Thread title grammar, which isn't that important,

Okay, this is seriously anal of me, and if it's just the usual suspects doing their usual part to make the grammar nazis insane, I apologize for this thread in advance. That said, there are at least two recent threads (Florists which deliver, Words which your kids invented) with the non-restrictive pronoun 'which' in them, and I'm just concerned that it's the work of moderators. If it is, please cut it out? Surely there is no non-essential information in those two thread titles? Or maybe I'm wrong? If I am, I'm sure one of my fellow grastapos will pull me up, but...

Yeah, I know. Useless waste of prime internet real estate. But I just had to make the fact that I am being driven slowly insane by those thread titles a matter of public knowledge.

(...jesus--teaching English for all of 5 months, and I'm already developing peeves...)

so it should be "that"? That's wot i wood rite init!?

btw, congrats on becoming the second most anal person here, hopefully they'll all hate u more than they do me...

if it's any consolation p_g then I think you are technically correct - not that I had noticed myself or am particularly stressed about it! (although now you've mentioned it will undoubtedly bug me)

Somebody needs to find a florist which delivers and send you a bouquet before you bust.

Yeah, I'm just wondering if peeves itch as much as hives do.

Whose sending I flowers than?

That's funny papa because I was thinking the exact same thing earlier today. Should be "that"

Warning: not Papa_G safe!

Or at least just hand him a cold flannel which will cool his feverish forrid.


ha ha, I said forrid!

who could possibly hate P_G?

ACK! That's the other one: "16 novels which defined America". My worst bloody nightmare. And I even posted on that one, and cringed every time I read it.

It had to be said...but...carry on...

Everything you ever wanted to know about which/that:
World Wide Words: Which Vs. That

To be honest, I think it's a pretty minor detail in comparison to all the speling misteaks to bee found hear.

Granted. Minor--but bloody prominent, and that's the real fuss. Don't even have to click on those threads to have my sensitive grammarian skin chafed...

Well, kudos to you PG for caring.

Thanks - PG it was bothering the flip out of me as well.

No kudos due. More like it was that one bloody mosquito trapped in the room with me that I ignored the first 15 times it buzzed into my ear canal, then boxed the hell out of my own ear trying to kill, and finally gave up and turned on the light and hunted the bastard down. Of course I care--it's 4 in the bloody morning and I haven't gotten a wink of sleep. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

I'm helping a few people in english as a side job here and came across this issue. I couldnt explain when you should use which vs. that, so I looked it up, emailed old english teachers and now have become thoroughly anal about it. dont worry, you're not the only obsessive person here.

People which use words like non-restrictive pronouns need to be shot.

@ER: I've got much better than that. What are your thoughts on performative utterances?

Bring on the guns. I'll take 'em out with Strunk & White's.

papa geno, you make my skin crawl.

ER: Now that is H-O-T. Whyncha come on over to my place so's we can get seriously ungrammatical together?

Ok, since one of those is mine I will gladly change it. "Words invented by your kids" - no problem.
But what about the florists? Are they considered a person? Would "Florists who deliver" not be more elegant than "Florists that deliver"? Or should the title be changed to "Flower-shops offering delivery service" as it generally is not the florist him/herself who bounds around with the flowers but a delivery person. Once you start on one point of grammar you'll find yourself facing a Sisyphus task. Which I suppose is why small items such as these are tolerated while misplaced apostrophes generally do get corrected as the meaning of the title can change with them.

flower shops is hyphenated!?

actually, while we are here, can someone explain the official and proper way of using hyphens, because it often feels like you can put them anywhere...

football player, football-player...?

you could go mad using them...and some people here at work do...

@byrdbrain: Actually, gotta admit, I think this is my way of getting lighthearted after my rather unbecoming meltdown on another thread. It's a minor annoyance. I noted it a few times, it bothers me, but not overly much. Just seemed a fun way to start the grammar nazi nonsense up again. I mean, when all you got that's bothering you is that vs. which, you're pretty well off, aren't you?

No offense meant to anyone, really. That said, either 'that' or 'who' in the florist title would be an improvement. I'd go with 'that'.

as far as I'm aware, yes you can sort of put them anywhere you want as there are no real 'rules' as such. However, they should be used to link words that 'belong together' (I don't know how to explain this very well!) in order to avoid causing misunderstanding for the reader

e.g.

'a cross-section of the crowd' is unambiguous whereas

'a cross section of the crowd' could in theory mean two quite different things

thank-you!_

And with that, here's an old chestnut:

Please, let's not turn this into another "which hunt".

Christ knows what this has to do with STD's

Which 16 novels were they PapaG?

Now I'm trying to decide if that was a sly grammar joke that's eluding me or if you don't remember contributing to the thread, or if you're asking me which 16 novels *I* would have chosen (and been summarily fired for having chosen) had I had the misfortune to have been employed by Reader's Digest.

A truly syphiliptic task, trying to sort through all those possibilities.

On the plus(?) side, I wrote a very dark poem today that I think may stick. Gonna go to sleep now and see if it survives that. (...or is that, 'if it survives which'?)

Ah lets take a poll! Which TTers miss Papa G?

I do!

Poor papa g., he'll end up dreaming about Macbeth and not knowing which witch is which.

Little off topic but still worth considering:

Version 1: America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world," Bush said in the speech, the fifth State of the Union address of his presidency.

Version 2: America is addicted to oil which is often imported from unstable parts of the world," Bush said in the speech, the fifth State of the Union address of his presidency.

I wonder if the original speech had the comma or not ...