Time Mag cover story: Working women in Germany

Thought they had introduced paternity leave all over Europe already, I knwo there was adirective on the matter, member states should have taken it up by now...

I would say, Yes. We are a society. That means some of our money is used for the collective good. I don't use a car, but my money helps build autobahns, which trucks use to deilver the produce which I eat. Paying more for state funded Kindergartens allows a society to be even more equal, in that both the mother and father can work, if they choose.

I propose full day schooling all over and not just isolated incidents as a start. It would reduce the amount of homework, allow parents to hold nearly a full-time job.

Showem's got it in one. All-day schools would go a hell of a long way to change the situation.

Parents who can work also pay tax.
And not having to spend all their cash on childcare means that it drives the economy as a whole by increasing consumer consumption (more cash available).
So it isn't entirely one-way.
The organisation Kidding Aside offers an outlet to those who choose to be "childfree".

EDIT: Yes I'm also in favour of full-time schools.

I think full day schooling is being tried out now and has so far worked well. I know I read something about it very recently.

interesting discussion. one facet not yet covered is the social stigma in germany associated with working mothers. in most developed countries, as far as i'm aware, working mothers are now an accepted and perfectly normal part of society. in germany, they get called 'rabbenmutter', or crow/raven mother; not pleasant. merkel can change the situation all she wants but the old-fashioned perceptions and unpleasantness will take a lot longer to change.

speaking personally, whilst we generally live in social groups with friends from many different countries and german friends who are more open minded, there are still many people who have a very old-fashioned idea of family responsibilities. fine, if the father is a company director and earns a wad and your wife is happy staying at home producing children and cleaning up after them. not so fine if you don't have this type of job, want to provide the best for your children (which ain't cheap these days) and your wife wants to work.

No, I don't feel guilty at all because I don't have any kids...yet. But your blanket statement - stay home and take care of your kids says to me 'you women, stay out of the f*cking working world and stay home and earn no money, have no self esteem and stay dependent on your husband or the government or whomever is paying your bills while you stay home, and do not, absolutely not, try to better yourself in any way shape or form by thinking you might get ahead in Germany's old boys mentality that German calls the working world'!

Why should I stay home? I make more money than my boyfriend. He should stay home!

Bah! people should choose between having kids and both having a career for those few formative years, why should everyone have it all all the time? They'll pay for it in the long run when they realise their kids have nothing in common with them anymore...

@Kitkat, i didnt say women, read the post again and u will see i said " boys and girls"...

pirulero, stop trolling, it's not big and it's not clever.

I can wholeheartedly recommend that he does.

happy mothers (parents) make happy babies (and raise happier kids)

What makes a mother happy? Each one is a bit different, but resentment and stress are not key components ..

Speaking of the economy, whether my disposable income is spent by me or spent by a parent doesn't make any difference to the economy. Further the incredibly high taxes here are driving the professionals to seek work in other countries which is extremely bad for the German economy which is struggling at best right now.

There is something to be said in that we are all investing in the collective future of the Germans but taxing people to the point that staying in Germany is no longer attractive is counterintuitive.

@ KitKat - my hubby stayed home for a while after the second was born because I earned more. But watch it - men get used to that role very easily, and still don't do things the way we women probably would (weird, and stereotypical, but true - men have a hard time multi-tasking)

In Manitoba (every province is different) the Daycare is supported thru the government, you pay depending on your salary, to a set maximum. I don't have the figures, I only know from what my sister in law tells me. My sister in Law went back to University when my niece was 2 and my nefew 1, she found a great daycare - after looking all over, for the kids, she had the luck, that its in the elementary school that they now both attend. Kindergarden- age 5 in Canada is now full time ( used to be half days), so both my niece and nefew have a before and after daycare at the school. Its great for both my brother and sister in law. One takes the kids mornings, and one picks them up afte school at about 4:30 or 5 depending.
The daycares are all checked by the province for standards, and there is special courses that the workers have to take.
In Canada maternity leaves are now 1 year, either parent can take it. One of my girlfriends just had a baby in August, and she is now back at work, and her husband it taking the rest of the mat leave, as she is a Teacher, and the only french teacher in the area she lives, so she feels its important to be there for the kids in her classes, and she is the higher salary earner.
I have done alot of thinking of being a single parent, and will move back to Canada to do that, as I don't think I could afford to live here and support a child, if I cannot get proper day care, and trust the people looking after my precious one.

They are not going to open illegal childcare facilities... they are trying to open legal ones... there are alot of illegal childcare options in Munich... that isn't a problem to find...

bathrooms... having several which is more than one... not an absence of bathrooms

I like the idea of a McCare place... at least it would be consistent... children like consistency...

exactly what I was getting at kitkat. Dump him if he assumes you should automatically be the one staying at home!


pat leave

Well, I was in day care while my parents work and, newsflash, I have a lot in common with my parents and I appreciate the sacrifices they made for me so they could give me a better life than they had. I am a happy well-adjusted member of society. I do not think my growth was stunted in any way because I was in daycare while my mother continued to work as a nurse so she could help my father support us. My mother and father are saints.

My parents worked like crazy when we were young. They sacrificed spending time together so that we would spend as little time as possible in daycare and when we did do things as a family, they stressed the importance of it. I have nothing but great memories of time spent with my family while growing up.
To suggest that my life would be better had my mother stayed home with me is purely speculation.

All I am saying is that Germany should give families more choices.

forgot the address the crime rate thing, I think that is a load of bullshit, bad kids have nothing to do with daycare... it has to do with parents teaching right and wrong. My cousin had her son in day care at 4 months (that was the mat leaves in Can at the time), and when we would go out, he would see things that other kids were doing wrong, and we told him he couldn't- like crossing on a red, climbing on statues and not playstructures, he always asked why not? and we said- We love you so much, we want you to be a nice grownup. Got alot of nasty looks from other parents, but what do you do?

Ever heard of sales tax?

@kitkat

I just think i learnt a lot of things from my parents(especially my mother , but also my dad who tried to work at home as much as possible...)that i would never have learnt at school/daycare, and then when i socialised with other kids it was in my own time, on my own terms, not when i was forced into a room full of them. And the fact that u are a "a happy well-adjusted member of society", might prove my point, maybe that's to societies detriment...

(i dont mean to personally offend u, i simply disagree witht the phenomenon of reduced parental responsibility because of daycare and the overemphasis or career and money over family.)

Heh? All I'm saying is it doesn't make any difference to the economy who spends my money, me or the parent who eventually gets the extra money that I pay in taxes.

Maybe I'm not following your argument.

agree totally. I would go as far as to say it has been of benefit to me to see that both of my parents had careers (mum earns more in fact) and were equally involved in 'household duties'

No I don't think that you are.
As a lot of childcare is black economy, this money does not go via taxation (following initital taxation at source).
Secondly, child care is tax deductable to some extent and the jobs created thereof have another tax rate.
Freeing up capital in household budgets by transferring the saving in childcare to a more open budget gives more choice in what a family unit uses that cash on.
Germany has a saving culture so some of that money would be banked, but some of it will return to the open economy in the form of goods and services (which creates further employment and tax revenue).
So to think that subsidised childcare incurrs costs is correct. To omit the return (even if it is potentially smaller) on those costs would be an error.
It also causes a net loss to the economy to educate people who then either leave their careers completely or do not achieve what they should or could (not only in terms of work but also in terms of healthcare - if someone isn't fulfilled by what they do, this also has an influence on their health). Not that parents should be forced to work (although many feel that way).
Germany is also a social democracy, so the load of society is shared which is another aspect.
Of I don't actually pay income tax and don't have children, so to me it is all a bit irrelevant but an interesting topic nonetheless.

pirulero, i'd like to understand the things that you learnt from your parents before the age of 4 (when i started school) and how you can know that you wouldn't have learnt these anyway if you had spent a portion of the day in daycare.

How long does an employer have to keep the job open for a woman that is on maternity leave?
I have heard various periods of times quoted but no one seems to know the exact period.

Anyone paying taxes finances them, among others working parents and working non-parents. The working non-parents benefit from the parents' having kids later on when the kids are paying their dues to the state pension funds, meaning they get something for nothing. It's only fair that their money is used to finance child care, even if they don't use it.


If I hadn't had a career (or at least good job training) I would still be stuck in a marriage with a Dementor who resented my feeling happy when he was depressed - which was all the time - and in all probability in Haar (psychiatric hospital), unable to parent my daughter. My career saved my sanity, and I am sure I'm not the only one. But that is not what this thread is about, so enough. Start a new one if you like.

3 years is standard

AFAIK three years after the baby's birth because then the kid has a right to a kindergarten space (which is not always to be acheived). But if the work structure does not allow, for example, part-time the employer can refuse to take her back on. Very delicate topic.

Ok, Thanks. It seems that is a good deal, I dont think women get that in the UK or the USA.

Does this mean that a woman can leave to have a child and come back straight into her old job after 3 years or is there a catch (there must be)?!

It doesn't have to be the exact same job but it should have similar status.
Read the Ministry for the Family has to say.

Sorry to go all boomtown_rat, but it is "Elternzeit", men can use the time too.

its good - but can be double edged i.e. it has the potential to make employres wary of employing women of a certain age unfortunately


people pay good money to be mistaken as boomtown Another few hundred years of nagging and we'll have equality

I still don't see any convincing arguments why someone else spending my money is better for the economy.

Today I will do my part for helping the German economy by buying a nice pair of boots.

Then I certainly don't want the (not unconsiderable) taxes I pay going to clean up garbage off the streets (I don't litter), paving the roads I don't drive on, collecting garbage from people who don't sort out their paper or any other goods or services I don't use. Certainly don't see why I should be paying the pensions of any old people I 've never met before either. Forget about military spending and research, ... training programs, kids doing their social year helping the handicapped. I didn't realize it was all so black and white. I'll stop paying my taxes now and send my kids to private school.

geez.

As Katrina wrote before. Using a smal percent of your income to finance these daycare centers allows two parents to work and double their disposable income (actually a lot more than double). This results in more purchases, more boots being bought mean more needing to be produced, which means more people employed, which means more disposable income.

I didn't say anything about not paying taxes to support these programs. We have to make certain sacrifices to live as a society. What I have an issue with the proportion and compared to other countries here in Germany it's massive. Other countries manage to have far superior social programs but require less funding from the tax payers. The issue in Germany is allocation, with all the money they are bringing in how are we not living on gold paved streets?

well, Its certainly not being dumped massively into the school/education/day care system.

Have to look somewhere else for the money drainage. (I'm thinking unemployment - which sortof ties back in again...)

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of the double income advantage.

One could start with the MVV ...

Because we are alimenting former Eastern Germany as to infrastructure and pensions funds. Now that is one thing I would love to rant about, but it's neither here nor there on this thread.
The so-called Generationenvertrag (contract between the generations) means that the current working generation pays the pensions of the retired generation. But without people having kids to keep up the payments, the Generationenvertrag is gonna go bust. So providing daycare now - allowing both parents to work - ensures future generations who will pay into the funds dished out to pensioners - even the ones who had careers but no kids.
If women do the KKK thing, half (roughly) of the dues for the pension funds will go missing.

I agree with all your points but my original inquiry was what can we do about it?

The only answer I came up with was raise taxes which due to my aforementioned points I didn't see as logical. It seems I'm alone on this though.

Or one might think of this ridiculously expensive, totally useless new high speed train that will go to the airport in 20 minutes. How much is that thing? It's a boat load of money that the government wants to spend and why? Because Germany wants to be the first Western country to have one of these things.

We already have a train that goes to the airport! Why do we need another one!!
OK that is a whole other thread...sorry.

Or better a reallocation of our tax money.

faster train to the airport= better links to businesses/conference locations=better investment environment=equals more investment etc. etc.

You seriously think they just want a train so they can get up on the olympia turm and point and giggle...?

I agree!

i rushed of my feet today so i cant join this thread but here my tupence worth..


if your married, forget it. these places are pretty much only there for single parents.


the one who earns the less stays with the kids after the brestfeeding is over. i also though know of cases where the dad has offered to stay at home and the mother has refused such a suggestion.


yep, im finding this to be the most stupid school system ever. i am not qualified to teach 7 year olds, leave 'em in school with the teachers. big problem though is infrastructure. school canteens do not exist. would require a massive building development programme. would give part time jobs though to alot of stay at home parents though just like in the uk.


this is an urban myth a bit of victim paranoia. its often the other way around. dont forget a heck of alot of women choose and want to look after their children, and see it as a most fullfiling and satisfying way of life.


tell him he's a lucky bastard, there are alot of dads out there who have no choice but to work and miss out on their kids development.


total fucking bullshit. every weekend i cook (and i mean cook, hand made bread, hand made pasta, curries, roasts, breakfasts) i clean (better than my wife sometimes) i look after the kids etc etc. if you dont like things being done different stay at home, jeeez!


EAST GERMANY AND UNIFICATION...

being given the choice of one parent looking after the child is wonderful, lets not knock that, and lets remember that the first three years of a childs development are the most important, so the ability to provide a stable family atmosphere is great. its not a perfect system, and things such as schools should be seriously looked at, worse still is the concept of "hitzefrei" a parents nightmare; but coming from a working class (read poor) single parent family background i'm glad to be in a country that offers so much choice. some of you girls are complaining about not being able to choose both career and kids. my mum didnt have a choice either. she had to do both. count your blessings i guess.

Every man, and every woman, is different. I do not know any woman who has turned down her husband/partners offer to be the stay at home parent - you apparently do.
I cook every weekend and every day, homemade all the way (my chicken soup - num num), I keep up the house,
Oh - I work from home. I work a good 60 hour week. I don't sleep much, but I will when my kids are older.

Cooking on the weekends is not being a full time mom and working a full time job.

Having it all is possible. But it's not as easy as Eurovol makes it sound and not as hard for women as you make it sound.

sorry its the best i can do. i was responding to your sterotypical sexist comment, not about working parents. funny, if i'd have used the argument women should stay at home not the man, because looking after kids and a house requires the multitasking skills only present in the female of the species... what would your reply have been?

Men in general think differently than women. I can't help it and I honestly don't mean it is worse. I just meant it is something to consider before making the choice as to who, if anyone, becomes a stay at home only parent. Sometimes it is not necessary or desireable for one or both parents to stay home. It should be an individual choice.

Exactly.
Using economies of scale.
Combining or disssolution of some Bündesämter
Transparency and accountability
Ach, ask the Bund der Steuerzahler...