From the cover of the latest Time Europe Magazine:
Why Merkel is Not Enough QUOTE
Germany may have its first woman chancellor, but hold the cheers. if the economy is to grow, the new government needs to do much more to ensure that women can combine the worlds of family and work
Interesting Data:
QUOTE
The hard-won achievements of German women are limited, to a startling degree, to the world of politics. And even within government, females encounter hostility from traditionalists who expect them to be at home rather than in the corridors of power. In most other fields, German women lag behind their counterparts elsewhere in Europe. They tend to be paid less, lose their jobs faster and stay out of work longer — and in all economic measures, they fare far worse than German men (earning 12% less on average, according to the Institute for Labor Market and Professional Research). In a survey of women's presence in the workforce sponsored by the World Economic Forum last year, Germany placed 20th out of 58 developed and developing countries. The same survey ranked German women 28th in job opportunities and 34th in educational attainment. Fewer women were elected to the Bundestag last year than in 2002. Only 21% of the top jobs in the German corporate world and in public service are filled by women, and female CEOs are rarer than hen's teeth. Will Germany's first first lady make a difference?
She has ample reasons to try. No rapidly aging society — and Germany is one — can afford to waste the economic potential of half its population. But if Germany is to get the most out of its women, it needs to provide them with adequate opportunities to work. At present, it doesn't do so. Indeed, the country risks being trapped in a vicious cycle; those women who are wooed into the workplace find it so difficult to combine family and work that, increasingly, they choose not to have children. That just exacerbates the demographic challenge.
Of German women aged 34-40, 30% are childless, twice as many as in France. Among academics and top managers, the percentage is higher still. If birthrates continue to decline, the country will one day have a workforce too small to support the social and medical programs that its elderly will need. Previous governments have sounded the alarm about this scenario — and then done little or nothing about it. Child-care provision remains poor, and there are few incentives to help women go back into work once they have started families. If Merkel uses her leadership to find ways in which women can be better integrated into the economy, she will go down in history for a lot more than her gender.
[img]http://afsf.lackland.af.mil/Images/WWII/images/WWII%20We%20Can%20Do%20It_gif.jpg[/img]
bucket06
Jan 26 2006, 8:19 am
Substitue Germany for any of the following ;
Australia
New Zealand
Canada
UK
France
USA
...
ie. nothing new in what is being said here. It applies equally across the western world.
hockeywidow
Jan 26 2006, 8:30 am
If Germany is to get the most out of its women!!!
Staying home and raising the children is not an accomplishment?
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 8:32 am
In fact I would say child care is pretty good here, maybe not for babies, but the kindergarten system seems pretty good, better than anything in Britain IMHO.
kitkat64
Jan 26 2006, 8:32 am
Bucket06 - you have got to be kidding!!! -You have no idea what you're talking about here. In the USA, companies actively search for ways to make it easier for women to work and have a family and, in fact, they do so for men also. Germany is years, even decades, behind the US when it comes to women in the work force. Women in Germany are discriminated in every way when it comes to working. 1) they can actually ask you if you plan to have children and can disqualify you for a job if you answer yes (illegal in the US) 2) there are very few options for childcare in Germany for children under 3 years old (not so in the US). I don't have time to sit here blabbering about this for the next 3 hours because I'm trying to work (sitting next to my colleague who is 44, married to an engineer and has no children because 1) who can afford them and 2) she wants to work. The two just do not go together in Germany.
I hope it changes. I hope Andrea Merkel can change it.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 8:40 am
Anyone who doesn't realize how poorly women in Germany fare compared to other countries doesn't have their eyes open.
Germany is still very much a "hausfrau" society - from the shopping hours (granted, which have relaxed a bit), school system (be home to feed your kids lunch and help them with their homework), tax structure (she who earns less gets the worst tax bracket) and attitudes towards children in Krippen and Horts ("asozial" "lernunfähig" and from the "wrong" social class), and the major pay discrepancies in "Frauenberufen".
Nothing wrong with staying home and raising kids - but there's even less wrong with having a career and raising kids. And much less wrong in having a fair chance to do so, with a fair income and chance to succeed.
I always felt living in Germany as a woman must be like it was for my mother in the 70s in the states (attitude wise - a constant uphill battle to succeed).
alala
Jan 26 2006, 8:48 am
Yeah, kindergarten's pretty good here, IF you can get your kid in. You get priority if you can show them that you have a job, but you can't get a job unless you can show your prospective boss that your kids have a place in kindergarten. It's a vicious cycle that you can really see out here in the suburbs. Then too, every town has a limited number of kindergarten places, and once those are full, you're SOL, even if you do have a job.
I would like to see some comparative statistics for the US and UK, though, if anyone has them. Just out of curiosity.
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 8:49 am
QUOTE (kitkat64 @ Jan 26 2006, 8:32 am)
there are very few options for childcare in Germany for children under 3 years old (not so in the US).
Really, is this for everybody or is it as usually seems to be the case in America, only if you can afford it?
alala
Jan 26 2006, 8:53 am
The state provides nothing, afaik, for kids under 3. If you can afford to hire a nanny or Tagesmutter, I guess you're good, but I don't know anybody who can here, and I gather Tagesmütter are extremely rare and quite expensive.
kitkat64
Jan 26 2006, 8:54 am
I really don't know how expensive it is to have daycare in the US (as I don't have kids). However, over here, good luck finding a daycare that will take babies under 9 months. You have to find a tagesmutter. My neighbor pays only 400€ per month for hers but she makes far more money than that in her job.
I had another colleague who had a baby maybe 2 years ago. Her mother-in-law took care of the baby while she worked because she could not find anyone who could take care of him while she worked - and that was not a money issue.
It is a vicious cycle. It won't change very quickly, but I hope it does.
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 8:55 am
I wasn't suggesting the state provided anything here, I was asking about America, as it was claimed that it was better there than here!
Katrina
Jan 26 2006, 8:58 am
QUOTE (hockeywidow @ Jan 26 2006, 8:30 am)
Staying home and raising the children is not an accomplishment?
If you can do it then great.
Not everyone can or will, nor should they have to.
That families (including fathers) have to find a work/life balance (although that's an awful term for it) is a given.
And one size does not fit all.
Putting working parent(s) against home stayers isn't a good move, it polarises.
In Germany, the level of female employment (particularly of mothers) is comparatively low (check eurodata et al). And the birth rate is declining (likewise). If national states do not want to go the route of increased migration (which brings with it other issues), then encouraging new births amongst the local population is necessary.
There is currently a generation of academic, well-positioned women who choose against parenthood for a variety of reasons.
Hey, wasn't there a good thread on this a while back? Mods?
Hey no merging. I want the cover story!
Katrina
Jan 26 2006, 9:00 am
Get a piccy then baby! xxxx
eurovol
Jan 26 2006, 9:04 am
QUOTE (kitkat64 @ Jan 26 2006, 8:32 am)
In the USA, companies actively search for ways to make it easier for women to work and have a family and, in fact, they do so for men also...
2) there are very few options for childcare in Germany for children under 3 years old (not so in the US).
Now let's not go overboard. If it weren't for laws inacted which corporate America fought tooth and nail against they would not be actively doing anything and I still question how active they are. As far as child care for kiddies under three, I beg to differ there. The US is way behind in preschool and headstart activities. In the States, the cost of daycare for kids is enormous and many places will not take a kid under the age of 3. Private daycare will, but not all and they cost a pretty penny. In fact, for the average working woman in the States, the majority of her salary is spent on daycare. There is a reason you know for illegal in-home daycare where there are a dozen kids and one person looking after them. It is a huge problem and why is that? Because there are not so many options. Oh, and there has still not been a female President so lets keep things in perspective.
@katrina meh, the good ones are stock photography and my runner up is in english.
[img]http://magicmirror3.tripod.com/working_woman_barbie/workingwomanA.jpg[/img]
ps: am mildly disturbed that i own most of the outfit above.
bucket06
Jan 26 2006, 9:06 am
QUOTE (Katrina @ Jan 26 2006, 8:58 am)
...
Putting working parent(s) against home stayers isn't a good move, it polarises.
...
here here!
Keydeck
Jan 26 2006, 9:09 am
EUnomad
Jan 26 2006, 9:14 am
There are more childcare options in the US.. I started working in the US when my daughter was three and had no problem finding a place for her to go ... which was reasonable.. covered my working hours and was near where i lived... I now have another three year old and am finding it very difficult...
I know people trying to start childcare facilities, Kitas, for children under three and they are stuck in a mess of requirements that are extremely difficult to meet... (qualified teacher for babies, which is a special degree here in Germany... having several bathrooms so locations that meet the legal requirements...)
one person I know was told she was overqualified to open that kind of business, she has an MBA, so even though there is a need and people willing to fill it, the government is making it difficult...
Another professional here in munich told me that if you are female and over thirty forget looking for a job... the companies will accept your resume but in most cases will not hire you... because you might decide to get pregnant since you are at the age where Germans start having kids, and they don't want to pay for your maternity leave...
Most new small businesses are being started by women... and this is one of the reasons...
sarabyrd
Jan 26 2006, 9:19 am
QUOTE (kitkat64 @ Jan 26 2006, 8:32 am)
1) they can actually ask you if you plan to have children and can disqualify you for a job if you answer yes (illegal in the US)
Illegal here, too. The closest anyone ever got was when I was being interviewed in 1988 and the boss mentioned that I had one child already - with a very *pregnant* silence following that. I said I wasn't planning another one until the next decade. She was born 1990.
I paid through the nose for the Tagesmutter, "only" € 400 is roughly equal to what I was paying 14 years ago. And the Kindergarten was from 7.30 am till 4.30 pm, try to figure a full-time job around that. Merkel grew up in the East where everyone HAD to work, so of course the state provided daycare. Don't see her toting no kids or grandkids, though.
eurovol
Jan 26 2006, 9:23 am
I should also mention that Mama or Papa or a combination get to stay home with the kid for the first three years of its life. AND, you get erziehungsgeld. Now tell me how America can compete with those options?
My son started Kinderkrippe at the age of 1 1/2. They had one little girl there that was 9 months old. Some specially designated ones can take babies as young as 3mo. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Today my son is in Kindergarten and is 4yo. Today is the day that he goes swimming.
Mama got to stay home with him the first 9 months of his life and papa the second 9 months of his life. Mama got muttershutzgeld plus urlaub and erziehungsgeld.
As for tax brackets, well that is the tax system here and has nothing to do with being female. X amount of tax is always X amount of tax no matter how you divide the contributions between the parents.
eurovol
Jan 26 2006, 9:30 am
QUOTE (EUnomad @ Jan 26 2006, 9:14 am)
I know people trying to start childcare facilities, Kitas, for children under three and they are stuck in a mess of requirements that are extremely difficult to meet... (qualified teacher for babies, which is a special degree here in Germany... having several bathrooms so locations that meet the legal requirements...)
Yeah, like I would put my son into a situation with unqualified people and no bathrooms. If you count those as options in the US, then yeah, there are as many of those "illegal" places as there are McDonald's.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 9:34 am
Eurovol - erziehungsgeld is not enough to live off of, not that people get that impression. And not everyone qualifies for it, and only European parents qualify for the third year of it.
Kindergeld is great for us - it covers the costs of kindergarden and hort. But I had a really hard time finding a day care spot for my oldest son (born in 1997) and being in the elternbeirat on the hort and school, see the stigma that is attached to children in Hort and Kigas.
And - I never got Urlaub or Erziehungsgeld - not every mother does here (and I am a "German Employee").
And the tax brackets are either 4 / 4 or 1 / 3 - 3 being the worst reserved (normally) for the person earning the least (guess who that is most of the time) - yes, at the end of the year it is thrown together, but it doesn't help the self-esteem of the lower earning partner during the year.
Bubble Gum
Jan 26 2006, 9:43 am
Thank you for this article, this is really interesting. My German teacher told us about this and explained how one of the reasons German women don't have kids is because of the lack of support. She had to enroll her child into Kindergarten at the age of 2 so that he would have a place by the time he was 5. France was one of the few European countries where the government really provides support to the parents, and also one of the few countries where the birthrate isn't so low.
eurovol
Jan 26 2006, 9:46 am
So your saying that my esteem should have been bruised and battered when I had the 3 and my wife the 1?
We took the erziehungsgeld in the 1 year allotment (get more for less time) and it paid our rent. In the States, you get zilch and you have to get back to work ASAP or face being fired! Must stay in perspective.
We visited 6 or 7 Kinderkrippe's and yeah most were full as we were looking to get Ian in rather quickly. However, we got a yes from 3 of them. No, it was not like popping around the corner and enrolling the kid in the local McDaycare, paying the $4-800 per month fee and then just dropping the kid off into the assembly line system. I might also add that those places are also usually 7-5 and overtime can and most likely will cost you by the minute.
Elfenstar
Jan 26 2006, 9:49 am
QUOTE (kitkat64 @ Jan 26 2006, 8:54 am)
I really don't know how expensive it is to have daycare in the US (as I don't have kids).
my sister-in-law paid $600+ a month to put my nephew in daycare in austin. the younger the child, the more expensive it is. she had him in at 3 months b/c my brother was still a student & she the sole breadwinner. he could watch the baby 3 days a week. they however had to pay the full amount to kepe their place "reserved".
now my nephew is 2 1/2 & it "only" costs around $450. she wants another child, he doesn't b/c he says daycare is just outrageous & in the u.s. you pay out the nose to keep your kid in a good one.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 9:51 am
Eurovol - unqualified people in day care in Germany - you betcha!
I took my son out of the first kita (state run) he was in because his diapers weren't changed all day, he had bite marks on his stomach, a little girl had a mysterious broken wrist, mine "tripped" and his head was gashed open, the kids in the kita who couldn't walk yet were often found on the stairs with pens (ok, mine was found there twice by other parents). etc. One woman took smoke breaks when she was the only one watching 12 under 3s...
I took mine out, but other parents were afraid to say anything because the availability of day care was so limited.
My kids are in fantastic (state run) places now though
sun-by
Jan 26 2006, 9:52 am
I, too, want to thank you for this article. People like you enrich TT and justify my near addiction, my lurking in a virtual community that often feels like home and not only sometimes shocks and offends me (a window on the real world, I suppose) but also edifies and affirms.
I'm sending the Time link to my relatives and friends in America, who don't have a clue what being a mother in Germany is like. They'll NEVER know what having children come home from school at 12 is like (sometimes at 11 when the teacher is sick) and stores that close at 8 p.m.--or... the true meaning of the word inconvenience.
Topsy
Jan 26 2006, 10:00 am
Time and again I see women in great jobs where I work - and then they get preggers, and they can wave bye-bye to their career over here, because one parent or the other (and it's usually the woman) has to work part-time until the kids are old enough to look after themselves after school (which finishes at lunchtime). That's going to be at least 12, 14 years. Forget it.
If you're a woman over here, you have a choice - kids or career. You can't have both.
Elfenstar
Jan 26 2006, 10:05 am
i think there quite a few misnomers about being a mother in germany. i've told my u.s. family members that a woman has rights to her job, after having a child, for up to 3 years. my american gf's think that is wonderful. my sister-in-law nearly broke into tears b/c she had to put her son back into daycare after 10 weeks. she had an agreement w/her boss to stay out for 4 months, but then her boss quit & the new boss did not keep that agreement.
there is also a misconception about erziehungsgeld & the like. from most of the women i know who earned quite a good salary before pregnancy, erziehungsgeld turns out to be so minimal that it's not even worth counting on it. & if your partner earns a lot, then forget it too.
the longest argument my ex & i had was about staying home after having a child. i said i'd do it for 6 months, surely, but no longer, that i was in a technical field & could not afford to be away. his argument, then I'm only working to pay childcard & i said no, i'm working so that I can stay in my field & not have to sacrifice everything b/c i am a woman. he never got it.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 10:12 am
You can have a career and children in Germany - I do. But it's not easy, or cheap.
But I have also toned down the work stress and dropped management aspects in the past couple years because there is more to life than career and more to life than career and kids. (anyone for curry or something next week?)
canaryman
Jan 26 2006, 10:16 am
A number of our friends have children. One is a pathologist at the local hospital, she has 3 kids. One is a teacher with 2 kids and will be returning to work soon. One was a manageress at an IT company and has 2 kids. She has stated that she has no wish to work and that her husbands income is more than enough BUT the government insists that she attends "training sessions" to prepare for her return to work or she loses an allowance??!!
Seems to me that it is possible to do both but it is not made easy. It is also interesting that more "career women" in England actually downgrade their jobs, by choice, after becoming mothers.
Choice is the keyword I think and it seems that there is not much of that associated with motherhood and job over here.
knusper_muesli
Jan 26 2006, 10:17 am
My sister pays €1,200 a month for her daughter's daycare. It's a Montessori school program and my niece (3.5 yrs old) can stay there basically all day (the total cost includes an extra couple of hundred for the afternoon program. This is in the Bay Area.
I almost fell out of my chair when I found out how much daycare costs. I mean, who can afford that?!?! Horror. Shock. So what I'm trying to say is that having children sounds pretty unrealistic in both Germany AND the US.
@CM, ummm I really don't like the word "manageress". Not to get all PC on you, but please just use the word manager.
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 10:19 am
As an aside, do think the relative lack of crime here could be attributed to the fact that the kids are actually raised by their parents, by choice or compulsion, and not shoved off to the care of strangers as soon as possible.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 10:19 am
KM - It doesn't have to be private montessori day care... or international schools...
sarabyrd
Jan 26 2006, 10:20 am
QUOTE (Topsy @ Jan 26 2006, 10:00 am)
If you're a woman over here, you have a choice - kids or career. You can't have both.
I chose both - sort of perforce coz I left the ex when Lou was 7 - but was lucky enough to have a school with daycare until 4pm for single parents only, this until she was 12. Not that I was very happy about Lou being on her own so long till I came home sometime around 6.30pm, but it can be done. None of the daycare/kindergartens she was ever in were state-run - private, church-based or municipal. The state doesn't give a tinker's curse about kids until they're old enough to pay taxes.
DDBug
Jan 26 2006, 10:22 am
Correction - Sarabyrd is right - the kitas I am talking about are municipal - city-run and not state run.
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 10:23 am
QUOTE (sarabyrd @ Jan 26 2006, 10:20 am)
The state doesn't give a tinker's curse about kids until they're old enough to pay taxes.
Do you mean here or in America?
Katrina
Jan 26 2006, 10:31 am
QUOTE (Allershausen @ Jan 26 2006, 10:19 am)
As an aside, do think the relative lack of crime here could be attributed to the fact that the kids are actually raised by their parents, by choice or compulsion, and not shoved off to the care of strangers as soon as possible.
My mother worked and I haven't even had so much as a speeding ticket.
It is more to do with a prevailing culture in that it appears to me that most folk do not break the law because it would be wrong to do so unlike other places where people do not break the law because they would be caught.
Huge generalisation but so is implying that care outside of the home equals crime spree.
Working parents can make their own guilt, that I'm quite sure of.
Pirulero
Jan 26 2006, 10:36 am
f*cking stay home and look after your kids u selfish, selfish boys and girls...
kitkat64
Jan 26 2006, 10:38 am
Pirulero - you ignorant fool, shut the f*ck up.
knusper_muesli
Jan 26 2006, 10:39 am
So maybe this has already been discussed, and pls excuse my ignorance, but where do not-well-off working mothers take their kids, both in the US & Germany? My impression of these places so far is basically dirty holes in the ground where a ton of kids are taken care of by one stressed out person and the kids are fed koolaid and cookies or something.
Ok, obviously overly dramatic, but I worked in one of those places as a student...
sarabyrd
Jan 26 2006, 10:40 am
QUOTE (Allershausen @ Jan 26 2006, 10:23 am)
Do you mean here or in America?
Any government.
Bush and Rumsfeld are visiting a middle-sized town. First, they go to the Kindergarten, talk to the kids and the teachers and leave a check worth US$ 500.
Then they go to the local jail, talk to the inmates and wardens and leave a check worth US$50,000.
Rumsfeld says, "Dubyah, why did you only give the kids 500 bucks and the jail 50,000? The inmates are criminals who broke the law, but the kids are our future."
"Rummy", says Bush, "when the law catches up with us, we sure as hell won't land in kindergarten."
Pirulero
Jan 26 2006, 10:42 am
"Pirulero - you ignorant fool, shut the f*ck up."
Sorry, am i making u feel guilty for wanting to enjoy capitalism while ur kids are looked after by a stranger...?
Allershausen
Jan 26 2006, 10:42 am
QUOTE (Katrina @ Jan 26 2006, 10:31 am)
most folk do not break the law because it would be wrong to do so unlike other places where people do not break the law because they would be caught.
This has to be taught though, it doesn't just come naturally and the parents are some of the best people to do this. Of course not all kids whose parents work turn into the kray twins, but when you see reports like the one yesterday about the violent girls in England, although that was probably a blown out of all poportion, I can't help wondering, what are there parents doing. I'm going to stop now or I'll have to start buying the Daily Telegrph.
Katrina
Jan 26 2006, 10:44 am
QUOTE (knusper_muesli @ Jan 26 2006, 10:39 am)
where do not-well-off working mothers take their kids, both in the US & Germany?
Well I don't know about the US but here, being a working parent on a lower income will get you some priority into some daycare (especially state, civic or church-run) and may get you a subsidised place. However, those places are limited and so it is often so that folk fall into the childcare gap, can't work without childcare, no childcare without work.
There's also relatively little information about informal childcare, say when the grandparent or other relation takes up the slack.
eurovol
Jan 26 2006, 10:52 am
Here the cost of KKrippe and KGarten are based on the parents salaries. The max. is far below what it would cost in the States. In the US, there is help for the working poor, but for the most part it just isn't worth it unless you are dirt poor and on welfare, food stamps and the like. If you belong to a church in the States that offers daycare, then that can help.
Elfenstar
Jan 26 2006, 10:52 am
QUOTE (knusper_muesli @ Jan 26 2006, 10:39 am)
So maybe this has already been discussed, and pls excuse my ignorance, but where do not-well-off working mothers take their kids, both in the US & Germany?
if she is a single-mother, she will get welfare, stay home & not work until she has/wants to.
EDIT: In D-LAND.
boomtown_rat
Jan 26 2006, 10:53 am
I don't think its a problem as such that a parent stays home for a while after the birth of child, what annoys me is that it very often seems to be automatically assumed (by men and women) that the woman will take that role. In general, women and men should stop accepting women assuming some sort of supporting and semi-subservient role
Eleanor Rigby
Jan 26 2006, 10:57 am
Rather than complain I'd like to know what you propose the goevernment do to change the situation for the better? You say you don't get enough support, not enough Kindergeld, there aren't enough state funded
Kindergartens.
Who is supposed to finance these programs?
Do you expect singles or those who chose not to procreate to pay even more tax to support your children?
