Racism and discrimination in Munich

Yeah, maybe I'll pass by there (sans bikini). My partner wouldn't be too happy about that...or maybe he would, and then he'd blame me for disgracing us both in public...anyway, will you guys be watching the Superbowl (whoever is playing)?

You'll be there au naturel?

Def bring him in too. As for Superbowl.. yes we will, but Ol' Hazza wont let us watch the commercials

Ewww - You wish!

WHAT!?! The commercials are part of the S-Bowl, dangit!

Have you seen this link that i started up last year?
I now how you feel. It is terrible isn't it.
People are so cold aswell. Even if when you are in a night club even? They would not approach youo to say hello.
Where i a from this does not happen.

Acts of racism and discrimination...

Brandy

Why didn't you reply to the questions and comments on the thread that you created in March?

Wow - that's terrible. Yup, I have to admit, I've been tripped up, as well, but mostly by old women. It's funny when I hear people saying, 'Hey, maybe you're being a bit sensitive, ' because people who know me, my dear friends in particular, seem to think I could use a little more compassion for humanity. City kid mentality, I guess. No, but sorry, if you're white, you really wouldn't notice the kind of racism that's directed toward people of color in Munich, because it simply doesn't happen to you. There are cultural generalizations that we make to describe behaviors that appear to be acceptable in Germany, and, unfortunately, a lot of these behaviors coicide with what we've been taught in our cultures is "polite" and "impolite" to do in public, but believe me, if you think people here in Germany stare, go to mainland South East Asia. People there will stare at you blantantly with their mouths open and not blink, and it's apparently common practice...along with hocking a lugie, which I personally find putrid, but that's just me. Anyway, my point is, you think you know, but until you witness it first hand, you'd be surprised the amount of racial and cultural incompentence floating around this 'clever, rich' city.

Whenever it gets to me, I just like to think about how the Munich Germans are the biggest sun-worshipers ever and I think of the amount of people here that tan themselves until their necks get leathery. Pretty ironic that they all want to brown themselves my color, but then try to trip me up in the Trambahn. It's warped.

Getting off my soap box now. Go have a beer, Brandy. If I see you in the U-bahn, I'll make sure no one tries to trip you, sista.

I was at MiniMal today and was almost killed by a horde of stampeding Neanderthals who were jockeying for position as a cash register was opening up - by the way, I'm unmistakably Caucasian. My example and your experiences on the metro aren't a question of racism, so quit victimizing yourself, it's just the boorish Germanic way of doing things.

Sorry, but EVERYONE, inlcuding other Germans get stampeded. That's not the issue at all. No one wants to be a victim, but it's not really justified to speak of things that you really don't experience. You have to at least admit that. I'm sorry that happened to you today, that was nasty, but trust me, that kind of thing plus some happens to me. Dude, if I really felt intentionally targeted or was made to feel like a victim, I wouldn't choose to live here. No one has ever called you a 'Reisfresser' or a 'Schlitzauge' on the U-bahn, now have they? Is that just the boorish Germanic way of doing things? Because to me, that's a bit more than just jumping for the cash register.

from what you write here, I don't really see what you've experienced can be referred to as racist (apart from the Reisfresser/Schlitzauge you refer to above)...in fact I would say the above quote comes across as being very racist against Munich Germans! it is a HUGE generalization to say they are all sun-worshippers.

Munich is a big, densely populated city people push and shove (it's like this in Rome/Paris/London/Berlin/Manchester...this I can vouch for) also, do you know that not everyone in Munich is German? it's 25% likely that the person(s) who 'tripped' you up were not even German.

I think you are being a little over-sensitive.
a lot of us have posted saying the staring thing is normal here...how do you know they are staring you must be looking at them too!

Come on people, because you have no way of experiencing it, does not mean you should discount the feeling of others and say racism does not exist. The word "racism" might be in some cases a bit strong as in my opinion this implies hate. Racial profiling is however very prevalent here. Case in point: In the community where I live, when entering a bus you must enter using the front door at which point you show your ticket to the driver. So today I entered, showed my ticket like everyone else, validated my ticket and took a seat at the extreme back of the bus. After a few minutes the driver got up, walked past everyone else and asked me to show him my ticket again so he can see if it was correctly validated. Are you doubting Thomas' going to tell me that is random selection? When it happens once it can be put down to that, but when it happens more often than not then one has no choice but to notice that there is a pattern...

My ex-wife is black and sad though it is, reactions were generally different here in Munich when i was with her than when alone. Ranging from the aforementioned staring to outright grimacing at the sight of a caucasian with a black girl, luckily it used to make us laugh.

Especially the questions from other guys as to whether " its different ? "

I can't remember any outright abuse directed at her but she was normally with me and Germans tend to be non confrontational in my experience.

Good post iscream
I haven't commented on this thread till now because I'm white, tall, blue eyes and lightish hair. So most people who just see me would consider me German. Therefore I've no way of really experiencing the attitudes or vibes people of different ethnic origin or skin colour experience. But based on the odd comment I've heard (from people who've assumed I'm German) I've no doubt that non germanic looking people here experience more than just the general level of staring and pushing. It's backed up by the fact that when they find out I (or friends who've experienced similar) am foriegn, they immediatly say something like "Oh we don't mean people like you" (i.e. white western european).

Perhaps everyone else showed him their tickets after stamping them (which you're also supposed to do).
Alternative solution: Buy a weekly/monthly pass. No stamping.

It's not racism that your ticket was checked. Profiling, sure. And why the profiling? Because people matching certain profiles (foreigners, stoners, schoolchildren) have been shown to be more likely not to pay or stamp their tickets. Unfair overall? No. Unfair to you? Yes. You suffer for what others have done just as I suffer various expectations due to carrying a US passport. But life's not fair.

If the driver was racist you wouldn't have been allowed on the bus. If you want to see serious racism in action, forget the American South. Try living in Japan.

People get tired of exaggerated claims of racism. Believing you see racism everywhere you look and complaining about the most miniscule perceived slight is like crying wolf. I've heard it so much that I'm unlikely to believe even a legitimate complaint without it being so blatant and horrible that it makes the front page of the SZ.

woof.

Profiling? i.e. generalising on the basis of race? i.e. racism? Or is racism different thereto?

Ever visited a "Jazz" bar in Miami. I did. We were the only two white people in there. We were stared at, scowled at, had it made clear that we were not welcome.."What do you want, man". Situation was only diffused when I asked, in my best British accent:"Two pints of your best bitter". Conversation ensued, the group that we stood with at the bar sort of went around to tell everyone else that we were "Brits" so therefore "ok, even if we are white" and we had a great night.

I only posted this because, firstly, I get fed up with black and asian people bleating that every white person that looks at them is racist and assumes every black and asian person is more accepting and more friendly towards people of a different hue.

If you are different (colour, height, dress, spoken, etc) people will tend to look at you. It doesnt mean that there is a budding nazi within them and that they wish to erase you from the face of the planet.

Using profiling in this sort of way is discriminatory behaviour. I think the London Metropolition Police have learnt this the hard way. Should the profiling be based on religion, then the discrimination could be called sectarianism. Should it be based on race, then I think it can be called racism.

Of course whites can be victims or racism as well. The point is that most of us on this forum who are white were brought up in, and live, in an environment where whites make up the majority and the elite. So racism suffered by whites tends to be more isolated, such as being on holidays or in a non-white neighbourhood.

My husband comes from a really small, close-knit village where everyone's family has been living since the beginning of time. Needless to say, the population must be 99.9% white. I really had to laugh a couple of years ago when we were there for the holidays. The local village paper had a front page article about the upcoming Carnival, and how "international" that years Carnival would be because of the "king & queen" (or whatever) of the Carnival were African. They must have been the ONLY non-white (aside from some Turkish people) to live anywhere in the vicinity. My first thought was "how patronizing!" and it seemed so much like the couple were purely the "token Africans".

@Anastasia Beaverhausen

Well, of course you're completely right, AB, I was grossly generalizing on sun whorship, and everyone likes a bit of tan now and then. There's no way that statement could be true or apply to all Munich Germans. Yet I'm not racist against Munich German, simply just mouthing off at the tanned ones that push me.

And of course I realize that not everyone in Munich is German. What I am ? I, of course, also cannot ensure that everyone, or even that every 4th person that ever pushed me in a tram was German, because I didn't check their passports or ask their nationalities. But what I do get is a reaction to my presence that is clearly different than others in an U-bahn, because of a combination of my look and my color. You're kidding yourself and have a refusal to understand what people of color are saying about living here if you think otherwise. There's actually no way for you to know unless it's happened to you or around you, is there?

You can say that a lot of people of color who live here are too easily offended and many do cry wolf at any white person that even glances in their direction sometimes - I'll be the first to admit that I've seen people like that around here, I have a lot of acquaintances who are like this, which is VERY frustrating for me, because it certainly doesn't help the situation at all. But, I'm afraid discrimination of non-whites does happen here.

If you read my previous posts, all I'm saying is that 1) it's present, 2) it sucks when it does happen, because 9 times out of 10, people don't even really mean it badly, despite it being ignorant and impolite 3) it's surprising that it happens in a city that's as well educated and well off as Munich, you would think it would happen less here than in other cities, 4) it's annoying and sometimes you just want to vent because at the end of the day, you don't want to be reminded that you look different, you just want to be a person.

And by the way, lots of people live in NYC, which is both bigger and more densely populated than Munich, and you don't get shoved around there. Funny that.

THANK YOU!

I don't think that anyone is saying that at all, but you can't honestly suggest that your experience in Germany as a white, British male is comparable to someone from say, Pakistan. To be fair, you were a visitor in a country whose language is (more or less) the same as yours. Also, have you every lived in Florida proper? Did you ever stop to wonder why the situation was so diffused as soon as you made clear that you were not a white American, but a Brit? Did you ever wonder why you were so instantly more acceptable to a group of unwelcoming black people in a jazz club in Miami then when they didn't realize you were foreigners?

Hey, I absolutely and totally agree with you that people of color shouldn't just scream 'RACIST' at every white person that stares. That's just stupid and I'm tired of it, too, you can believe that.

But, C'mon Now - there are differences in how people get treated based on their skin color.
I'm sure that know and can acknowledge that much.

Yeah, but white as victims of racism happens, too. Don't think that people of color are immune to being racist themselves. There are plenty of that sort, too.

Wow, really? I heard something similar from a friend of mine, as well. Geez.

Isn't racism (or some milder variation of racism) very natural. I mean if one stands out in a crowd of about 100 people he will be noticed, stared and maybe even commented on. Doesn't matter which place you are in. I mean if I were in my country and see a white pass by (which is not so uncommon these days), I would definitely give a second look. So what's wrong if people do the same here.

But one thing I must touch here which Topsy mentioned in an earlier post in this topic. I think the Germans speak to you in English if you are a native speaker. For me its the other way round. I am not saying about people I know.

Well allow me to retort:

No, it's not present, at least not in the form and to the degree that you and others try to claim. You believe it's present but so far haven't been able to show any incident that was clearly racism.

So does getting hit by a car. Since "racism" is defined as "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others", the word implies intent through belief. Therefore unintentional actions cannot be seen as "racist", but you see every bump or stare as just that.

What? Racism has little to do with education. I cite William Shockley and dispose of that argument.

Wah wah wah. Let me tell you about being different. Ask me some time what it was like to be the only white kid in SE Washington DC in the 1980s at a Go-Go concert featuring Rare Essence, Experence Unlimited and Troublefunk. Or maybe ask me about the open and unabashed racist hell I faced when on a date with a black girl at a Richard Pryor movie where once again, I was the only whitey for miles. My stint on a painting crew with a bunch of Salvadorans was a riot.

You could also talk to my white-as-rice friend Tramp. On a JAL flight to Tokyo the stewardess said something to the couple seated next to him, not knowing Tramp's an English and Japanese teacher and knows more about the Japanese language than most Japanese. The stewardess was apologising profusely for having forced them to sit next to the nasty Gaijin. He gave them all a bit of a surprise.

You're going to get stared at and talked about no matter where you go if you look or act different. Fact of life. It's what humas do. Accept the fact that you're different here and that's going to happen or go somewhere it won't.


If you didn't get shoved in New York City, it was for one of two reasons: 1) people carry handguns in NYC [size=1]("An armed society is a polite society." -- Heinlein); and/or 2) you never rode the fucking Subway or tried to walk along Canal Street during rush hour.

If you want to whinge unabatedly without someone replying, don't do it in an open forum. Show me an example of "Raus aus meinem Bus, neger" or the like and I'll gladly change my tune, at least about a particular incident being racist rather than just perceived by you to be so. But calling this town "racist" is bang out of order.

woof.

This thread is so fucked up it is almost hilarious.

Whoasnap. You need to go to your desktop, properties and then to sensitivity. Turn it down a notch or 12. FFS, next you will be here moaning that some whitey got served before you in a bar even though he or she got there after you. Shit happens and get over it... The term "high maintenance" springs to mind. Jesus. Now I have had a go you probably think I am racist as well ffs..

All this public transport shit is just bullshit. People ARE rude on public transport because we do not really like using it, but need to occasionally. People tripping you up? Bollocks. I get tripped up a lot as well. I will also shove you out of the way and shout at you if you block the door whilst I try to get off the carriage. Regardless of young, old, black´, white or pumpernickel.

Your over-sensitivity has blinkered your view totally. Every action is viewed as racist in your eyes and you feel victimised by people that probably really could not give a toss at all... Unbelievable really..

Oi! Keydeck! NO!!!

Sin was born in Kingston

Never happenned BD, after all you have not provided any proof... (this is in keeping with your way of reasoning).

The biggest problem is that caucasians cannot really post anything on this topic as we will just receive the standard "You are not black and therefore do not know what we have to go through" bullshit answer.

Hear hear!
They don't know much about American football here (not that I'm any expert), but I know a little bit about defensive and offensive tackling. I drop a shoulder as the doors are about to open because I can see the idiots ready to push in before I can get off. I will shove through them and I will knock them down on their asses/arses if they try it. I never see their faces.

If you don't believe how non-discriminatory I am in this regard (as are others), ask GeorgiaGirl who I apparently did this to at Karlsplatz once because she wasn't able to get out of the way fast enough. I didn't knock her down but I did shove her aside.

Sorry 'bout that GG but only the strong surv... erm... make it to their connecting S-Bahn.

Edit:

I think my previous post nullifies that craptastic "argument", my having been the only whitey for miles visiting or living in considerably dangerous areas (z.B. SE DC, West Philly, South Chicago, Liberty/Vine/McMicken in Cincinnati, usw.).

woof.

Actually I agree. I had some opinions on the subject but after reading the whole thread can't really be bothered posting them because they won't be considered properly first hand qualified.
Bit lame really. Can't help but think the opportunity to whinge is perhaps more important than what anyone else thinks on the topic.

I love this, I was on the U-Bahn the other day and as the doors opened, some young white gangsta rapper wannabe type dude just pushed straight on, this old biddy picked up her cane and whacked him with in the chest continuously pushing him pack out the doors and out of the way of everyone leaving. Loved the look on his face, pure class.

Bad Doggie. Absolutely.

The "stared at thing" reminded me of last year whilst skiing. We shared a gondaler with some Eastern Europeans that appeared to be a group of "burns" victims and all had had their faces re-built.

A lot of people gave them a double take but I do not suspect it was racism or anything other than they looked different from most others. Hopefully, when they visit other countries they wont think that people are rascist if they get stared at.

Having worked with handicapped people in the past, I know full well that people stare. It does not mean that they hate, dislike or find you unacceptable. In fact some "normal" people dont know to respond to others that are different (whatever the physical difference may be). My mother is wheelchair-bound and now finds it quite amusing when the waiter asks the "normal" person sitting next to her "Errrr, what does the lady want?" (some waiters dont like to ask because she is "different" and therefore they are at a bit of a loss of where to look or what to say)

Rude, yes. Racist no. Overly sensitive...could be!!

Actually, I don't think that most people carry handguns in NYC, do they?
I seem to remember that it carries quite heavy penalties. But that could have been all my crazy NY mates winding me up. And I found the people on the subway in NYC incredibly friendly, lots of witty banter going on, we had a right laugh. Maybe they just didn't like the cut of your jib, BD

Anyway, it's rubbish to say there's no racism in Munich. Of course there is.

You don't know. Therefore you act carefully. Guns, knives, screwdrivers... It's a city of 8 million on very little land.

Did I say there was no racism here? There are always some shits out there, but racism in general? Bollox. You want to see that you go to one of the aforementioned areas I've been in. Or to the American South where, according to a number of friends, it's better because while many are racist, they're at least honest about it. Or go to Japan. Or France. But here? Fuhgeddabowdit.

woof.

Keep up with the topic Topsy. We are not arguing about whether racism is present in Munich or not, but the fact that some people have serious problems defining racism and, therefore, use it as an excuse for everything bad (or at least what they see as bad) that happens to them

Oh, you are so very rational BadDoggie. No-one else seems to be able to reach the awe-inspiring heights of analytical thought that you do. How about a little more heart to temper that "awesome" reason? You don't seem very adept at putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Just ranting about how non-whites are so terribly over-sensitive. Imagine this: you are a bus driver who feels like saying "Raus aus meinem Bus, neger" but don't because you know that if you did you would most likely be in deep legal shit; can you think of some way(s) in which you could anyway make your distaste known, hassle the "neger" a little bit, perhaps? I'd just like to read your written word that perhaps something like racism does actually exist, short of overtly insulting someone or bashing their heads in with a couple of mates. Putting the threshold for racism at "Get off the fucking bus, nigger" seems a little high to me. Rationalise away. Miaow.

Oh soz!
I couldn't be bothered to read all the pages and pages of rants, so I just went by the topic title. Silly me

I haven't read it all either, but the basic theme seems to be that some people consider it to be racist here 'cos they get looked at in a funny way.

I remember when I worked at the dorms at the University in Utah - this one guy was a real jerk. Had a major chip on his shoulder about anyone and everything. He snotted off about something one evening, can't remember what, something about no vacuums being available to loan or something, and when I told him again I was busy, he said (seriously here) "You hate me, too, because I'm Jewish!"
I almost fell over laughing - for one, how on earth was this cowgirl supposed to know if he was jewish or not and, two, anyone who has ever lived in or near Utah knows that being Jewish is not what people are wondering - you are either mormon or you are not. black, white, red, yellow, foreign or not - that doesn't really matter. So I told him if anyone hated him, it was because he was an asshole and probably for no other reason. Strange - we got along ok after that.

Thanks Peepers. Someone finally said it.
Compassion, it's a skill. Not everyone can cope with it.

Aw, C'mon, Peace out, dude - don't be so miserable.
It's not about that for everyone. Why are you taking this so personally?
It's apparently not happening to you.

Comments like these just demonstrate that racism will always be apart of society. I never got the cred I deserved when I was rapping and beatboxin' back in the day. they always said I was a wannabe. Wannabe my ass, I was the shit...but due to this razizm thing I never got my due. But I will be heard, oh yes, I will be heard.

Well if you're gonna call yourself brokenm instead of mnm what do you expect ?

Yeah, I used to be Iced Milk, but the dairy association didn't want anything to do with me. But I have to give props to mnm. the idea of being any color on the outside but brown on the inside...genius

hmm...well I do not look German at all, I am immediately recognizable as a 'foreigner'. yet each time I get shoved/stepped on/not served first in a bar/my public transport tickets extra-scrutinized/stared at/etc here in Munich, I do not shout 'racism'.

if one looks different from the 'majority norm' one can expect to receive more than average attention, I accept this.

if it's a big issue for you then I'd suggest leaving to be honest.

I will probably get accused of being northernist now or something...

Amazing. Amazing how you have managed to get so worked up by a situation that you "imagine" but has never happened, to your knowledge. In the imaginary situation, you "imagine" that you are imagining that you can imagine that you know what a bus driver is thinking though the imaginary bus driver has said nothing, just looked or stared.
BD told you that he had never hear the "Raus aus" etc which is a fact and you have come up with a totally imaginary situation with an imaginary bus driver...superb!!

Oh Jesus H Corbett.. It has now reached this has it? Everybody is actually racist but they choose subtle ways to carry out their hobby so they do not get caught??? Oh please. Save me the amateur dramatics... German bus drivers generally hassle everyone they can because they are an unfriendly bunch. They will try and make anyone look totally stupid because it is the only bit of enterainment they get during the day.

I really hope we do not meet as I am scared shitless of addressing you incorrectly or looking at you a bit strangely and then having my name dragged through the mud because of the disrespectful and racist way I treated you...