Loyalty test for Muslims in Germany

I found this: BBC News - German 'Muslim test' stirs anger


Personally, if the report is in context, I think it is a great idea!!

As it says in the report, it's merely pandering to the tabloid-level stereotypes of muslims.
Why is that a good idea, in your opinion?

oddly, 3 out of the 4 questions, and in some quarters, all 4 questions, would be equally illuminating when it came to some fundamentalist Christians.


How many of these questions does a person have to get "wrong" to be denied citizenship in a modern Democracy? I'm hoping one, because number 4 would finally get of rid Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell for us. Of maybe the right answer is to tell your son that he's going to hell? Dunno...

In an odd way, I'd kinda be in favor of these, as well, so long as they're applied equally. Though that's an oversimplification of my thoughts on these questions.

umm... so if those are some of the questions it'd be easy to say one thing even if you believe another.
yeah i think woman are equal and should do as she pleases in regard to her husband and he better not beat her! that's horrible!

it's easy to know what the desired answer is and say it-even if you do not believe/follow it

Government shouldn't be able to control your beliefs, but they most definitely should be able to control what you practice when it comes to interactions with other human beings. I am reasonably sure that the female Muslim community has a collective idea of the minimum standards with which they accept as part of their faith and what constitutes an abuse of that faith by the male members of the Muslim community. That being said, extremists in the Baptist, Mormon and other religious communities also practice some demoralizing faith based shit.

umm... couldn't you even say most religions practice some demoralizing things- in general or at least are intolerante of something that general society thinks is fine?

Well, the report says that some believe it is pandering to the tabloid stereotype but 76% of Germans believe it is correct.

I believe it is correct as it will make people realise that when they come to a different culture and that they will be free to live here but they have to accept the culture of the country that they live in. They will have to accept that "honour killings" are illegal and if one happens then it has to be dealt with by the police and not by the families involved. Accept beating of your wife is a criminal offence and not acceptable. Enforced marriage is not acceptable etc etc.
The idea, to me, seems to be to single out the people that would accept the aforementioned as the norm, thus enforcing their beliefs upon their adopted country and making them stay in a their own country that finds these practices acceptable. These people are in the minority but we can do without them here.
I posted on a thread (I forget which) about a Tunisian lady I knew that would explain why I have this view

@mere: disapproving and being intolerant of are a little bit different. I mean, it's one thing not to attend the gay pride parade, but quite another to pull some of the shit Fred Phelps does, for example.

@canaryman: like I said, if we can deport Christian fundies as well based on their answers, I'm kinda for these--think we ought to take 'em up over in the states. If they give the "wrong" answer, well, let's ship 'em off to some place where they'll be a little closer to holy ground.

yes disapproving and intolerance are 2 diff things. i'm well aware. but how much can you actually say how one lives his life? how is the the 'wrong' answer decided upon? i know these issues/questions have come up b/f on TT, but. isn't that what the questions being asked by the gov't doing? attempting to dictate how ones lives and saying if it is correct or not? i'm not going into how it should be decided b/c then we have to go into well how are laws decided and if you do not agree w/ the law then do you have to uphold it, but... yeah...

i agree if you live in a country you have to respect the culture of that country, but there is a diff b/t resepecting and accepting it. and cant you do both w/o 100% giving up your own (and yes i know they aren't saying that the person must forego his own culture if coming here, just certain practices)

@mere: Maybe. Personally, I'm tired of the Crusades at this point, and I think everyone who wants to fight them should be allowed to--elsewhere. In a democracy, however, one of the foundational beliefs is that everyone is equal as regards the law and the opportunities available to them. Doesn't fit the reality all the time, but it is an important principle. Personally, I'm at that point that I don't think it such a bad idea to exclude those who can't grasp that core principle. In fact, I think by excluding them, we'd be respecting their choice to live in another manner. Let 'em figure it out on their own time scale, following their own learning curve. If the fundamentalists of all religions want to live like they did in the Bible/Koran/whatever, I say, let's build the place for them, and let them live as they wish.

okay

@Canaryman

Here is a link to the complete test for those interested (in German, so your German had better be up to scratch). How do you think a conservative German would answer to some of the following questions in the test?

1.2.
3. 4.
5.6.
7.
I am very sure that many Germans would be denied German citizenship on account of their honest answers to those questions.

I think the questions are a great idea.

If I am assuming correctly, in Islam it is wrong to lie, which is no guarantee, but a weak basis anyway for getting them to spell out there answers.

MB and I am absolutely positive that you are wrong. Anyway, why are you reading the press and letting it influence you? You told me off for doing that!

If you approve of honour killings, being able to beat your wife, enforced marriage, approval, if not involvement in terrorism then of course you will disapprove of the tests. I wonder if the test asks if women should be allowed to drive and if "no" would be a positive or negative answer.
How did you get on with your swot on Charles Martel Oct 10 732, battle of Poiters (the one about 360 years before the first crusade??

PG. Agreed, bung all zealouts of any disposition on an island so they can all worship and kill each to their hearts content.

@Canaryman

Hey Canarydude, it's Saturday afternoon and beautiful outside. Just popped in for some pm's. Not gonna hang around here to talk politics with you. But I am very much of the opinion that many Germans would answer wrongly(for being entitled to citizenship) to those 7 questions I took from the 30. That was my only point. You never seem to understand what I really mean with anything I post. You should get to know Ulysses. You two are very similar in that respect.

Oh dear, not someone else with a differing opinion to yourself...scandalous

enjoy your day outside, I am going to watch the rugby and then go skiing tomorrow.
(I may let my wife go and do the shopping in my car too)

I look at this as a great thing for all parties involved: citizens and immigrants. Yeah!!!

If the country assumes tolerance, they have to repeat the doctrine throughout the micro-environments of the society (pubs, restaurants, parties, etc.) and see how they apply to everyone.

This is a great thing.

@Canaryman
*sigh*
I honestly don't give a flying f*ck whether or not you have a different opinion to me. And you once again took my answer as an attack to your obvious different opinion. I really really don't care. It is also not meant personally. I just believe something else than you do. You can believe what you want to and it seems that your believes are very contra-Muslim from all you have already written. That's fine. My opinion on Muslims doesn't matter. But fair is fair and I think it is very important to try and remain fair. That test would only be fair if Germany would make it compulsory for EVERYBODY, not just Muslims.
Now I am finally going to go play in the snow. Thanks, you and your wife have a great day too!

you cant control people who are german, but everyone else is fairgame in my opinion. (as in people immigrating). i really dont see why people come to germany though. its so bleeding hard to get citizenship. i would go to another eu country and get citizenship or at least be assured my kids would get it.

MB. You poor, naive thing, you. I would like to thank you (once again) for letting me have my own point of view despite your obvious annoyance that I disagree with you (hence your expletive).

Like I said. It is for routing out people like the Tunisian girl I knew who stated:

1. "I feel sorry for people in Germany, they are all so godless"
2. "What is greater than giving your life for your god and belief?" (this was in answer to someone in our group had a rant about the suicide bombers in Spain)
3. "I must go home as my husband says so"...why?..."My husband says I must so see you tomorrow and goodbye!"
4. "please come into town with me, please"...(to a girl in our group) "My husband says I cant go into town alone and I must not be seen with a man as I will be in serious trouble, please come into town with me"

If you want people like the Tunisian lady and her husband to live here, totally ignore any customs here and to bring their views, condoning suicide bombers, enforced marriages, honour killings, then I suggest you go to their country and abide by those customs.

I think I would stand behind canarayman.

This all seems pretty right and seems like it would send a ripple of self-examination throughout the cross-section of society, albeit in some circles (read: Stammtisch) this might be skewed or incorrectly represented by people who don't read much.

My problem with this thread is that the title perpetuates the "dubbing" of "The Muslim Test", when, in fact, the test should be called something more like the "civil stability test".

I think it would be good for all immigrants to take this, and eventually phasing in where local Piefk... err, Germans should take it just for reference purposes when they renew their passports.

I know it is a little big brother in the latter respect, but this could be called a service by the German government to other countries.

Rubbish. The Germans should take it, too. Make it fair. If they fail, out they go.

Careful, they used to have something like that (Arierprüfung)

Yeah, I know--and I'm sure the wording would change considerably if German citizens had to take the same test...because I think if they were honest, a surprising number would fail

...assuming, of course, I've correctly identified the 'right' answers to these questions.

Well, as much as I'd like to think if we sent all the zealots off to the moon with as many guns and hand-grenades as they could carry with them, it'd solve anything, I suspect it wouldn't. In fact, thinking about it, given the new locale, they might even find some common ground to work from--while those who stayed behind would find something else to kill each over other. Oh, the irony. I'm sure there's a best-selling novel in that idea, somewhere...

@PG
Have you checked out U.S. naturalization requirements? Comparatively speaking, I'm sure you'll agree there's nothing exceptional about the content of the German test. Whether Germans would actually fail it or not, isn't really relevant in my opinion, though I personally think that they would perform more than adequately...

The fact of the matter is that today there is a major cough, ahem... "issue" with Muslim integration in Europe and what the German authorities have implemented will invariably will help to weed out individuals who are not ready, yet in any case, to integrate fully into German (see Western), society.
It's a win-win situation not just for the German government, but also for moderate Muslims who will undoubtedly benefit from having people with questionable values nipped at the bud and possibly educated before enjoying the benfits of EU citizenship.

I don't see any "thought police" questions in the US requirements... am I missing something?
I see questions on US history and political institutions. And a test of the ability to speak English.
But nothing on attitudes to homosexuality or the like.

I feel my point was missed. Wouldn't be the first time. Carry on.

so i just looked at sample US hist questions... hmm i managed to get 2 wrong after going through heaps of them- oops!

I, too, failed to see the questions pertaining to beating one's wife or having a tolerant attitude toward your daughter's dating a black man or your son wanting to move in with another man. I suppose, at a stretch, the first could arguably be covered with the proviso that one agrees to abide by the law of the land (though there's some wiggle room there, methinks), the last two, a different matter. Again, I can think of many, many Americans, some my personal acquaintances, that would not pass this test if they were honest.

@Canaryman

It deeply touches my old, reptilian heart to read about your concern for the well-being of women, of which I happen to be one as well. It breaks my heart to shatter your world view, but I fortunately know many Muslim people who do not match your stereotype view. Women, who decide about their own fate, who work, date whom they want to, go out, dress as they please.

You are right about injustice, terror and intolerance happening in the name of Islam. You are also right to be refering to false tolerance towards these people in an earlier post. I agree with you fully. But I don't agree with you judging a whole religion on behalf of a couple of weirdos. All religions have their weirdos, freaks and fanatics. Christianity as well. You can also not compare the state of Muslim society directly to the state of our society. Most Muslim countries are riddled with war-related poverty. People who have empty stomachs and have fear at night act differently to others, like us, whos main concern is the crap Munich weather(as a silly example). Their society will function differently to ours.

You will do well to also look at the place of women in Europe. Remember that only in 1975 women were allowed to vote in Switzerland for example. My own mother was only allowed to have her own bank account for the first time in the 80's, although she went to work every day. Our lovely Christian world. Or look at Sweden. In Sweden compulsory sterilisations was still being carried out on handycapped people till 1976. A role model society! Or look at the current jobmarket situation for women in Germany. Women who want to have children can forget about finding fixed employment. These are just a few examples taken from our Christian society. And I am not even going into the topic of Bible bashers finding it completely ok to go bomb other countries whos people did literally nothing against them.

So once again, and I really have nothing more to say, stop thinking that all Muslims are like that!

I worked in High Wycombe and Slough so dont try rolling out "I know many asians" as so do I.

If read my opinion, and that is all it is, then I have said that the test appears to be routing out the extremists not anyone that happens to be muslim, christian etc.

"Handycapped"...well, as you cannot spell the word you should not try to pretend you are an expert in the subject...Try your cut and paste button when using wikipedia.

Anymore recipes??

@MB

Perhaps you should look at yourself seeing as you seem to be the common denominator. It's quite easy to see what Canaryman is getting at and what you're getting at and the fact that you're going past one another. Basically, you're against discriminating against Muslims. So is Canaryman. But we should get rid of both the Christian and Muslim fucknuts. You both agree on that. In the ideal world.

In the real world, you can only get rid of the immigrants. How do you get rid of native Germans? Where do they go to? I personally disagree with your point of view on "conservative Germans" though. You have a very Berlinerisch take on everything Bavarian. There happens to be a rivalry between the two cities and a lot of what gets said about the other cities is often just not true. You need to get out of your stereotype. You're allowing it make your life here miserable since you're looking for confirmations of your prejudices and ignoring the contradictions. Conservative is a very relative concept. I would say "conservative" here is very liberal compared to conservative in South Africa and quite possibly the UK and USA too. I don't think you'll find one hardcore Catholic who will ban his daughter from marrying a Protestant or his son from having a boyfriend. He won't be happy about it, but he won't shoot him.

So, I agree with the principle driving the test. I believe the onus is on immigrants to integrate themselves and not the other way around. That was actually the point Fortuyn was trying to make in Holland and if you've ever been to Holland or France, the UK, Italy, Belgium and Spain you'll understand. In fact, anyone from berlin should understand too. Turks who've been here 30 years and still can't speak German. Whose fault is that?

I believe a better test - and I believe this is the case in anycase - should be along the lines of the American one, iow, it tests the applicant's German proficiency since the fact that he/she can speak German shows they have made the effort to integrate themselves. It would also provide the basis for integrating even more. A basic knowledge of German culture and history would also be a good idea. The questions regarding sexuality, religion and political persuasion are daft since anyone can lie, but you can't lie about your ability to speak German.

My 2 (Euro) cents

Anyone who moves to a foreign land and attempts to impose their "beliefs" on the residents of the host country do not belong there. When moving to a foreign land you must be prepared to live like the native people and obey their laws, or do not go. While many are relocating to escape oppressive regimes or bad economic situations, they must accept that they need to assimilate - and the government of the host country should do all it can to help the assimilation process. In the reverse, I cannot move to Saudi Arabia or Syria and expect to live my life the same way as I do here in Germany; I would certainly be arrested or beaten by angry mobs who object to my "infidel" ways. Therefore, I do not go there.

I certainly do not accept any religion or country that opresses women, advocates violence, preaches hatred against other religions or nations, or engages in barbaric punishments. The German government has every right to try to keep this way of thinking out of Germany, whether home-grown or imported. In fact, I object to any religion telling me what I should or should not do.

On a related subject, I think it is absolutely nuts to even think about bringing Turkey, a nation that is 98% Muslim (and not even technically IN Europe), into the heavily "Christian" EU. While the Turkish are the most western-leaning Muslim nation, it has its share of radicals who would then be free to roam about Europe at will. Until the Turks have controlled their radical factions (as well as their economic situation), then there should be no discussion. I think the idea of Turkey as an EU member is being pushed by the USA who needs Turkey as a "buffer" between the west and the middle east. If left to a vote of the EU people, I would guess that it would be voted down by a wide margin. But the EU doesn't really let the people vote, do they?

I believe the "melting pot" idea is a great one, and tolerance should be foremost in our minds. Go ahead and have your strange religious customs, but if you want to do anything against the laws of your adopted country, then you should be arrested or deported. When in Rome, obey the Roman law, or get the hell out.

Thank you for your thoughtful and coherent responses.

2 cents spent

Shaky Jake. Excellent post. That is exactly what I have been trying to say but not as eloquently as yourself.
I stated that I have no problems with anyone living anywhere as long as they accept the rules of the country that they live in and do not expect their adopted country to adapt their customs, beliefs and laws.
I would not go and live in a lot of countries because I do not accept their laws. I do not like some of the laws and rules here but I knew about them before I arrived and I accept that as I live here I have to abide by them.

Fab! that will save on bullets, come the revolution.

Just kiddin
kinda

Oh alright, let the extremist in. Women (especially with funny northern accents) can stay at home, be beaten if they "displease" but, importantly...will not be allowed to drive!!!

(only kidding, a little)

I can't drive anyway, so that won't bother me.
I'm green, me, nicely.

Exactly!!!

I would never dream of going to Amsterdam and telling them they cant smoke weed, eat shrooms and hump prostitutes.

It would be rude.

<--TBFB hiding dopey eyes in the dam.

When the test was first introduced in BW, it was explicitly only for Muslim immigrants who wished to obtain German citizenship. Only after a lot of bad publicity and pressure, did BW decide to extend it to all immigrants wishing to obtain German citizenship.

Anyway it's a total waste of time and money. Anyone who is going to go to all the trouble of applying for German citizenship will surely just learn the "correct" answers to the questions, and tell the examiner what he wishes to hear. Typical political Aktionismus.

@MB
First off you're not going to be 'shattering' anyones world view anytime soon with spelling like that, and secondly why would you assume that you can try to sprinkle in a few uninspired metaphors into the mush of your liberal whinings and expect all of us to buy into the fact that you are some kind of exhausted authority on the matter who just can't seem to get us open up to the realites of everyday life for muslim women.. though Im sure that muslim women themselves can rest their chadored heads a little easier tonite knowing that they have such a capable ambassador explaining 'how it really is' on their behalf.
Thirdly, props to Shaky Jake, who gently extracted the points that were as wrong as ariel sharon in a bikini. nice.

@Surferinthecold

Do you actually have a point of view on this matter? Or do you just want to diss everyone? And, by the way, if you're going to have a go at someone's spelling, please make sure your's and your punctuation are also in order. It's "tonight", not "tonite" and the above post was actually good by your shitty, spelling and punctuation standards. Pot calling the kettle black if you don't mind me saying so.

No I just want to 'diss' everyone and while I'm back in the US practising Amerrrican englishh I will let Arsenio Hall know that you're keeping his catch phrases alive and well here in Munich.

also I may have also added that I agree with Shaky Jake's points.. remember to put your bifocals on and read next time.*wink*

totaly agree. like the american immigration form. "are you entering the country to perform acts of terrorism" how many of the 9/11 guys crossed the yes box i wonder?

Thanks. Didn't know it was from him. I am a better person now.


Indeed, you may have. That's better. I knew there was a point hidden in the diatribe somewhere.

How many of the 9/11 hijackers were applying for US citizenship? None I believe.

Terrorism and Muslim integration are two separate issues...

By the way, if this test is as easy as just filling in the "correct" answers, what's all the hoopla about? Is it the usual BBC politically correct pontification or is it maybe that some of these questions are difficult to answer honestly for an "opiniated" immigrant?

This test questions peoples beliefs not their actions. What a person believes shouldn't be the business of anyone (incl. the government) except the individual. "Die Gedanken sind frei" threfore I find such a test unethical across the board.

I think a person has the right to believe whatever they choose, if they choose to put this belief into practice and this practice breaks the law of the country they are living in they should be prosecuted. If not, the government should stay out.

And if they break the rules, they should be stripped of their citizenship and sent packing back to where they came from.

@ER

In this day and age I can't agree with that statement. We need to ensure that immigrants are fully willing and capable of integrating into Western society, there's no two ways about it.

@Ulysses
Yes, but the problem is that that never actually happens.

I love it when the Anglophones start yabbering on about integration and language tests and the like, really I do.
Some of the same people (although not all, I hasten to add) will brag in the Irish bar about how they've been here years and not learnt any more than basic German because, well - they don't need to, do they? They mix mainly with ex-pats anyway.