School segregation in Holland

Segregation in the Netherlands

Scary stuff in my book

It has to be a joke:
What about white immigrants and "Colored" Dutch people? Which door do they go through...

Hmm would like to see another source on this..

I was wondering where my kids would go in, since you can't define "white" and "immigrant" generally in two classifications...

VERY effing dodgy.
Don't forget some centre-right politicians want this in German schools too...

Sorry - freaked me out when it was pointed out to me - but I can't find any other sources either.
Though, I agree with MT, it is still something to be watched out for. I have heard Bavarian politicians make very disturbing comments about haupschuler (mainly foreigners) and hort children that makes me agree with you there.

@ DDBug, it's always nice to talk with you about education stuff.

You are right on the "hauptschule" issue. I was listening to a "Schülersendung" Wednesday on M95.4 and it came from a Hauptschüle somewhere in Munich. When they read out the names of those taking part, maybe 2 out of 20 were German.

To an extent, the German streaming system and separate schools has already created a segregated public education system. Streaming generally has been identified as a reason why German public education does badly in the PISA studies. Bavaria has come top of the German states in PISA...BUT:

Bavarian schools come off I think WORST in terms of social mobility of pupils and WORST in education offered to migrants and their children. These 2 aspects are set to have more weight in PISA in the future and will I hope wipe the sneery-smile of Edmund Stoiber's face.

MT
Have you heard how every child in Bavaria should be given the education to which he is entitled / deserves ?

Even the Germans in the beirat at our school are worried about this - since it could be interpreted in so many ways - to which he is entitled/deserves due to intelligence, work, dedication, birth, nationality, status of parents...??

I'd heard of the "begriff" and it did set off alittle warning light. I'm glad the Beirat etc are worried about this.

MT. What are your views on muslim only schools in the UK. Do you think that they are anything to do with the "right" or the "left" or any other reason?

It's a joke. It's quite obvious because it's a Belgian publication.

The Labour Party has sought to build links with establishment Muslims and weaken local public control of education and Muslim schools is part of that.

The "left" should be taking issues that concern Muslims seriously.

But I am against religious schools. I think education should be under democratic control through the local authority.

I don't beleive a word of this, it has to be a hoax. As Ulysses says it a belgium site and the Dutch and the Belgians are like the Germans and the Austrians, or the English and the Irish, or the Americans and the Mexicans, or the...

I don't think it is a Joke. The dutch are no longer that tolerant or friendly compared in the past. (I heard there was an incident that trigger this)

One of my Hong kong friend told me about her experience...she was driving in holland and was at a stop near a traffic light. Just when stopping she saw someone had spit on her car and it was the driver who was driving next to her. Sadly it seems that foreigners are not so welcome anymore in Holland.

Yeah, the Dutch are not as tolerant as a lot of people imagine they are, but that's over-the-top. The Dutch still keep it to themselves and not very open about how they truly feel with respect to "allochtonen", the word they have for non-Dutch people.

Oh yeah, one dickhead gobs on someones car and suddenly you tar 15 million other people with the same brush.

Big fans of Pim Fortuyn till the insides of his head got liberated over a Hilversum car park.

@Allerhausen- Perhaps if you are not Caucasian, you would understand what racism is in Holland

Or racism anywhere for that matter. You should realise though, that it is also not unheard of for a Dutch person to vandalise a German's car; happened to someone I know in Amsterdam. I hope you agree that that's also racism despite the fact that the victim was Caucasian. Actually, how do you feel about "affirmative action"? Is that not racism in reverse? Or does it not qualify because the victims are often Caucasian? And is saying Caucasian any better than saying Negroid?

I was sat on a bus in Birmingham a few years ago, minding my own business, smoking a fag upstairs, when this black bloke just walked up to me and spat in my face.
I've never got over it, really. He didn't know me from Adam.
I just found it totally bizarre and stupid (but then that is what racism is, really).

Not to sure if its "racism" in Holland. They've had loads of black fellahs there for ages from Dutch colonies (they've formed the backbone of their football for years )
The Dutch are just getting arsey with immigrants not "integrating" properly, not learning the lingo etc. They want mandatory lingo and culture courses for immigrants, which are expensive if you do not pass (so maybe you can construe that as economic racism)
I'm not too against the lingo and culture courses personally. I cannot believe for a second about segregated schooling based on skin colour though, thats a scary concept.
Segregation SHOULD exist however, but based on intelligence, not race, and only in some subjects, not neccesarily entire schools.


aaaah. those were the days..

I can tell you my personal experience with this as my son has been through Grundschule here in Germany and is now in secondary school.

It has been a nightmare, but then again, he went to one of the worst schools in Munich, The Hirschbergstr. Schule.

In this school there were two classes for his year. He was in class B. Interestingly enough, his class had 27 students and only 19 of them were German. Class A had 3 foreign students and the rest German.

In his class only 4 students ended up going to Gymnasium, 3 went to Realschule and the rest went to Hauptschule. The 4 that went to Gymnasium were ALL German. My son got the marks for Gymnasium (2,33) but I ended up sending him to Realschule because he was so emotionally stressed by the time he finished Grundschule here.

His teacher constantly told the students in the class that they were “at best Hauptschule and would be bus drivers� the woman was a total F* bitch. She told me that my son was not mean for Gymnasium and would hardly get by in Realschule..funny though, he got the GRADE for Gymnasium and when she tested his IQ (yes, she did that) he rated 127. HELLO?!

So, I watched his grades very carefully and wrote down all of the marks he got on his test. In the end, when it came time to get his Ãœbertrittszeugniss, she gave him a 3 in math which gave him a 2,66 and would not only keep him out of Gymnasium but require him (under the new Bavarian law) to take a test to get into Realschule.

Funny though, this didn’t add up. Thankfully, I had documented all of his grades. So I took all of the copies down to the school and met with the teacher and the Headmistress of the school. It seems there was a “mistake� made (no mistake, the teacher was just a bitch) and he actually had a 2 in math. Voila! Now he qualifies for gymnasium.

I could right pages on all of the details but it would be too much. Suffice it to say, I have first hand experience that the school system hear slants the education they give foreign students in order to keep as many as possible out of Gymnasium. You see, if they go, then they get what is essentially a free university education- and if that happened, well…who would drive the Germans around in their U-bahns or pick up the garbage.

It is outlandish here.

If anyone wants more specific details, just ask me.

I do agree that racism is everywhere and it is not just one of my friend that experience this in Holland.All of them are Asians. I just find that as long as you do not know speak (your accents as foreigner) as a caucasian it is less likely to be a target for racism compare to other races. But it is no doubt that the same colour of skin will experience this awful thing.

Germans Living in bavaria do not like berlin germans (The same nation!)

@Danarae-I am glad that your son finally prove himself.

@DanaRae

The comments coming from Bavarians I have already had to hear about non-Bavarians as well... The rest of Germany seems to be getting inferior schooling and their Abi-Zeugnisse basically not worth the paper it is written on. Non-Bavarians are de facto dummer it seems and the Pisa study results seems to be proof of that. Just read the tabloids now and then. "Bavarians are the cleverest" "Bavarian kids are the smartest".. Shit man, we are foreigners, another step down the social ladder, we should be happy if they at all let our children into their amazing schools and you shouldn't blame the teachers for being biased.

Well, absolutely bloody nobody outside Germany like any Germans. Universally disliked

@Andy101 - I found Singapore to be seriously racist as it goes. The chinese look down on the malay, the malay look down on the indians, and the indians look down on the bangladeshis. Cab drivers, like in many countries, were seriously racist.

@Don-that is why i said racism is everywhere. My country is no exceptional but never will a Singaporean person come up to you and spit on your face just because you are not the same race as he or she is.

By the way, is'nt that so (majority but not my own behaviour) the richer look down on the poor everywhere too? Personally, i am grateful that the rubbish collection man helped me to clear my bin whether in Singapore or Germany. I am also grateful to the cabbies or transporter driver here for doing their job to make sure we have a pleasant trip home it is not like that we pay taxes or pay for the rubbish collecting we should take for granted to these people.

I know racism will never cease but as long as it does not start with you (This you means ALL and US), at least we know that people on this earth still believe there is Love & Peace.

Om Suasti Astu

@Danarae

I'm sorry, but one example does not prove anything. I have an American friend who arrived when he was 14 and had no problem getting into gymnasium.

As for the Bavarians being number one in everything, you get that behaviour everywhere. Look at the North-South divide in the UK and in South Africa, it's the Cape against Gauteng. In America, the Texans think they're the best. I think it's pushing it a bit too far calling rivalry racism.

I am not so fussed about the entire thing anyway. We are moving to France in a couple of years and he will go to a private bi-lingual gymnasium there.

I also told him when he was enduring taunts from so called "friends" about not going to Gymnasium here., "Hey, you will go to University if I have to pay to send you to one of the best in the U.S"

No system is keeping my son out of University. Like I just said to someone else, that is my American attitude coming out. Who in the hell thinks they can tell my son (who just started the 5TH grade) that he can't go to University.

It is ridiculous that they make such a decision for the child so early on. Every child develops differently.

The education system here, is one reason the customer service is so bad. I have a theory that the people working in the service industry feel "put down" by their own system and German mentality. But that is another post..

@ DanaRae, MANY thanks for your story. Fits with what I've heard and read.

I'm of the opinion that "the system" almost deliberately doesn't want to allow non German children to do well at school in case they get educated and start to threaten the status quo.

I am completely of that opinion. It is so sad. Especially for the bright children who come from families with lower incomes and have parents who do not speak the language. This was the case with most of the students in my son's class.

Actually, when another parent and I met with the Headmistress of the school to complain about things, we asked her why the class A never gets new students, all of the new students went to my son's class. Her answer? "I can't tell you that."

well, all I can say is, I don't think France will be any better. Quite possibly worse, actually.

This is one of the reasons that German conservatives are up in arms about anti-discrimination laws coming from the EU which will make it illegal to discriminate in educaton based on race. Should be some interesting court cases where the schools are forced to divulge statistics that they currently don't want to disucss with concerned parents!

It's a good private school, I know it, my partner went there. So it's OK, I'm not worried

Hey Monks,

Where can I read more about that?

It's funny, but my mate's parents brought him to Germany because they couldn't afford to send him to a private school in America and that was the only way he would've gotten a decent education there. They felt a German government education would be better. Would you say that the American system is any better when it seems to discriminate according to your pocket?

No, I wouldn't even begin to suggest that the American system is better. And I never even mentioned it, so why do you ask? *perplexed*

In German its called "Anti Discriminierungs Gesetz", should be plenty out there if you google for it.
I caught half a report yesterday on Bavaria 2 Radio.

Covering access to all kind of public and commercial serivcies including educationa and health care as well as being (say) refused service in restaurants etc.

I could write pages too ... having a daughter who just had to leave Gymnasium cause of bad marks.

it's not only because of nationality that kids don't make it into Gymnasium.

It's also the fact of school being only half-day long, and in order to enter into Gymnasium, parents are expected to do additional work with their kids every day- the rich families have the mother working only part-time (and has time for homework), or they pay a lot for Nachhilfe. - me as a single parent working full time, I just coudln't make it. and the "Hort" (afternoon care for school kids), takes care that the homework is done, but mostly don't offer additional learning.

But it's also the attitude of the parents.
Educated (mostly richer families) just force their kids into Gymnasium, they HAVE to succed. Whereas in less educated backgrounds parents often think "Gymnasium is too difficult", "I might not be able to help/him her", "I was fine with Hauptschule/Realschule, so why should my kid become smarter than me".

And teachers aren't much of a help either, having all those prejudices in mind.

@Zee

Yes, I have also seen parents forcing their children and making their kids nervous wrecks. I paid over 1200€ last year for Nachhilfe but then stopped.

I was referring to this. Tbh, I think Gymnasium is a little over-rated. I've know quite a few people who have gone to Realschule and who have made more out of their lives than many gymnasium students. Sure, they didn't go to university, but they had their Bilanzbuchhalter exams by 25 which many university graduates actually fail and are very successfull managers.

I would very much agree though that I sometimes find Germans a bit latently snotty. The Dutch are the same. It's no wonder that both attach so much importance to titles.

the worst ist, already in 2nd grade, when kids get marks, parents get all nervous about "Gymnasium" and "Ãœbertritt", hire Nachhilfe. Can't they just RELAX until fourth grade?

I mean if you don't get your f*** Abitur, there is nothing wrong with you. In my family, it's not the university people who make the most of money and who have the best jobs.

And, what would be so wrong if your kid really isn't smart enough to enter in University? ... I hate all those comments about my daughter "oh, she'll make Abitur later on, don't worry". As if there is anything wrong about Realschule. I wouldn't mind her to be hairdresser, if she's just happy and if this is what she likes (fashion designer is what she wants to be, actually).

this could be moved to family life, methinks. nothing to do with dutch schools and racial issues.

talking about forcing, don't push Uni if he doesn't want to go


interesting story, thanks, sounds like quite a struggle. Good luck to you and him

Interesting comments zee about social background.
That's going to come out more in new PISA studies too.
That the German education system makes it harder for children from less affluent backgrounds to get as good an education. And on this, Bayern scores badly I believe compared to other states.

German education system:
Start primary school (ie reading and writing) at age 12
Secondary school at age 19
University at 28
If you are motivated you graduate at 43

Was your American friend coming from an American Highschool? If so, that is nothing, Coming from an American Highschool you automatically have the right to go Gymnasium. The situation is different if you come through Grundschule in Germany. Very different.

I don't think it is that going to realschule is necessarily "bad", but precluding the children from the choice of going to university or trade school or whatever. And reinforcing the latent upper/middle/lower class mentalities.
PTA Meeting tonight- hopefully I will have the date for the panel discussion on class sizes - invited the pols and the press.

For the record, and unfortunately too late to stop the usual scaremongers from jumping on the bandwagon of institutionalized racism, comes a rebuttal by the Dutch journalist the Brussels Journal based its piece on originally.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/691


That's a really classy comment. Congratulations.

Cheers, took me a while to find the formulation I wanted.
Not in favour of assasination but not going to weep for a dead Fortuyn either.

Curious,
what don't (didn't) you like about him?

Racist / far right populist nationalist.
Not going to call him a fascist as I'm not sure he was.

Hypocrite too. Far right ideology while shagging with his Morrocan boyfriend.

Bloke who killed him is also a bit of a nutter mind IIRC.