Time Mag cover story: Working women in Germany

I was actually going to suggest the role of families in Ireland. Folk tend to either leave the country completely (like our TTSpudmüncheners) or stay closer to the wider family. Which means that grandparents or informal childcare steps in where the state does not.
At least that is my impression which may or may not be accurate.

The UK has full-day schools (well until about 3:30pm-ish) and a lot of women go part-time (with the career impact that entails). Child care is also predominantly private but with tax credits.

and if you miss quote and take things out of context all i can presume is your trolling dude.
all i know is what its like to grow up in a one parent family shoved and pushed around from playgroup to friends to whatever and back again because you dont fit into an adult's working life schedule; and having the resulting feeling of security equivilant to that of a mollusc's on a vasaline covered rock. my way is better than that, and thats good so. so fuck off and add something to the debate.

I think this was an excellent perspective from the US side. The grass is always greener...

I think maybe some people might be missing the point here.

I don't think anyone can argue that the legal benefits provided here in Germany (Erziehungsurlaub, Mutterschutz, Kindergeld etc etc etc etc) plus child-care provision are anything but top notch.

But why despite all this, are women finding it difficult to combine a career and family?

i think there a number of reasons for this:

firstly, a lot of the legislation, designed to help women, may in fact be detrimental to their employment in the first place.

secondly, the culture at the top of German industry really hasn't changed that much. Germany's top industries are still very male dominated and little or no regard for female employees is taken.

thirdly, the current system, as stated above, does little to encourage companies to provide for female employees' needs. Maybe some thinking needs to be done on how to encourage companies (rather than the state) to provide child-care for their own employees. Maybe some sort of tax breaks for companies that provide child are facilities, maybe a legal requirement for all companies above a certain size, maybe a combination of both.

trolling dude!? Yes, past form shows I'm a right troll I'm sure. Did I miss something? You have implied it may be better with a parent being at home for a number of years with a child, DDBug said she didn't think her kids would have been better off with a non-working parent. You said, correctly, she will never know. Surely that also holds for your personal experiences with your kids too too? (ie you'll never know for sure) Doesn't seem that strange. Here are the full quotes - fill me in if I've misunderstood something. I didn't see any references to single parents in the exchange bwteen DDBug and you either but as I say, perhaps I misunderstood - I'd be interested to know what.

Full quotes:


Surely if people are happy with their own choices (as you and DDBug seem to be) then its fine either way isn't it?


thanks

no problem, as ever you added nowt to owt. numptie. exit button is top left says (Log Out)

Nah, not really any more. Most Irish are a la carte Catholics. Don't think anyone believes that "every sperm is sacred" anymore
As an Irish female friend said to me recently "you spend most of your twenties trying to avoid getting pregnant, and most of your thirties trying to get pregnant."


Birth control, the morning after pill and divorce are all legal now. Abortion is still illegal, but the bus to England has been replaced by cheap Ryanair flights. Ireland has certianly historically had a bad reputation on womens rights, and deservedly so. I don't have the figures to hand but the female participation rate (for females of child bearing age) is now very high in Ireland. There are of course still lots of older women who are not in the workforce, partially due to historical Irish attitudes to, and indeed laws for, women in the workforce


There's certainly some truth in this. However it's getting more difficult as many young people from the country are now working and living in Dublin, and many young Dubs are priced out of the local housing market and living in the country.

But I do think outlook and attitude have something to do with it. I get the impression that families in Ireland tend to stay closer together than in Germany (based on those Germans of my age that I know). Also Irish people seem to have a bit more confidence in the future. Despite everything going for Germany there's a huge amount of pessimism here. And also that having children is more of a goal in Ireland. In fact it's turning into a bit of a status symbol.

But these sort of things are very hard to influence by Government policy (though I think Singapore may have had some success on that front).

Just noticed another article about women in Britain, it seems despite legislation companies are still discriminating against women, so it's not just here. Womens pay

Then why would you want/expect government subsidy?

My theory: if you can't afford to raise your children, don't have them in the first place. Period.

gosh - ER - I guess you'll never have kids then. Because you can never afford them. It's never the right time, and they always cost lots more than you expect...

That would be very sad indeed but you're right if I stayed here, there would be no way I could afford to have children.

You could, but you may not want to. At some point your priorities change. I honestly believe its better (also financially) to raise them here rather than north america - but I wasn't so sure until I had my kids and dealt with the system here. I don't prescribe to the "have a child and suffer for it" school that seems to prevail across the atlantic. Children are cool and Germany is - if not female friendly - very much more child friendly than people project. Especially compared to the UK (where I have spent considerable time with and without my kids) and the US.
Speaking of - one is home now. And since I have a German job, I can take friday off early and play with him.

although DDBUG and myself disagree on the nuances of chilrearing and dishwashes, but i couldnt agree with her more on the fact that you are never ready financialy for kids. but alot of the things you enjoy buying and felt were necessary to have when single just become soo much lower on your priority list. its like giving up smoking, you'll always find a reason not to.

In my case, as soon as I would become pregnant in germany I cannot do my regular job, as there are lot of restrictions due to stress and the chemicals used to clean the rooms and such, so I need a desk job, A FUCKING DESK JOB! Not what I want to do, mights as well just put me in a closet then. I would earn the same salary, but my salary is propped up with a monthly commission- which I would no longer have, doing a desk job. So, my postition would suffer from it, and then trying to rebuilt my patient list up after I was to return to work after 2 or 3 years. If I found a good kindergarten for my child.
You cannot convince me that its better to raise a family here.

I am coming in bit late here, but wanted to thank jml for posting this article. I have sent it on to quite a few of my friends as it really does put a lot of things in perspective for those of us living long term in Germany. I also want to say that I have an immense respect for those couples who choose to raise children in the current environment and particularly when they don’t have the hands-on support of the immediate family around them when living in a foreign country.

I have a comment that is more related flow on effect of the attitudes to women in the workforce even when they don’t have children. Not having children may be due to a deliberate choice, or it may be due to unforseen circumstances – physically unable, not met the right man at the right time, left it too late to try and so on. Nevertheless women without children also bear the burden of the archaic attitudes towards child rearing and women in the workforce.

I don’t have children and fall into the category of 30% of women 34-40yo without kids. When reading that the statistic for childless women in my age group is so high I am even more astounded at the primeval attitude of some employers when considering employing women in this age group. Or rather I should say NOT employing women. I have been warned by some recruiter friends of mine that this is an issue - that women of this age may not even get interviews because they “could become a problem� and that some personnel departments have unwritten policies to this effect! Does this mean the alternative could be to declare menopause at 40, but then be too old to be employed? Another case of you’re damned if you don’t and damned if you do……Having said that, I am still the eternal optimist that there are fair minded people out there and that these points are statistics that can and should be influenced.

Oh and I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in the editorial decision by the Sueddeutsche today to present an article on the Minister for Families using the headline “Rabenmutter�


(Ursula von der Leyer has seven children. And she has also got a career. And of all things as the minister for families. This can't be true! A few insights into our envious community)

Oh no! A Minister for Families who's actually got one!!

What's next? A Transport Minister who drives a car?

BTW if you got a Sky box, tonight's Panorama on BBC 1 is about what British kids think about their parents' work/life balance. (Starts in 15 mins ...)

Panorama website