog hair scattered throughout the flat.

I would meet her but she is living out of Munich now and is not here regularly. Plus if I met her, I am afraid I would be charged with assault and battery for knocking some sense into her.

That's why you should agree to meet on your terms, in a public place. If she doesn't want to come into town, that is her problem. You can document your invitation to her and bring friends (witnesses) to that location proving she didn't show. In fact, make it the next three TT tuesdays. We will be there to restrain you.

I think this whole legal roommate thing is pretty common. I was sued once in New York because I left a situation with a non communicative person who wanted me to pay an extra month even though I gave two weeks notice, cleaned the room very well and had no contract. This person knew I was going away on business and when I got back I had a summons and a notice of the court ruling (in my favor) waiting for me.

Just make sure you are legaly right and don't worry about it. It's not personal- it's just a business transaction at this point.

Sorry, I still don't see why you are liable for any of this if you did not have a contract with her. It's certainly nice of you to want to help out, but if you lived there for 8 months and she for 31 months, she's obviously the person who caused most of the wear and tear to the apartment. You also say dog hair...was it your dog? If it was her dog, then forget it. I wouldn't pay a penny (or a € cent, for that matter).

No it was her big hairy beast. HEHE.

If she hasn't got your new address she can't do much, especially if she isn't in Munich.
But do make sure you register your change of address with the authorities.

Ignore her for now. If she hasn't got a contract she hasn't a leg to stand on.

koala: You've never heard of the Stadtbuch? Gettting someone's address is piss-easy.

NGB: Did you just rent a room or the entire apartment? If it was only a room then you're only responsible for that room plus shared areas and she has to prove it was you. There's no written contract between you and her so you have little legal responsibility outside of what damage she can clearly prove you caused. Her E-Mails stating different amounts would destroy her in a courtroom and it's possible the court would send that civil case over for criminal fraud prosecution.

Tell her to take a long walk off a short Brückenpfeiler.

woof.

stadtbuch no use, he already said he's not registered

I am registered just at the address I lived with her, not my new address.

As everyone noted, this is not a matter that would interest the police but you should still be very civil, even if you want to knock some sense into her. Many Germans own personal legal insurance. If she has it, its could be relatively easy for her to sue you for the money, which would be far more expensive for you in hassle and legal fees. If she doesn't know where you live/work then it'll be harder for her to chase you legally.

Register your address and take the whip hand. Remind her you're here legally and that you have already paid her what's necessary. If you like and/or feel its fair you can chip in more but it doesn't sound like you are legally obligated to do so. It might be *fair* to chip in a bit more, since rental move outs really are expensive here, i.e. even if you cleaned your room, you could share the cleaning costs for the common areas. But really, thats up to you.

Do not give this woman any further personal information and think carefully if you meet with her. As Profundo said you can make arrangement to meet with her but have witnesses, preferably german (speaking) witnesses should she decide to go the sue route.

Good luck!
jml

PS: PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: personal legal insurance is not very expensive and should be considered by all expats, *especially* if you are not comfortable with the German language and legal system. It takes a while to kick in after signing the contract though and it is not retroactive to my understanding.

BigDoggie
Of course I've heard of the Stadtbuch. And yes, if she really wants to she can get the address - once he's registered and once the book data is updated.

But there's no need to give her the address.

@koala & Baddoggie

This person's new address info. won't be in the Stadtbuch until it's next release in 2007 AND if they have not chosen to not have it listed when they registered their new address.

@NoGoingBack

When you reregister at your new address, make sure you choose the option to not have your info. published in the directory. There should be a checkbox somewhere near the bottom of the registration form. If your not sure where it is ask the people at the desk.

Anybody can write to the Einwohnermeldeamt stating a good reason and request your new address for a fee of € 5 (if it hasn't changed in the last 3 years). You can refuse the EWM the right to pass on your address but you need a very good reason for that.


You can also request to not be included in it.

I can only second this - very, very useful. Highly recommended. There is, however, a waiting period after starting the insurance and it is definitely not retroactive.

The fact is going to court for the amount that she wants will probably land up costing her more than the amount she wants from you. Going to court in Germany is a costly and timely affair that most lawers, unless it's a deep pockets case, will try to avoid and settle out of court if possible.
I would write back to her and say that you are consulting with your lawer and will get back to her as soon as possible. Call her bluff and she will probably back down.

Generally, the losing party ends up carrying the winning party's costs as well as his own.
@ NGB: In my opinion, the main tenant doesn't have a leg to stand on due to the total lack of a written contract. She not only has to prove the costs themselves but also your obligation to share them. Hammer that into her head (metaphorically speaking, of course) and tell her she's lucky to have received anything.
Are there written receipts on the rent which you paid? Can she prove that this was a rental relationship and not a personal favor? She herself told the Hausmeister that you were a friend staying over, the Hausmeister would be a witness on your side. She is up the creek without a paddle.

Found some info on the Mieterverein site stating that she as the main tenant has sole responsibility for all costs, i.e. she has to make sure that the rent is paid on time, that all damages are repaired etc etc etc.
As long as you haven't signed a separate agreement for the sublet, she is still responsible to fulfill her own tenancy agreement, i.e. renovate, pay rent etc.
To cut a long story short: she actually is obliged to pay all the costs herself and can't bother you.
The police won't give the issue a second thought as this is a civil case.
She might even get into trouble herself, if she has sublet the room without the landlord's consent or if it's not allowed in her own tenancy agreement.

This is all getting very out of hand.

If you think you may actually owe her some money, then agree a mutual friend, one someone unbiased, to mediate.

All 3 meet, go over the bills, come to a decision with said mediator present as a witness.

Pay her a couple of hundred euros & move on with your life.

I think the point of this is that he doesn't feel he owes her anything. A couple of hundred euros is a lot of money and would be playing into this woman's hands. She obviously hasn't got a leg to stand on so he should just move on with his life and let her amuse herself trying to get the police involved etc.

OK, you havn't had a contract with her and you weren't put into the contract she has with the landlord. You're fine! She has absolutly legal possibility to ask money of ya... she's just trying to rip you of. How did you pay your share to her? Transaction or cash? If cash, she for sure didn't put it into her tax-form, if transaction some people do, some people don't... that's defraud she can't threaten you with authorities, but actually maybe you could threaten her!

I was going to write something helpful, but then NoGoingBack started writing "HEHE" in the postings and I now find myself forced to walk on the other side of the street.

I agree with your HEHE take, JE.

Thanks for all your information and take on things. Will update you on what evolves.

you could also try to mention that you have spoken to your lawyer. usually back off then.

I'm not sure that anyone falls for this "spoken to my lawyer" line any more.

Tell her you are a lawyer...

I did not say I spoke to my lawyer. She is just a fruitcake. Her reply to my pointing out that I did not have a contract and that I am not liable for these things that were never once mentioned to me until she moved out and now wants some cash from me that I do not feel I should give her. i have already given her a bit more than I should have just to get her off my back but it is not working. She is still pressing for my address which I have gone to the KVR and changed and made it Private. She is now giving me this bit about verbal contracts are leagal in Germany, which I find as odd only because I never verbally agreed to pay any of these fee's because they were never even mentioned to me until now.

hope you got a receipt for the money you gave her