Icy cycle paths and double standards

For heaven's sake, chill OUT, people! You've been cooped up inside too long.

Of course a person should not have to walk in, or pick up, glass on the pedestrian path (which I call a sidewalk.) It's in nobody's interest for a dog or person to be cut up just for the principle of staying on "their own" walkway.

Everyone who bikes for transportation is sometimes also a pedestrian. I think there needs to be a little more tolerance and understanding from both sides that sometimes a pedestrian might have to veer into the bike lane, or vice versa.

I learned in my very early days in Munich that there are a lot of bikers and motorists who just like to honk or ding their bells at people. It makes their day when someone else does something technically wrong, so they can reprimand them. These people do not need to be apologized to. They don't want your explanation - they just want to vent their spleen.

Angry cyclists should keep in mind that EmmaC COULD have just kicked the glass into the cycling lane and gone on her merry way ...

An average Munich cyclist thinks he is doing the world a wonderful favour by not polluting the air and is choosing a fit and healthy way to get from A to B that is way better than anyone else's.
An average Munich dog-owner thinks their dog is more valuable than a human being, and although sometimes being more intelligent than its owner, it doesn't need to go on a leash and it can shit anywhere it chooses and jump up on anyone it chooses. It can even be taken into rstaurants where it can roam freely around sniffing other diners' feet.

Both these types of people think they are great and superior to everyone else so I can see why they would come to territorial blows over cycle paths/pavements.

The only good people in this whole equation are the car-owners. They don't annoy anyone and if anyone annoy them they can always run them over.

I think the dog-owners and the cycle owners should kill eachother and do the rest of us a favour.

Obviously I see the funny side of your post. But seriously, if it bothered people so much they would petition to have the laws regarding dogs in Munich changed. Currently, dogs are allowed in restaurants, stores, etc, except where the establishment specifically bans them. Obviously dogs are not allowed in supermarkets.

And to "Wibble", sorry that I "missed the point". Sounded like a bunch of reactionary bs, if you ask me. If you were trying to be funny, it didn't come across.

How long have you been in Munich or having you been driving with your eyes closed... I am also a car owner and the drivers here scare the shit out of me!!!

Do you really take the public transport?

I usually bike coz it's a great way to exercise, free and gets you places. But this week, the weather forecast said "snow" so I bought a weekly MVV card. Many mornings & evenings, I almost could not get off my destination because it's sardine-packed; last night, on my way to OEZ, a smelly alcohol & cigarette-reeking man sat opposite me; on my way back, a nervy guy who looks like he'll pounce on me any minute! TBH, I always grumbled about having to bike around but after this week, I'm praying for no-more-snow or rain so I can stop sharing & squeezing around with strange people.


I don't hate dogs like gideon but I've encountered similar situation. Once, a woman in front of me fell off her bike because a small dog ohne leash decided to change its "route" and crossed the bike's! She told the owner to be careful & put the dog on leash only to be retorted with ugly remarks. Whenever I see dogs, I put on my brakes...

nough said, you obviously have alot of emotional attatchment, and you'll interpret everything i say as wrong as you cant see the grin on my face. but dont forget your knocking all cyclists just because of one idiot. as you say i've been here a long time, and i'm used to germans yelling at you for any reason that they feel you've done wrong. suggest you do the same.

Valuable lifestyle advice for many men out there.

Seriously, if someone's dog comes up to me in a restaurant and starts sniffing around my feet, I boot it hard, but discretely, it never comes back. I'd prefer to boot the irresponsible owners though but I'd probably get arrested.

BTW, Wibble wasn't trying to be funny, he was funny. You seem to be the one being reactionary. Get with it please.

@ EmmaC You're scared by Munich driving? You better not move to Rome or London then!

@EmmaC

I see that noone here has answered your question about how to get out of the way of those crazy cyclists.

I am sometimes a cyclist and sometimes a pedestrian. If you suddenly find yourself in the way of a cyclist and you're first reflex will be to jump out of the way. But, if the cyclist is really close, he will have probably already started some type of evasive move and you will probably jump right into his path. I find the best thing to do, as a pedesrian, is to stop exactly where I am and let the bike go around me. Inconsiderate - maybe. Safer - most likely.

I feel a flounce coming on...

I have crashed more due to drunks wandering about on Leopoldstr than any other reason.

The sooner someone invents teleportation chambers the better. As long as they sort out the bugs first - don't want to turn out like Jeff Goldblum in The Fly.

I was not knocking them for one doing wrong, like I said, I lost count this morning...
And I also know, I have been here for 5 years and normally can turn a blind "ear" to the rude insults that are thrown at you on a daily basis...just for some reason this morning it pissed me off more than usual..
Hey I wasn't interpreting what you said as wrong, I just tried to be diplomatic in making my point and felt that you were insulting all the dogs out there...Again Sorry if I offended anyone. It was not my aim.

Ah Wibble, but then we'd all get even fatter due to not having to move and would probably become wedged stuck in the chambers and only part-teleporting leaving limbs around the city (or something).

Cheers for the advice...

As an all year cyclist, I could rant on about this subject for a long time, but I won't

I agree there are cyclists that go onto the pavement and ride like arseholes and they are.. well.. arseholes. There are also cyclists that can share the pavement in a civilised manner (going at walking pace, not dingalinging bells, not running people down, always giving the pedestrians right of way etc)

But my main gripe is that of some pedestrains and some dog owners that blindly walk out onto, or let ther dog-on-a-lead walk across, the cycle path without checking for cyclists first. All I have to say about this is treat the cycle path like a road. Would you jump out onto, walk aimlessly onto or let your dog-on-a-lead run across a road without first checking for oncoming cars? Why should it be any different for a cycle path? If it is an emergency and you have to jump to avoid something on the ground, why not just stop, look, then walk around the obstacle as you would if it was a road you were right next to? OK there are circumstances where there is no option other than to jump across quickly, but that should only be from a large obstruction like a group of people or a large object moving at you quickly (for example) or something that any oncoming cyclist *should* be aware of also.

As for the icy weather. You should not cycle beyond your ability. If you are able to cycle in these conditions, fine. If you are not then find another way.

Obviously there are arsehole cyclist who think they can do what they like, when they like and how they like. I am not condoning these. When you add the ice into the mix with these people I agree there will be problems.

I love cycling to work in this weather (well not this week, it's been miserably wet, and yesterday was certainly a deceptively icy refrozen slush that looked ok but was killer - a cause of lots of bike accidents and pedestrian falls I am sure), have only fallen off once so far this year (in a 'safe place' ) and am not going to stop cycling. I will however continue to be careful, courteous and ride within my limits.

OK, so I could rant after all, I will stop now

My point was more that why is it ok for the cyclists to use the footpath when the circumstances are difficult but not ok for walkers to use the cycle paths under difficult circumstances...Surely that is why one is called a cycle path and one is called a footpath...I suppose it's the same reason as a lot of things here...double standards...

this week I'm car-less so am using public transport (though in summer I'd normally cycle) got a 3 day ticket today for the Innenraum for 11€ think that's very reasonable...trams go every 6 minutes at rush hour times they never seem to be so packed. mind you this morning I took the UBahn and agree with you about the sardine packed description. back to trams tomorrow!

I* dont have a problem with pedestrians using the cycle path (or the road). I only have a problem with them doing so without looking first to make sure there is no cyclist (or car) bearing down on them. This happens AllTheBloodyTime™.

* I can only speak for myself though. if others have a problem with it then they are inconsiderate

On this occasion Tom can speak for me as well.

and me

Here, here, Tom17.

You speak my mind.

Cyclists who use the footpaths or streets in this weather are pansies. Develop some handling skills, people. Take your bike out on some trails in the summer and learn what it feel like when your bike moves in an unexpected way, and learn how to control it. Since the Great Hamilton Transit Strike of 1998 I have ridden rain or shine, snow, ice storm, hail, thunderstorm and tornado and have fallen once, on a long downhill off camber corner with black ice. Since moving to Munich I have found it useful to buy tires with metal studs, but only because I ride a cross bike which has a more forward position and is therefore less stable on the unforgiving ice ruts. On a mtn bike or a city bike there would be no problem at all.

I fear for you all.

Shame they aren't actually street legal though.
StVZO §36
Police can pull you for studded tyres as they can damage the public transit surface (which is why you can't fit them to a car for road use either in Germany). Off-road you can use them, but not on cycle paths, pavements or roads.

I think the real problem is selfishness. I find Munich to be a really selfish city sometimes. It is always "Ich! Ich! Ich! - Me before the community". I think everyone just has to be more considerate to others... including smiling (what is it with everybody here?) I am mostly a pedestrian/U/S-bahner but I bike in the summer months as well. You have to look at both sides.
Pedestrians have to look before crossing the bike line and bikers shouldn't ring like crazy when there is no need (some bikers love to ring like crazy as soon as the see someone on the horizon in THEIR bike lane) cyclists should be extra careful when using the footpath and not drive more than 20k/h or so, staying in control.
Finally there are the drivers of cars (I don't see why people need cars in Munich but that is a different story). Drivers should also be careful and considerate of pedestrians because they are playing with the health and life of both pedestrians and bikers! One good example is by the V-Markt where there effectively a crossing with an island in the middle but no official zebra on the road and it can be pooring rain and full of cars and no driver is considerate enough to stop or slow down for a few PRECIOUS seconds to let someone cross.

@FearLES
Agree with you on all counts.

don't agree with your other story about people not needing cars in Munich. the plain fact is some people DO! even if you yourself don't. grr.

About dingalinging...

I ring my bell, a lot. I ring it early if there is someone on the cycle path who is obviously not aware of what they are doing or if they are showing no signs of moving off. Surely better to do it early rather than when you are 2 metres behind them and they don't get a chance to see you and move out of your way, non?

It doesn't really matter anyway, as 9 times out of ten they ignore the ringing bell anyway until you are 2 metres behind them and then they look all startled that you are there.

And then the not-ringing the bell option is full of people plainly not getting out of the way and getting startled when you are saying "entschuldigung bitte".

Whether you ring from afar, ring from close up or don't ring at all, there is always someone who disagrees with your behaviour. What is a cyclist to do, run them over?

Dont see the bell ringing as an angry "get off my cycle path" gesture but see it for what it is - a warning that there is an approaching cyclist - and take heed. Of course if you choose to ignore the bells, you will have angry cyclists on your hand and rightly so as you should not be wandering aimlessly on the cycle path, unaware of oncoming cycle traffic ,in the first place. Just the same as you would not be wandering on a road like that

I am one of those annoying lefty cyclist guys aren't I... Well I promise you thats not me. I used to drive a car at any opportunity I had, even if it was only a 5 min walk to the shops Oh and I missssss driving, just not in Munich.

Oh Gideon relax!!! Did you know that injuries in Hospitals go up 23% just over the winter months and 68% of those injuries are caused on Streets due to iced pathways -

THERFORE ITS NOT SAFE !!!
THEREFORE ITS NOT CHEAP!!! - The STATE pays for the stupidity and logic thinking
THEREFORE ITS NOT ENVIROMENTALLY FRIENDLY!!! - As the council has to lay more salt ont he streets which is so bad for the water ways

and just to add to my SLAMMING, you dont see padestrians using the streets when its snowing to hard or iced up do you??? Us people change our shoes - Maybe you should change a tyre!!!

Well glad thats off my chest...

@Moonboot

Do you actually need a car or just like the convenience of having one?

I need it.

Umm... yes, lots

Agree with you. When I arrived in Munich first I didn't have a bell on my bike and used to try the slow approach followed by breaking to make a bit of noise. I got given out to quite a few times by pedestrians saying I was cycling up on them and startling them and that I should have a bell.

Most germans seem to interpret the ring as just a warning, like you say. It generally seems to be the english speakers who interpret it as an aggressive "get out of the way". Cultural difference I reckon.

That's not to say that there aren't quite a few asshole cyclists who think their rights are above those of pedestrians. I work on the principle of rights is inverse to weight, power or damage causing potential.

I'm sure there's a logical distinction to be made between a 1500 kg car trundling through town on cleared roads with chains on the tires and a 70 kg rider/bike combination with 2mm rounded metal studs on the tires. Not that the German police are prone to making logical distinctions...

Anyway, like all law it's open to interpretation. According to my translation:
"Tires or other bearing surfaces may not have unevenness, which can damage a firm roadway; iron tires must have rounded off edges. Nails must be let in."

My "iron tires" have rounded off edges; they are not sharp. And they're studs, not nails. If I ride over a road I challenge any police officer to find damage to the asphault that can unambiguously be attributed to my tire studs. Heck, they barely make an impression on the relatively softer ice, and only when I slide across it. I'd have to work really hard to make the tires slide on bare pavement!

It is so refreshing to see that I am not the only one who becomes aggitated with the unfriendly and rude behaviour of people in this city. It's such a great place and I don't understand why there are so many angry people around. I know life is far from perfect all the time and everyone has off days but
it must be hard work frowning so much and it feels so much better to smile.
I try and try to stay friendly to people here as much as possible but sometimes people do try your patience
Sometimes there is just no reasoning with people and that was the whole point of this post to start with...

Sometimes the better people have it the more miserable they are as the more they expect. And if you expect too much you will normally be disappointed.

A little ring from a cyclist doesn't bother me, it's for BOTH of our safety. My problem is the (likely German) cyclists that believe in rules no matter what and ring CONSTANTLY when you are avoiding an obstacle on the sidewalk (whether it's other pedestrians, glass, dog poo, a parked car, etc.) and you are obviously going to return to the pedestrian side right after.
As for a needing a car there are likely some people that need a car (like taxi drivers or delivery people or if you have to commute from outside Munich) but I would believe it likely that such people make up less than half of all the drivers here.
With the cost of having a car (including "hidden" costs like maintenance, insurance, parking), traffic and then finally finding a place to park I don't see the point.

Yeah, I wish more people would give advance warning. A few months ago I was walking along the pavement and heard a bell ring literally right behind me - before I was even able to turn my head, some bloke shot past me, skidding out into the road, and slammed into a lamppost. Now admittedly there was no cycle path for him to go on, but it was a long stretch of pavement, so he'd had plenty of time to see me. As it was, I just shook my head and said 'twat' before walking off, but if he'd hit me instead of that lamppost I'd have been seriously pissed off (assuming I'd still been conscious).

But IMO the real problem isn't the cyclists, the dog owners, or even the drivers - it's selfish idiots, who are too used to being able to do whatever they like without fear of some pissed-off stranger kicking the living crap out of them.

My bell was broken for a while, and so I would belt out the lyrics to "All of Me" from afar.

This had the great effect of the "whoa!" factor.

A little anthropology theory put to good use.

Well if we are suddenly on the subject of rude Mingas (Mingas meaning Müncheners' and not MINGAS like in England ) id just like to add that I fell on the street yesterday and that nobody stopped to help me up.

Then a work colleague (German and a Minga) came into work today in tears as she also stacked it - was rushed to hospital because of her neck but she was more pissed off that everyone walked passed her and not only cars drove by her just missing her!

What’s wrong with these people...

Such things happen everywhere in the world. People just don't want to get involved. On the other hand I have also seen accidents here where people have stopped to help.

Ahhh lovely cycling weather today

Nice grippy packed snow, not too cold (from around 9:15 at least), sunny. Fantastic!

@Emma C
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