Racism and discrimination in Munich

As a non-white American woman living in Munich since 2001, I have experienced a fair bit of racism and discrimination in this country – some intentional and some non-intentional – yet these situations never fail to baffle me. I mean, wealth in Munich is reasonably evenly distributed and given that so many Germans travel, and have, in addition, been to my country as well as even to the multicultural city I'm from, not to mention are of an comparatively educated background and generally claim to be social-minded and liberal compared to most Americans.

And along the years, I've come to realize that Germans have an uncontrollable, inherent impulse to blatantly stare at me like I must have winning lotto numbers burned into my face, which, while is disturbing, I have learned to ignore, yet since my ethnic background is not that obvious, I get also automatically spoken to in broken English and get asked if I’m from: Japan, Mexico, Thailand, Turkey, Peru and once even Palau, which I found amusing. Not only do I speak fluent German and I even have German ancestry.

It sucks to always be reminded that people notice the color of my skin all the time.
In fact, it’s much more than annoying. Especially when I get approached by pudgy, pasty, extremely unattractive German sex tourists who insist they’ve met me before in a seedy bar along Khe San Road in Bangkok.

Just curious to see if anyone has experienced anything similar and I simply want the relief of knowing that someone else out there can totally feel my pain.

Talk to me.

can't say I notice the staring much but thats usually because I ignore people in the street etc, but the staring has been metioned a number of times on TT so I'm not sure it is colour related.

That said, I can well imagine you encounter intentional and unintentional racism in Munich/Germany


charming I'm sure

I wouldn't be so quick to call German staring racist or discriminatory. Staring is what Germans do, no matter what color you are.

My girlfriend, who is as white of an American as can be, went crazy the first few months living here with being stared at all of the time on the U-bahn or whereever. She's learned to ignore it, but that is what they (Germans) do.

Especially if they hear the slightest bit of English come out of your mouth or notice that your fluent German has a strange accent. I'm fluent too, but still get the stares from strangers when I speak German, and I'm a white, American dude.

Anyway, don't be so quick to consider it racism or discriminatory.

yeah, it's dumb. I'd like to think people stare because I'm cute, but, probably not...

the thread about Germans staring

It must be an uncomfortable feeling, but germany is so homogenous that you probably stick out a bit - but that doesn't necessarily mean in a bad way. People as a rule tend to notice things/people that deviate from the routine.
Or just stare in u-bahns as a rule (gotten used to that)
I remember being at a party and being the only light haired (non-hispanic, non-black, non-"non-white") person at a wedding reception in the states years ago - people definately stared, wondered what I was doing there. They kept looking to see which guy brought me (I was really there with a girlfriend though) It was uncomfortable though.

I think you should have a word with all the Turks here. On the one hand, I think Germans may not be as exposed to the realities of multiculturalism in the same way as someone living in Paris or London would be;it's often way more difficult walking the walk than talking the talk.

On the other, maybe you're just being super-sensitive...

You may as well update your profile because now we know you're female

People also stare at me sometimes, but not because of my skin colour. Just grin and bear it, the same thing happens to a "white" person between "black" people, it's just human nature and you can't change it.

German staring has been the topic of many threads. I'm not sure it's racist. I'm a white young American but they are always staring at me. It bother me when I first moved here then I got use to it and didn't notice it much. I moved back to the states for 5 months. Now I'm back and I notice it all the time again.

they stare at anyone, they're not fussed what colour you are (it drove me bonkers at first, as well)
and yeah, they try to talk to you in english, even if your german is way way better - just answer them in german, that's what I do (except at TT events, obv)

Believe me, I know when it's just staring, and when it's staring because I look different.
I've lived here long enough and am well integrated.
I wish it wasn't the case, but spend the day with a group of women of color and ride the U-bahns, hang out in bars, and go shopping. You'll see what I mean.
I'm not saying it's intentional, I'm just expressing that it's annoying.

I'm a black american and I lived in Germany for 8 years. I didn't notice the staring thing so much mainly because I tend to ignore most people when I'm out and about and just mind my own business. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as a figment of people's imagination though. It can be a little bit more unsettling being a non-white person living in Germany and being stared at than a white person. Especially given the racist history of Germany.Sorry but that's the truth.

I am white and very German-looking, my man is black. People do stare when I'm out and about alone, and it's weird. But, it is nothing compared to the stares and looks we get when we go out together. You are not hyper-sensitive. It is real. I don't know that it's hateful in any way, but it is certainly there.

I am not here long enough yet and I am just starting to be able to babble in German. But if anyone stare at me on the U-bahn, I stare back. stare and stare and stare until they turn away.

Yeah, i can totally imagine that. if you were at a wedding of someone on my ma's side (the non-white part) of my family, the same might happen, which might be funny at first, but becomes uncomfortable.
But the food would be worth it, though.

staring is a german pasttime. they love a bit of it.

Yeah I do the staring back till they look away thing too. Usually only takes a second.

I would, but none of the people that stare at me are that cute...except for once on the 27 Tram, but he had a kid with him.

No it's not a figment of anyone's imagination, and yes it might make you personally more uncomfortable given germany's history but you are not *usually* being singled out specifically because of your looks or colour. you're *usually* being singled out simply as you're there ... of course i say usually as there are exceptions to everything, for everyone, everywhere. however, staring here seems to be an acceptable and common practise. germans will stare at anyone and everyone. passes time i reckon.

becareful with that staring back though, because eventually you'll be finding yourself on the initiating end of the stare stick if your not careful.

Germans stare all the time, do a search, you'll find loads of posts. I generally try to look as aggresive and unapproachable as I can, I snarl at people, carry glass bottles of beer everwhere I go, have a German Shepherd in tow, and that tends to make people look away if I glare back at them, but not always.


Well, probably yes actually. Don't get me wrong, but if people often think you look like a thai hooker, then alot of people are gonna fancy you.

Anyway, forgetaboutit. People stare, Germans stare ALOT, but if you start thinking people are looking at ya,then its because you are looking at them, and humans look back if somebody looks at them. Perfickly natural. In fact, here in Munich, its a daily sport to look at people, and to be looked at. Its mostly concentrated around Leopoldstrasse. You can actually sit in a bar, and see the saem girl walk past 5 times in 30 minutes, as she struts her stuff upon the Schwabing catwalk.

You know, it's interesting that you mention that, because I notice that the Turkish women don't get stared at half as much as someone who has a slightly 'African' 'Asian' or 'South American' look to them...Funny.

sounds like you are 'staring' a fair bit yourself

Are you suggesting my problem is linked to resembling a Thai hooker? Geez. And all this time I thought it was my Van Halen T-shirt.

No, no staring - I would say, just brief assessment scans that I was taught to do at Quantico.

Next time I get caught flirting with a nice-looking girl on the U-Bahn, I'll call it a "brief assessment scan"!

Thanks for all the interesting comments.
It's good to hear what people have to say.
We're all only human, afterall.

I'm off to get a beer now...will make sure to stare back on the U-bahn until people turn away.

Ever tried laughing aloud when these people stare? That's what i do and this usually send them in shock. How I respond to the question of where in Ethopia or Senegal I am from is by asking where in Austrailia or Finland they are from. Maybe the most ignorant comment I came across so far was being asked if I am from the USA. When I gave my response as no the following comment was "but you speak good english!". I also laughed aloud then.

I came across some serious racism here and it is not just about the stares. I have had incidents like being checked again on the train after the Azubi already checked, because he is l"ikely to have made a mistake". Anyways none of this perturbs me...everyone is entitled to be as ignorant as they want to be.

Is ignorance or insensitivity racism???

You might not like being labeled an American because you speak English well, but that does not equal racism.

I work with a lot of Black Americans who have either married Germans or have chosen to live here for other reasons. The majority have expressed to me that they experience a lot less racism here than in the States.

Staring always happen when people stand out...and the Germans have perfected it. But to me that doesn't equal racism.

I would be more interested to hear if those minorities have experienced difficulties being hired, aggresively or rudely treated (staring aside), denied apartments, name-called, etc.

Man - I totally hear you. Stuff like that is really annoying. I get the flip side of that. People literally refuse to believe I'm from the states, despite my really good English because of the way I look. In fact, one German lady had the audacity to say, well, you're not white or fat, so how can you be American. Messed up and ignorant.

[quote name='gemini' date='Jan 20 2006, 9:23 am' post='407423']
Is ignorance or insensitivity racism???

- Racial predjudices stem from both ignorance and insensitivy, so maybe it can be an indirect, and even untintentional form of racism. Everyone has racial prejudices - you're lying if you don't - and it's a human tendency to discriminate against something you do not know (for whatever reason), but whether you can acknowledge these thngs and also how you conduct yourself or act on your preconceived judgment or opinions, that determines whether it remains simply a human thought or a racist idea.

You might not like being labeled an American because you speak English well, but that does not equal racism.

Staring always happen when people stand out...and the Germans have perfected it. But to me that doesn't equal racism.

- No, but he has a point, it's a racial predjudice. No one constantly points out the color of your skin. You have the luxury of forgetting about it even. At the end of the day, you're just the person you are. But when things like this happened - daily and repeatedly - you realize that if we were white, we wouldn't be noticed so much. There's no problem with this, essentially, but that we live in what's supposedly a 'multicultural' society in Germany, that's a load of bunk. People are not ready. That's the reality. You can't fault people for what they don't know, but it doesn't make it any less discriminatory for the ones that have to bear it.

I know and am one of many Americans of color that will tell you, racism is different in Europe and can't really be compared to what goes on the in US. Just look at the socio-economic and education differences of the population in urban areas in the US and you realize that there's no level playing field on which to compare these two forms. Sorry, but think it over.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I love my life in Germany, and I'm not heading back to the US any time soon, but this race stuff gets old. If you had a week in my shoes, you'd know what I mean. I mean, I'd love to trade a week in your shoes, too...provided you're attractive, of course.

@snap: well I ain't chopped liver!!! Though probably have more miles on me than you do.

Please don't misunderstand me...I am well aware that as a white person I am a able to never have to think about my skin color as something people are staring at me for, or judging me on...lots of other reasons perhaps...but not that.

I just don't want to confuse stupid remarks with overt racism.

Do I think racism exists in Germany...you betcha.

I used to get stared at a lot whilst walking around certain parts of Kingston. Bloody racists!

In the mean time I actually kind of like the staring.

Sometimes there are some really interesting/odd/funny/ugly/hot looking people about and you want to watch them but feel it's impolite . . . then you remember you're in Germany and can stare to your hearts content.

I stare at people. It seems less weird to me that obviously and consciously staring at some spot on the wall, or scanning around looking at everything except the other people. Other people are typically the most interesting things to look at so why not stare at them?

There's a difference between looking around at people and staring. You sit on the u-bahn staring at me and I'm going to ask you what you want. You do not desist then I'm going to roundhouse you to the head ala Chuck Norris.

there have been a couple of times when i have been subjected to what can be interpreted as racism. Once on the Ubahn on me way to The Arc wearing traditional gear, everyone thought i was some muslim fanatic, and had a friggin bomb me thinks. got me a seat real fast and people moved away from me to the other end.

the other time was when i was walking back home from GM's and these "punk" types were having a nice drink, started saying something in german, i just looked and they seemed to want to have a fight, went up to them and could hear them murmuring about turks, couldnt do a thing them all, course we were right next to muenchener frieheit near the kabab shops guess they did not think they could take on all the turks there

That's funny because when I wear my 'traditional gear' in the ARC, I now, suddenly get left alone, because Ami's are bad news these days. We're not in with the in-crowd anymore, I guess. Suits me fine, though. Hey, maybe I'd get approached if I wore my USA flag Hawaiian Tropic bikini to the pub...hmmm...but that would be a bit of a waste, judging by the dudes I've met hanging out at The Arc.

Both tongue in cheek comments, I know, but it does seem that you yourself are relatively concerned by other peoples appearance eh..

um = YEAH. hence, the ironical comments. i gotta laugh, sometimes, or i'll end up bitter and alone in dinky apartment in sendling, sitting on the couch in a bathrobe with a room full cats and some empty boxes of honigwaffel.

just imagined that, must admit in my mind that looks cool in the correct setting, i see it in balck and white (colour would spoit it) a la sin city type, you wearing a bathrobe on a couch, cats all around, munching at some of whatever that was, looking lost in some thought i am thinking avenging angel back after killing a few baddies

God, i Do need to see a friggin doc

Whats traditional garb? I wear a headsock there all the time, does that count? I am an Ami and I never feel like I am bad news. Unless I am wrong...

No, of course we're not bad news - I don't know about you, but I represent. But wearing the colors sometimes gets me some rolling eyes and squinty looks...or maybe that's because I hang out with too many British people...hmmm.

The colours? Is that like a gang thing?

Hey - watch it. I'm no thug .

Again question? I dress how I want to and could care less what peeps stare. I have been asked if I was homeless et etc... I am a minority a real minority here but find the stares are more often peeps wanting to know someone foreign. In fact at Octoberfest, I ended leaving my party and getting drunk with a bunch of kats from Augsburg(total atrangers). They loved it that someone from a foreign country was living here. They even apologised for the die, der , das thing.

i thought the gang thing was rubber and and ordering Salt & Vinegar crisps

I think anyone here that knows me, knows that i dress how I want to and not worry about what people think. My only concern is with the DB authorities. They always stop me.

It would be pitiful if you were an adult that dressed how someone dictated you to do so. So, we all, pretty much, dress how we want to. It's just that some people are better at it than others. Subjective, of course.
Not to quote When Harry Met Sally, but, everyone claims to have good taste, and we can't all possibly have good taste, so...there you go. In the end - do what you want, it's yo' body. Just don't complain when you get a ticket from the fashion police.

Yup. I always mysteriously get checked twice because the second person someone 'didn't notice' if their Kollege already checked my ticket. Sure.

hmmm...when you guys mentioned traditional gear, do you guys mean head dress? It is common to me as i have been growing up with neighbours, friends etc wearing daily

Just be yourself, don't give a damn about others who thinks you are this or that.

Unfortunately, I didn't go up in culture that had head dresses, so I can't really get away with it, except for if I was in a theatrical performance or something...it's a bummer...but I really love those kinds of things and I have a good face shape for it. I do have lots of hats, though. Hats are cool, but that's a whole new topic. I can imagine that people wearing a head dress here would get looked at funny. Shame, really.

Well for the record I have no fashion sense so there that part is over. If we want to quote cinemas I will match your "when Harry Met Sally" quote and raise you one "Garden State" quote "Im ok with being unimpressive, I sleep better".

As for the Ami thing there will be quite a few of us at The Arc Sunday night to watch the playoffs(whoever is playing). You could wear the bikini but I strongly advise against unless you wear thermal beneath it(but hey like I said I have no fashion sense). Just look for the headsock guy(me), the Buzz Lightyear guy(Blitz), and the deer in headlights guy( Kaiserf). So you are more than invited

later
El Nino Perdido

*Now where is my Leonard Cohen CD?*